I can break down the severe drop off Kurri experienced post-Gretz if you like, as well as a number of other Oilers.

Can you please write a few more words in caps and include some more exclamation points and question marks. I might understand better.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

Can you breakdown Rob Brown or Kevin Steven's "severe drop off" post Mario? Please do... Ill read. I did not think so...lololololol...both had 50 seasons... Stevens more then 1

I can break down the severe drop off Kurri experienced post-Gretz if you like, as well as a number of other Oilers.

Can you please write a few more words in caps and include some more exclamation points and question marks. I might understand better.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

It's fair TOO SAY that they both brought other players to a new level !!!!!! How old you Not BENEFIT playing with a player like that????? I did half caps for both of you as I'm neutral

Also a far more vicious league, don't forget that.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

It may have been more dirty.

Was it more dangerous or wearing though? PLayers are so big and fast now that ordinary checks can lead to concussions. Crosby himself was the best example.

So I think the players may have been nastier but I dont remember the headshots, at speed, that we have seen the last couple years. The poop we see now is going to end someone's life one day.

It's fair TOO SAY that they both brought other players to a new level !!!!!! How old you Not BENEFIT playing with a player like that????? I did half caps for both of you as I'm neutral
- Upstate_isles

Right


If you're playing alongside an all time great, stands to reason it's gonna help


I can guarantee that my boy patty maroon is enjoying playing alongside mcjesus right now.

People forget how nasty the game was back in those days. Crosby has been accused of being rather whiny in a day and age where the rules protect the stars. Gretz played in an era where bench clearing brawls ween't unusual, padding was minimal and brutal thugs made NHL rosters simply because they were brutal thugs. It wasn't just Semenko protecting him either. Gretzky knew how to avoid trouble.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

One the other hand, enforcers were allowed to do their job, and the list of Gretzky enforcers was long and distinguished.

Furthermore, there were "unwritten rules" that you don't hit the stars in the league. Remember that Leaf guy (mclean?), who train-wrecked Grtezky, and never played another game in the NHL. He was not a goon type, he just obliterated the wrong guy.

Right


If you're playing alongside an all time great, stands to reason it's gonna help


I promise you that my boy patty maroon is enjoying playing alongside mcjesus right now.
- HB77

Again Oiler fan please explain ROB Brown and Kevin Stevens? NO career post Mario!!!! Kurri had some! Please I'm listening...

Right


If you're playing alongside an all time great, stands to reason it's gonna help


I can gaurantee that my boy patty maroon is enjoying playing alongside mcjesus right now.
- HB77

I will say this Tavares has made Matt moulson a lot of money pa parenteau as well, and currently Josh bailey. ANY player is going to have better numbers with better players

Again Oiler fan please explain ROB Brown and Kevin Stevens? NO career post Mario!!!! Kurri had some! Please I'm listening...
- Brianandr1

You're a penguin fan stroking Mario calling out oiler fans for stroking gretz ...?

Hypocrite much ?

Anyways- I'm over it bud

It may have been more dirty.

Was it more dangerous or wearing though? PLayers are so big and fast now that ordinary checks can lead to concussions. Crosby himself was the best example.

So I think the players may have been nastier but I dont remember the headshots, at speed, that we have seen the last couple years. The poop we see now is going to end someone's life one day.
- Aetherial

Guys 'got their bell rung' a lot before we understood PCS. I saw a list somewhere of the amount of players they thought might have endured concussions through the years and it was staggering. Back then, a headshot was just a good check. No one even thought of it.

Ill hand it to you Tanner you sure don't shy away from click bate titles.

Dunno. I think his playmaking would be fairly comparable today. But his goal totals would almost certainly take a big hit

Goalies are on a whole other level now
- HB77

I believe he would have nowhere near the same numbers.

As far as the debate goes, because we can never know for sure, the only way we can begin to compare players from different times is to look at how they were relative to their peers during their time.

Nobody was like Gretzky, relative to his peers, over that length of time.

Guys 'got their bell rung' a lot before we understood PCS. I saw a list somewhere of the amount of players they thought might have endured concussions through the years and it was staggering. Back then, a headshot was just a good check. No one even thought of it.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

There is some truth to that, and maybe I just don't remember it because we weren't paying attention to it as much back then.

Can you breakdown Rob Brown or Kevin Steven's "severe drop off" post Mario? Please do... Ill read. I did not think so...lololololol...both had 50 seasons... Stevens more then 1
- Brianandr1

So he made a couple of guys better than they would. Thats what great players do. I don't think anyone is arguing that Mario wasn't great. He's literally the only forward I would put on Gretzkys level.

I won't include Orr in the discussion because he was a dman who literally revolutionized an entire position. This discussion is already murky enough.

I will say this Tavares has made Matt moulson a lot of money pa parenteau as well, and currently Josh bailey. ANY player is going to have better numbers with better players
- Upstate_isles

Conversely, any player playing against weaker competition will fare better.

Don't tell Tanner that. It is just one of the many things he chooses to ignore.

So he made a couple of guys better than they would. Thats what great players do. I don't think anyone is arguing that Mario wasn't great. He's literally the only forward I would put on Gretzkys level.

I won't include Orr in the discussion because he was a dman who literally revolutionized an entire position. This discussion is already murky enough.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

I think Mario was as talented and dominant as Gretzky, but not for as long and not quite at the exact same time.

For sure he's as good as gretz or Lemieux


Put him that era and I'll bet he scores at a comparable rate


The game is exponentially better and tougher to score in today. It's not even close actually
- HB77

Too get an idea of how much better Mario and Wayne (pre suter hit) were than anyone else, Mario left the game for like 4 years, came back and was instantly the best player in the league, and his team (Jagr on it). 2000-2001, clutch and grab era , four years away from the game and he still was scoring at a 140 point pace. There are no comparables to Wayne and Mario, period.

You're a penguin fan stroking Mario calling out oiler fans for stroking gretz ...?

Hypocrite much ?

Anyways- I'm over it bud
- HB77

Another words ... Avoid the facts!!!!! ADDRESS THE ISSUES!!!! Rob Brown and Kevin Stevens vs Kurri POST Mario/Wayne????? You call me a hypocrite??? Fine I'm still talking evidence!!!! Please address that issue!!!!! Your Ad hominems are amusing

I believe he would have nowhere near the same numbers.

As far as the debate goes, because we can never know for sure, the only way we can begin to compare players from different times is to look at how they were relative to their peers during their time.

Nobody was like Gretzky, relative to his peers, over that length of time.
- Aetherial

Of course not. His numbers were insane even for that era, but in todays league he would clearly have lesser numbers.

Did someone bring this up a while back? Plateaus like 200+ points and 90+ goals will never be seen again, unless rules change drastically or they greatly reduce the size of goalie equipment.

A 36 year old, worn down Wayne Gretzky led the league in assists, and was 3rd in points behind Jagr and Forsberg. THat's Wayne Gretzky at his worst, 3rd in the league in scoring. Crosby can't touch that.

Another words ... Avoid the facts!!!!! ADDRESS THE ISSUES!!!! Rob Brown and Kevin Stevens vs Kurri POST Mario/Wayne????? You call me a hypocrite??? Fine I'm still talking evidence!!!! Please address that issue!!!!! Your Ad hominems are amusing
- Brianandr1

It's not an ad hominem if it's true.

What exactly is your point here anyways? That Mario is better because of Rob Brown and Kevin Stevens? It's hard to sort out amongst the jumble of caps and punctuation.

A 36 year old, worn down Wayne Gretzky led the league in assists, and was 3rd in points behind Jagr and Forsberg. THat's Wayne Gretzky at his worst, 3rd in the league in scoring. Crosby can't touch that.
- mykokes

Yeah but Rob Brown and Kevin Stevens...

Another words ... Avoid the facts!!!!! ADDRESS THE ISSUES!!!! Rob Brown and Kevin Stevens vs Kurri POST Mario/Wayne????? You call me a hypocrite??? Fine I'm still talking evidence!!!! Please address that issue!!!!! Your Ad hominems are amusing
- Brianandr1

Kurri with Wayne and without wayne was drastically different. As for Rob Brown, that had more so to do with the game changing, the same thing that happened to Brown happened to Daniel Marois, Gary Leeman, JIMMY CARSON.

Look at Bernie Nichols, Luc Robitaille with and without Wayne too.

This isn't about Wayne vs Mario...this is Wayne and Mario vs Sid.

And sid isn't on their level. Maybe top 5 forward all time, but Wayne and Mario and maybe Howe are at the top of the pyramid. Wayne especially.....Count the Hart Trophies, and Art Ross's.

I think Mario was as talented and dominant as Gretzky, but not for as long and not quite at the exact same time.
- Aetherial

I would back that 100%, and say that like in any sport the era plays a factor.

Know why wideouts don't get drafted as high these days in football? Because with all the rules protecting QBs and wideouts, they simply aren't as valuable anymore. Certain ones do well but they aren't as godly as guys like Rice and Carter were a generation ago.

Hockey has become a far more defensive minded game in its evolution, and there is no real way to know how good Crosby would be in Gretzkys era or vice versa.

One thing we can all agree on: Mcdavid would the most dominant player in any era, and would be a better wide receiver than Jerry Rice.

It's not an ad hominem if it's true.

What exactly is your point here anyways? That Mario is better because of Rob Brown and Kevin Stevens? It's hard to sort out amongst the jumble of caps and punctuation.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

The point is these men had no career!!!! Mario made them 50 Goal scorers!!!!!! Kurri had a career post Wayne!!!! What is it that you don't get??? The guy had no prime because of injury, cancer and retirement.