You are generalizing Corsi.

There are individual corsi measurements and Fenwick measurements

There are WOWY's, which stands for with and without you, that measure the difference from when a player is on/off the ice relative to other teammates
- sbroads24

Plus minus can/does the exact same thing, expect for a more important category than shots, goals.

Has anyone seen the Wes McCauley fighting penalty call.


The mortal combat remix is gold.
- ImThatGuy

Has anyone seen the Wes McCauley fighting penalty call.


The mortal combat remix is gold.
- ImThatGuy

There was an interesting call by a ref during one of the recent Sabres games. I think it may have been the one for fighting between Dlo and Boll on Thursday, but I can't remember offhand.

You are generalizing Corsi.

There are individual corsi measurements and Fenwick measurements

There are WOWY's, which stands for with and without you, that measure the difference from when a player is on/off the ice relative to other teammates
- sbroads24

This is my problem with these stats...
for example:

Risto is doing his job, has his man tied up & boxed out
A shot comes in from the opposite wing
We'd all agree that if it's a goal, it's not Risto's fault
So why should we hold the "shot" against him?

It doesn't make sense

It's like giving credit to a defenseman who is still in his own end when a forward blocks a shot from the point, races down on a 2 on 1 & passes to another forward who scores

According to your stats,
All 3 get credit
But according to actually watching,
It's the 2 forwards that should get the credit

Plus minus can/does the exact same thing, expect for a more important category than shots, goals.
- Mentalorgasm5

Someone dumps it in from center ice and its on net.... affects the corsi.

Someone dumps it in from center ice and its on net.... affects the corsi.
- CoHo_to_B-Lo

Somebody scored an empty net goal, it's a minus!!

See how that works?

Someone dumps it in from center ice and its on net.... affects the corsi.
- CoHo_to_B-Lo

Someone shots from the blueline, it affects the Corsi. This happens a lot. That's why I wanted someone to explain to me how Corsi and Fenwick are relevant to an individual's performance, but how plus/minus is not. They are all team stats in my book.

Somebody scored an empty net goal, it's a minus!!

See how that works?
- sbroads24

Yeah...
they're both HORRIBLE ways to judge an individual's performance

Yeah...
they're both HORRIBLE ways to judge an individual's performance
- jdfitz77

Disagree

Somebody scored an empty net goal, it's a minus!!

See how that works?
- sbroads24

So that happens POSSIBLY one time at most per game..... where as shots can come from the other end, center ice, horrible angles and are all factored into Corsi. That's why there are multiple stats to be looked at collectively. No one here is right or wrong. all stats need to be looked at PLUS the eye test. Saying you can base how good a player is off of one or two stats, when hockey is a TEAM sport is ludicrous.

Somebody scored an empty net goal, it's a minus!!

See how that works?
- sbroads24

Yes, it shows how both are bad indicators of an individuals performance. And ENGs are much less frequent of an occurrence than random shots on or near the net.

Yeah...
they're both HORRIBLE ways to judge an individual's performance
- jdfitz77

People are trying to breakdown hockey like they do in baseball. It just doesn't work that way. Hockey is a not a one on one, play by play sport like baseball.

People are trying to breakdown hockey like they do in baseball. It just doesn't work that way. Hockey is a not a one on one, play by play sport like baseball.
- Mentalorgasm5

Exactly. It is a TEAM sport and besides basketball, relies the most on teamates.

Yes, it shows how both are bad indicators of an individuals performance. And ENGs are much less frequent of an occurrence than random shots on or near the net.
- Mentalorgasm5

Again, you are generalizing Corsi. If you don't think it's useful, cool. We disagree

Exactly. It is a TEAM sport and besides basketball, relies the most on teamates.
- CoHo_to_B-Lo

Exactly, you can literally dissect exact situations in baseball. It can't be down in a free flowing sport like hockey, there are too many variables.

Disagree
- sbroads24

Evander Kane is 3rd in 5V5 ICorsi/60 (Minimum 500 minutes played)

Evander Kane is 3rd in 5V5 ICorsi/60 (Minimum 500 minutes played)

- ImThatGuy

I believe it.

Again, you are generalizing Corsi. If you don't think it's useful, cool. We disagree
- sbroads24

No, I think its useful, but only as a gauge of team play. I could just as easily say you are generalizing plus/minus. That's why I truthfully want someone to show why plus/minus is a horrible individual stat, yet Corsi and Fenwick are great.

I think you can look at Corsi, Fenwick, and Time on Attack (even Plus/Minus), and it will immediately tell you what teams are good, bad, average, dominate, or just piss poor. But no one can show me, effectively, how Corsi and Fenwick, among other stats, are truly great indicators for individual performance.

Again, you are generalizing Corsi. If you don't think it's useful, cool. We disagree
- sbroads24

Please respond to my example then & tell me why it's correct to hold Risto accountable for the shot on goal

People are trying to breakdown hockey like they do in baseball. It just doesn't work that way. Hockey is a not a one on one, play by play sport like baseball.
- Mentalorgasm5

Couldn't agree more

Couldn't agree more
- jdfitz77

All this agreement is throwing me off.

This is my problem with these stats...
for example:

Risto is doing his job, has his man tied up & boxed out
A shot comes in from the opposite wing
We'd all agree that if it's a goal, it's not Risto's fault
So why should we hold the "shot" against him?

It doesn't make sense

It's like giving credit to a defenseman who is still in his own end when a forward blocks a shot from the point, races down on a 2 on 1 & passes to another forward who scores

According to your stats,
All 3 get credit
But according to actually watching,
It's the 2 forwards that should get the credit
- jdfitz77

What if Risto, not pressuring the forward entering the zone, allowed an easy zone entry, which allowed some opposition zone time, which led to 3 shot attempts?

What if that routinely happened, which is why almost everyone on the team, has more shot attempts against WITH Risto on the ice.

The enzo sauce commercial is a little weird

What if Risto, not pressuring the forward entering the zone, allowed an easy zone entry, which allowed some opposition zone time, which led to 3 shot attempts?

What if that routinely happened, which is why almost everyone on the team, has more shot attempts against WITH Risto on the ice.
- sbroads24

But what if those shot attempts came from non high scoring area? Pretty much what a defensemen is supposed to do?

I mean I get what you are saying but this whole advanced stat thing comes up with rhetoric like Risto is a 5/6 defensemen

But what if those shot attempts came from non high scoring area? Pretty much what a defensemen is supposed to do?

I mean I get what you are saying but this whole advanced stat thing comes up with rhetoric like Risto is a 5/6 defensemen
- Stripes77

If this team had 6 Ristos, we are a playoff team.