I dont think their is a single GM that would say "give me Phil Kessel over Wayne Simmonds"
- opeth_pa

I do.

I do.
- MJL

We can agree to disagree then.

First off, he always has a lot of scoring chances. The problem? He doesn't score. I get it, people here like him. But the blind love for him is scary.
- Flyers1218

Agreed. Talk about hands of steel. No offensive talent...not from this side of the TV at least. Nothing to see here, move along....move along.

Who is the prospect with 1C upside that Toronto got for Kessel?

Kessel is a better player than Simmonds.
- MJL

4 million dollars better?

Again...don't lose sight of the contract.

Kapanen was viewed as a top 6 wing in the making at the time of the trade.

Was Sidney Crosby ever chased down on a clear breakaway by Kevin Klein after a 15 foot head start?

Giroux I believe best case scenario could get back to 70 pts
- Just5

i dont think he had a breakaway during johnstons tenure.

I dont think their is a single GM that would say "give me Phil Kessel over Wayne Simmonds"
- opeth_pa

"Give me Mr. No Intangibles, Phil Kessel, after a down year, 1 year into an 8 year contract, with a $7 mil cap hit over the similarly scoring His Intangibles Holiness, Wayne Simmonds, with 2 years at a potential cost of under $2 mil!"

(me being a fake NHL GM)

4 million dollars better?

Again...don't lose sight of the contract.

Kapanen was viewed as a top 6 wing in the making at the time of the trade.
- Just5

Did you forget what you said?


"A young prospect center that you believe can fill a top 6 role with 1C upside plus a first...bare minimal. "

4 million dollars better?

Again...don't lose sight of the contract.

Kapanen was viewed as a top 6 wing in the making at the time of the trade.
- Just5

kessel also had a ton of leverage based on teams he could pick, and basically everyone knowing that toronto was basically forcing him out of town. combined with his larger cap hit that limited it even more.

with simmonds, i dont know what type of NMC he has. but the flyers dont HAVE to trade him and the contract is perhaps the best in the league. so the market will be much more open. i think simmonds could bring a bigger haul than what kessel got.

i dont think he had a breakaway during johnstons tenure.
- stayinthefnnet

I can rule Hakstol out....with more examples

4 million dollars better?

Again...don't lose sight of the contract.

Kapanen was viewed as a top 6 wing in the making at the time of the trade.
- Just5

Simmonds is the better value contract now, but he'll have to be re-signed eventually.

kessel also had a ton of leverage based on teams he could pick, and basically everyone knowing that toronto was basically forcing him out of town. combined with his larger cap hit that limited it even more.

with simmonds, i dont know what type of NMC he has. but the flyers dont HAVE to trade him and the contract is perhaps the best in the league. so the market will be much more open. i think simmonds could bring a bigger haul than what kessel got.
- stayinthefnnet

Exactly, which is the whole basis of my argument. But because I don't have an in depth scouting report on prospects around the league....it apparently invalidates my opinion.

I dont think their is a single GM that would say "give me Phil Kessel over Wayne Simmonds"
- opeth_pa

Even Phil Kessel almost choked on a Tim Horton's doughnut after hearing he's better than Wayne Simmonds.

Who is the prospect with 1C upside that Toronto got for Kessel?

Kessel is a better player than Simmonds.
- MJL

I had to look it up because for the life of me I couldn't recall who was involved in the trade

Phil Kessel
Tim Erixon
Tyler Biggs
2016 conditional 2nd round pick

for

Kasperi Kapanen
Scott Harrington
Nick Spaling
2016 conditional 1st round pick
2016 3rd round pick

Exactly, which is the whole basis of my argument. But because I don't have an in depth scouting report on prospects around the league....it apparently invalidates my opinion.
- Just5

i can understand the hesitancy to trade him for an unknown, but realistically, no matter what color chip you want to call the prospect, hes going to be largely an unknown quantity. you might be able to get someone with a greater likelihood, but no one is going to trade a guaranteed already established top flight center. if youre going to trade for the chance there is going to be some risk involved.

Exactly, which is the whole basis of my argument. But because I don't have an in depth scouting report on prospects around the league....it apparently invalidates my opinion.
- Just5

Your opinion that Simmonds is a valuable trade piece because of the quality of player that he is, and due to his contract is not invalid. Naming specific prospects on other teams and labeling it a good deal is the issue.

i can understand the hesitancy to trade him for an unknown, but realistically, no matter what color chip you want to call the prospect, hes going to be largely an unknown quantity. you might be able to get someone with a greater likelihood, but no one is going to trade a guaranteed already established top flight center. if youre going to trade for the chance there is going to be some risk involved.
- stayinthefnnet

I agree, and that's really my point. If you trade Simmonds for prospects and miss on those prospects, that's a problem.

I had to look it up because for the life of me I couldn't recall who was involved in the trade

Phil Kessel
Tim Erixon
Tyler Biggs
2016 conditional 2nd round pick

for

Kasperi Kapanen
Scott Harrington
Nick Spaling
2016 conditional 1st round pick
2016 3rd round pick
- nastyflyergirl

i refuse to believe that simmonds moved doesnt yield a bigger haul. there may be a lot of parts on the surface but its a lot of filler.

I don't know why we have to trade Simmonds for a young 1C and if not that, we can't trade him, even though we are in a pickle with his future contract and age and need upgrades across the board. Do elite potential young wingers not count as good enough? If you want and only want an elite center prospect, like a Keller, those are not available in trades, so it's pointless. You'd have to have a top 10 pick packaged in if you want to try to acquire your own top center prospect, and that's no sure thing either, and you would still want a blue chip prospect in the package too, a la the Carter trade.

We mentioned Minnesota. If a deal was centered around Kaprizov and another prospect, like Luke Kunin, I'd do that trade, though it may be a tough ask. Even Kaprizov+Greenway if we couldn't get them to agree to that is good value. I mentioned Edmonton and PJ as the type of centerpiece I'm looking for. It has to be that level. And I bet multiple GMs would pay that price.

I agree, and that's really my point. If you trade Simmonds for prospects and miss on those prospects, that's a problem.
- MJL

and its understandable to be hesitant. i dont know what i would want to do either. but if youre hell set on making a trade, he is the best bullet in the arsenal by far.

I agree, and that's really my point. If you trade Simmonds for prospects and miss on those prospects, that's a problem.
- MJL

Of course. Any trade you make....pro/prospect/or pick...is a risk that it won't work. If there weren't risk. You and I could be GM

Of course. Any trade you make....pro/prospect/or pick...is a risk that it won't work. If there weren't risk. You and I could be GM
- Just5

Well I'm not trying to be a GM by naming specific names, and calling it a good deal. That's the point.

and its understandable to be hesitant. i dont know what i would want to do either. but if youre hell set on making a trade, he is the best bullet in the arsenal by far.
- stayinthefnnet

I think everyone agrees that Simmonds is a valuable trade chip.

i refuse to believe that simmonds moved doesnt yield a bigger haul. there may be a lot of parts on the surface but its a lot of filler.
- stayinthefnnet

if that was the return for Simmonds I'd be pissed. I imagine Kessel's salary had a bit to do with the return.

The flaw in your thinking is, Bellemare won't produce the same offensive numbers while checking opposing top talents like Couturier does. You're sour on Schenn because he's poor defensively at center. OK. Bellemare might do an alright job (I guess, I don't agree) but his game will also be one dimensional.
- SuperSchennBros

Umm what offensive numbers? If he were healthy he'd be on pace for 16 goals. He's played nearly 400 games and he's got 65 goals. I'll never get the Coots obsession. Btw, Bergeron plays against the oppositions best players too and he has scored 30 goals three times. Enough with the Coots excuses.

I don't know why we have to trade Simmonds for a young 1C and if not that, we can't trade him, even though we are in a pickle with his future contract and age. Do elite potential young wingers not count as good enough? If you want and only want an elite center prospect, like a Keller, those are not available in trades, so it's pointless.

We mentioned Minnesota. If a deal was centered around Kaprizov and another prospect, like Luke Kunin, I'd do that trade, though it may be a tough ask. Even Kaprizov+Greenway if we couldn't get them to agree to that is good value. I mentioned Edmonton and PJ as the type of centerpiece I'm looking for. It has to be that level. And I bet multiple GMs would pay that price.
- Mononoke

You're in bed with Keller. And understandably so. But Keller being immovable I think has more to do with the team that he's on. A team being ripped to the bones in a rebuild. If Keller were a MN prospect...you wouldn't think he'd be available in a 1 for 1?