The point is these men had no career!!!! Mario made them 50 Goal scorers!!!!!! Kurri had a career post Wayne!!!! What is it that you don't get??? The guy had no prime because of injury, cancer and retirement.
- Brianandr1

They certainly had careers. Mario just made them a lot better for a period of time. Jagr probably had a hand in that too. Like I said, so what? That's what great players do. It doesn't actually prove anything, other than that Mario was great...which we all knew already.

Kurri with Wayne and without wayne was drastically different. As for Rob Brown, that had more so to do with the game changing, the same thing that happened to Brown happened to Daniel Marois, Gary Leeman, JIMMY CARSON.

Look at Bernie Nichols, Luc Robitaille with and without Wayne too.
- mykokes

No no no!!

Rob brown!!

My home team guy is the bestest!! Kevin Stevens !!!

They certainly had careers. Mario just made them a lot better for a period of time. Jagr probably had a hand in that too. Like I said, so what? That's what great players do. It doesn't actually prove anything, other than that Mario was great...which we all knew already.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

Wayne Gretzky made Blair macdonald a 46 goal scorer!!
Speaking of no career after that...
He's on a whole other level of insignificance as an NHL 'Ers than either of those two

I would back that 100%, and say that like in any sport the era plays a factor.

Know why wideouts don't get drafted as high these days in football? Because with all the rules protecting QBs and wideouts, they simply aren't as valuable anymore. Certain ones do well but they aren't as godly as guys like Rice and Carter were a generation ago.

Hockey has become a far more defensive minded game in its evolution, and there is no real way to know how good Crosby would be in Gretzkys era or vice versa.

One thing we can all agree on: Mcdavid would the most dominant player in any era, and would be a better wide receiver than Jerry Rice.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

I have deep feelings towards you right now

Connor > rice

It's not an ad hominem if it's true.

What exactly is your point here anyways? That Mario is better because of Rob Brown and Kevin Stevens? It's hard to sort out amongst the jumble of caps and punctuation.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

Kevin Stevens fell apart because he was a power forward. Not because of not being with Mario.

They certainly had careers. Mario just made them a lot better for a period of time. Jagr probably had a hand in that too. Like I said, so what? That's what great players do. It doesn't actually prove anything, other than that Mario was great...which we all knew already.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

Rob brown with Mario 49 g 115 Pts
Out of the league a year later!
post Mario ... 18 g 42 pts HMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!

Kurri with Wayne 87 - 58g 108 pts (and other years were higher!)
88--89- 44g 102 pts
Post Wayne!!!!!!!
89-90 33g 93 pts
Yes that's a huge difference Please explain>>>>

The point is these men had no career!!!! Mario made them 50 Goal scorers!!!!!! Kurri had a career post Wayne!!!! What is it that you don't get??? The guy had no prime because of injury, cancer and retirement.
- Brianandr1

Stevens had some great seasons playing with John Cullen and Mark Recchi while Mario was hurt.

Ok, lets end this debate.....


Bossy is better than all, sucks his career had to end earlier than most...

Rob brown with Mario 49 g 115 Pts
post Mario ... 18 g 42 pts HMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!

Kurri with Wayne 87 - 58g 108 pts (and other years were higher!)
88--89- 44g 102 pts
Post Wayne!!!!!!!
89-90 33g 93 pts
Yes that's a huge difference Please explain>>>>
- Brianandr1

Post Wayne, Kurri was with hart winner Mark Messier...again the brown fall off had to do with the euro invasion and speed of the game increasing. 92/93 was some of the fastest hockey we've ever seen. Brown simply couldn't skate, and he wasn't alone. Brown was still a ppg in Hartford....but again, the game changed.

Call me when Crosby does things like hit 2000 pts. and any one of a hundred other records he holds.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

Scoring is down like 30% from when Gretzky played. What Crosby and Ovechkin have done in a lower scoring era is equally impressive.

And the award for most over use of the phrase "the thing is..." goes to....
- HockeyMo

You're right, but I don't have an editor, so oh well.

Stevens had some great seasons playing with John Cullen and Mark Recchi while Mario was hurt.
- mykokes

Something something, home team guy, something something . Followed by a few exclamation points.

In your face

Something something, home team guy, something something . Followed by a few exclamation points.

In your face
- HB77

Stevens had 2 50 goal seasons with Mario (part of seasons)
2 40 goal seasons with Mario (part of seasons)

Post: One season with the Rangers 23 g... otherwise very little... You just keep surprising me???? WOW!!! Please keep making my argument for me!!!!!

This!!!


Insane absolutist ideologues



No middle. No critical thinking. Just catch phrases and a distaste for anything that might hint of the other sides ideals. Regardless of it has any merit


Libtard!
Commie


Fascist!
Bible thumpers!!



Lame
- HB77

I am with you 100% here, but the problem is that when an extremist is in power this doesn't work.

IN a normal environment, sure, both conservatives and liberals have excellent points. In a normal environment, I would be as disgusted with some liberals than I am with conservatives.

However, Trump lies "at least somewhat" over 80% of the time. He very clearly has the interest of billionaires ahead of normal people, doesn't believe in protecting the environment, displays racist and facist and authoritarian tendencies, has a history of sexual assault, has zero moral authority and may have committed treason.

To suggest that both sides are equally bad is, at this point, absolutely ____ ridiculous.

Something something, home team guy, something something . Followed by a few exclamation points.

In your face
- HB77

So in other words no answer!!!!???? got it!!!

Post Wayne, Kurri was with hart winner Mark Messier...again the brown fall off had to do with the euro invasion and speed of the game increasing. 92/93 was some of the fastest hockey we've ever seen. Brown simply couldn't skate, and he wasn't alone. Brown was still a ppg in Hartford....but again, the game changed.
- mykokes

Due to???? 50 g to no career??????

Look this is for hockey not your political views, way to blow your own horn and talk about your M.A . So because you spent 6 years learning to become a Profesional researcher you're never wrong? What a pompous fool you are, you can discern the truth from lies OK am I lying or telling the truth when I say you're awesome? Expressing ones point of view is fine, but if it's politics then take it to a political site. Most people come here to talk hockey and get away from all the crap we are inundated with dailey. It's not a bad thing to look at issues from the other side but this isn't the place for it. On a hockey note if Crosby played in the 80s all things the same he would dominate, but it's also why you can't compare, today's athletes train all year round and back then it was a cigarette and beer post game for half the guys.
- Upstate_isles

The fact that I have an MA has nothing to do with me never being wrong. It's a point that I was making against the idea that someone can just say the media is 'fake news' or that my fact and science based arguments are not 'liberal propaganda'.

If it comes off as braggy, I don't really care. If I tell Patrick O'Sulliven he's wrong, he tells me to shut up because he played in the NHL. So, if someone wants to ignore facts and reason and spout off insane propaganda while ironically accusing me of being a bad critical thinker, I get to point out that I'm in the NHL of critical thinking and research.

This doesn't mean I research everything or can never be wrong. But of course, no one would stupid enough to think that's what I meant.

Scoring is down like 30% from when Gretzky played. What Crosby and Ovechkin have done in a lower scoring era is equally impressive.
- james_tanner1

Scoring is down 30%.

Crosby's best season is 120 pts. Ovechkins is 112. Gretzky's best season is 215.

I don't math terribly well, but it would seem that a 50% difference in best seasons compared to a 30% scoring decrease doesn't really back up your point.

Conversely, any player playing against weaker competition will fare better.

Don't tell Tanner that. It is just one of the many things he chooses to ignore.
- Aetherial

I do not choose to ignore it. I have seen proof that it doesn't matter long term. Google it, it's not hard to find. Furthermore, here's a little exercise to help figure out how much QOC matters:

Phil Kessel was a 35 goal scoring top ten in points player while being the only player teams focused on when they played Toronto.

Now that he is on a third line and teams who defend against the Penguins put their top two defensive units out against Crosby and Malkin, why doesn't Phil Kessel have 50 or 60 goals and 150 points?

He's still a top-ten scorer. It's just that in the NHL you can't really exploit other NHL players because even "bad" NHL players are actually pretty awesome and the differences between them are far more minute than most people imagine.

So in other words no answer!!!!???? got it!!!
- Brianandr1

Rob Brown and Kevin Stevens having a couple good seasons with Mario (and Jagr) doesn't prove a thing except that he made players around him better. Already well established. Just shut up already.

Rob Brown and Kevin Stevens having a couple good seasons with Mario (and Jagr) doesn't prove a thing except that he made players around him better. Already well established. Just shut up already.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

I often wonder how many points Gary Suter cost Wayne.

Same way I wonder how many points smoking, cancer and a bad back cost Mario.

Rob Brown and Kevin Stevens having a couple good seasons with Mario (and Jagr) doesn't prove a thing except that he made players around him better. Already well established. Just shut up already.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

I remember Cullen, Rechi and Stevens having a great season or two together. 90/91 Stevens scored 40 pretty much without mario.

Hmm

Interesting point. Never thought about it like that.
And yeah, you were fine. Made sense.

The first retort That comes to mind is that there are so many players at such a high level nowadays. Which might potentially make it tougher to win consecutive art Ross's year after year
- HB77

Most of them weren't even close. There's more then just points to evaluate the best but the percentage that Wayne and Mario were ahead of 2nd or 10th in the scoring race is ridiculous. There's more teams so you could argue it's weaker competition even though everyone is better as s whole. Also there's no clutching and grabbing now so you could also argue Wayne and Mario would be even better today

I often wonder how many points Gary Suter cost Wayne.

Same way I wonder how many points smoking, cancer and a bad back cost Mario.
- mykokes

Brown and Stevens have no career minus Mario... Brown was out of the league within a few years and Stevens had 4 40-50 + seasons and one.... one!!! 20 g season minus!!!!! You guys are delusional!!!!!!!!!

Brown and Stevens have no career minus Mario... Brown was out of the league within a few years and Stevens had 4 40-50 + seasons and one.... one!!! 20 g season minus!!!!! You guys are delusional!!!!!!!!!
- Brianandr1

You are the Penguins version of iggysbff.