Kuhnhackl is basically his replacement. It's December and I'm not too worried about shot blocking or the PK just yet. They proved last spring they're capable of blocking a ton of shots when it matters.

Leading the division and 2 pts out of leading the East makes it hard to be upset about anything....(even though their overall performance has been uneven).

Not taking so many dumb penalties will solve a lot of problems too.
- madmike71

Kuhnhackl is getting hacked. I believe he has more skill than rust.

Crosby and Letang came from the same draft.
- Dcoms

Ah my mistake, I thought he was in 2006.

In GMJR's first 2 years, he has made many moves very similar to the moves Sheri made from 2008-2011, when Shero believed it was their best shot at winning the cup. That is my point. Shero was given Fleury, Geno, and Sid, Shero drafted Staal and Letang. Shero did just as much building for the 09 cup team as JR did last year. GMJR was given Fleury, Geno, Sid, Letang. Yes Shero had his faults with the Pens, but he also went to back to back cups and won one. JR had many faults with Carolina. Every GM has faults. I mean, I liked back to back cup appearances and an eastern conference finals. 3 deep trips in the playoffs is pretty solid.

I defend Shero because people don't understand that this is still part of Shero's team and that's exactly why GMJR acknowledged it when he won GM of the year. I'm really confused as to how you don't see that.
- j.boyd919

I'm saying Shero wasn't worried about the year after a deadline he was in the now & some of the trades ignored common sense (Iggy is stuck in my mind there).

JR has moved pieces looking at the years to follow & I'd even to as far to say JR has traded away a lot of what Shero put in - HBK & Horny along with the WBS guys are the reason we won the cup. I'd wager that Shero would never have played the young guns - he would have traded for the big name then fill the rest with scraps playing out of position. So there's not a lot of credit I would give Shero for our cup last season & I'm glad he's gone.

He's traded Samuelsson (a prospect), a 2nd round pick, a 4th round pick, Depres, a 7th, Kapenen, Harrington, 2 1st round picks, a conditional 3rd, another 3rd, etc. etc.

He is doing the exact same thing Shero did, trading away just as many futures. I really don't see how this is difficult to grasp. The only reason anything was in the cupboards, is because of Shero. Again, 1/3 of the roster was drafted/acquired by Shero. Yes GMJR made solid moves and they all worked out. If Kessel hadnt worked out, or Hags didnt.. everyone would be roasting him. Luck plays a HUGE part in hockey. Shero and GMJR both did the same thing, made trades because they have balls. They both won cups, why? Because they believed their moves would work. And they did.
- j.boyd919

Its not the same style between Rutherford/Shero.

Rutherford has made a lot more "hockey" trades and not pure rentals. Rutherford really didn't do one rental trade last year. Schultz is a maybe, but it was more of a bargain basement trade and not a high profile rental. Cheaper defensive depth trade. Sort of like the Jokinen acquisition. Shero did a few of those two.

Trading for Kessel isn't like the Shero trades. Yes we gave up some prospects (but not a ton), but we grabbed a guy on a reasonable contract close enough to his prime to contribute for years. We basically paid rental price for that but got control for a lot of years (6.8 is a pretty reasonable number for a guy who can run a line).

Agree on luck being a big deal (one could call it good analysis too).

Rutherford traded away a lot fewer picks/prospects. What he did take risks on was term of contract - Kessel/Hags both had that issue. I view Rutherford's deals as far more of a "hockey trade" type than a "rental" type.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rutherford does a rental this year. Adding a 2nd pair dman might be on his shopping list. That usually costs a 1st round pick. I think he's unlikely to add a forward unless we have a significant injury and adding offense becomes a concern.

With out depth theres some likelihood we do a hockey trade and move a depth forward/Pouliot to bring in a mid-pairing dman.

I'm saying Shero wasn't worried about the year after a deadline he was in the now & some of the trades ignored common sense (Iggy is stuck in my mind there).

JR has moved pieces looking at the years to follow & I'd even to as far to say JR has traded away a lot of what Shero put in - HBK & Horny along with the WBS guys are the reason we won the cup. I'd wager that Shero would never have played the young guns - he would have traded for the big name then fill the rest with scraps playing out of position. So there's not a lot of credit I would give Shero for our cup last season & I'm glad he's gone.
- Aussiepenguin

Along with the wbs guys... the guys Shero drafted but doesn't get credit. K bud. Hahaha

Its not the same style between Rutherford/Shero.

Rutherford has made a lot more "hockey" trades and not pure rentals. Rutherford really didn't do one rental trade last year. Schultz is a maybe, but it was more of a bargain basement trade and not a high profile rental. Cheaper defensive depth trade. Sort of like the Jokinen acquisition. Shero did a few of those two.

Trading for Kessel isn't like the Shero trades. Yes we gave up some prospects (but not a ton), but we grabbed a guy on a reasonable contract close enough to his prime to contribute for years. We basically paid rental price for that but got control for a lot of years (6.8 is a pretty reasonable number for a guy who can run a line).

Agree on luck being a big deal (one could call it good analysis too).

Rutherford traded away a lot fewer picks/prospects. What he did take risks on was term of contract - Kessel/Hags both had that issue. I view Rutherford's deals as far more of a "hockey trade" type than a "rental" type.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rutherford does a rental this year. Adding a 2nd pair dman might be on his shopping list. That usually costs a 1st round pick. I think he's unlikely to add a forward unless we have a significant injury and adding offense becomes a concern.

With out depth theres some likelihood we do a hockey trade and move a depth forward/Pouliot to bring in a mid-pairing dman.
- sditulli

I agree that the styles have been slightly different. But both GM's had balls to make moves. And both GM's made moves that won them cups, the difference between them and say.. Ken holland. My point is that they aren't too different. Yeah Shero went the rental route a few times. But he also went term with dupuis, kunitz, and a few others, I still stand by my opinion that Sheros players drafted had a hand in the Pens most recent cup and that him and gmjr are not that different. And nothing with change that opinion.

Along with the wbs guys... the guys Shero drafted but doesn't get credit. K bud. Hahaha
- j.boyd919

You're not reading what I write "Bud".

The WBS guys (3 of which played), wouldn't have got a look in - but hey keep on keeping on with 'it was Sheros Cup' - thanks Shero but most of the F core outside Sid & Geno were gone & JR brought in Culldog, Horny & Fehr with HBK. But hey, Shero should get credit!

You should just for kicks list the team from Sheros tenure which includes Sutter, then list JR's Cup winning team. WOW credit where it's due "bud".

Thanks Ray, we reeeeeaalllyyyy appreciate your input. (Feel better?)

I agree that the styles have been slightly different. But both GM's had balls to make moves. And both GM's made moves that won them cups, the difference between them and say.. Ken holland. My point is that they aren't too different. Yeah Shero went the rental route a few times. But he also went term with dupuis, kunitz, and a few others, I still stand by my opinion that Sheros players drafted had a hand in the Pens most recent cup and that him and gmjr are not that different. And nothing with change that opinion.
- j.boyd919

So now they aren't doing the exact same thing Bud??

You sound like something out of an officer & a gentleman - "same...........but different".

I agree that the styles have been slightly different. But both GM's had balls to make moves. And both GM's made moves that won them cups, the difference between them and say.. Ken holland. My point is that they aren't too different. Yeah Shero went the rental route a few times. But he also went term with dupuis, kunitz, and a few others, I still stand by my opinion that Sheros players drafted had a hand in the Pens most recent cup and that him and gmjr are not that different. And nothing with change that opinion.
- j.boyd919

I don't think anybody is arguing that a few of Shero's later drafts paid off nicely for the recent cup run. However I'm not very confident that we get that cup with him and Disco at the helm last year. Actually I'm positive that cup doesn't happen if Ray and Dan are still here.

They had ample opportunity after the 2009 cup and it resulted in 4 series wins.

I don't think anybody is arguing that a few of Shero's later drafts paid off nicely for the recent cup run. However I'm not very confident that we get that cup with him and Disco at the helm last year. Actually I'm positive that cup doesn't happen if Ray and Dan are still here.

They had ample opportunity after the 2009 cup and it resulted in 4 series wins.
- madmike71

Oh I definitely agree with you. I wasn't saying otherwise.

You're not reading what I write "Bud".

The WBS guys (3 of which played), wouldn't have got a look in - but hey keep on keeping on with 'it was Sheros Cup' - thanks Shero but most of the F core outside Sid & Geno were gone & JR brought in Culldog, Horny & Fehr with HBK. But hey, Shero should get credit!

You should just for kicks list the team from Sheros tenure which includes Sutter, then list JR's Cup winning team. WOW credit where it's due "bud".

Thanks Ray, we reeeeeaalllyyyy appreciate your input. (Feel better?)
- Aussiepenguin

I didn't say it was "Sheros cup" dummy. I said he had a hand in it. Drafting kuhn, rust, maatta, trading for Dumo, signing Sheary. I'm not giving him ALL of the credit. But he definitely had a hand in it, if you don't agree, no sweat of my back. Sometimes ya can't fix stupid.

I didn't say it was "Sheros cup" dummy. I said he had a hand in it. Drafting kuhn, rust, maatta, trading for Dumo, signing Sheary. I'm not giving him ALL of the credit. But he definitely had a hand in it, if you don't agree, no sweat of my back. Sometimes ya can't fix stupid.
- j.boyd919

Nice reply.

Again you either haven't bothered reading/understanding my comments or you are an arse!

I've said numerous times if Shero was still GM those young guys wouldn't have had a shot of playing.

As I've said previously the reason we won the cup is due to the 'changes' made by JR from Sheros team - get that he 'changed the majority of the makeup of the team?

So from NOT playing youth & us changing the makeup of the 'Shero era', team what has Shero left us???

"Can't fix stupid", you're a classy fella!

You don't have to keep proving to me you're an arse - I already know!

Nice reply.

Again you either haven't bothered reading/understanding my comments or you are an arse!

I've said numerous times if Shero was still GM those young guys wouldn't have had a shot of playing.

As I've said previously the reason we won the cup is due to the 'changes' made by JR from Sheros team - get that he 'changed the majority of the makeup of the team?

So from NOT playing youth & us changing the makeup of the 'Shero era', team what has Shero left us???

"Can't fix stupid", you're a classy fella!

You don't have to keep proving to me you're an arse - I already know!
- Aussiepenguin

I think Shero would have played the youth this year. For a simple reason we already traded a lot of picks so rentals were not much of an option.

I think Shero would have played the youth this year. For a simple reason we already traded a lot of picks so rentals were not much of an option.
- sditulli

Ray would have filled out the roster with a few aging grit guys thus blocking spots for the youth. So I'm not so sure all of those kids get their shots. Maybe one or two of them......and they'd be stuck dragging Zac Sill and (insert plug here) up and down the ice.

Ruth came here and instantly identified the third and 4th lines were awful. The team was slow and nobody plays in front of the net. I don't see any of that changing under the previous regime.

I think Shero would have played the youth this year. For a simple reason we already traded a lot of picks so rentals were not much of an option.
- sditulli

I think there would be a couple of guys currently in Europe wearing Pens colours if Ray was still here.

If & big if, the young guys got a run their errors wouldn't have been acceptable & they would have been traded or sent back down. No way they are part of any cup campaign in my opinion. Despres was a good example.

" can't fix stupid" are you the new holeinone now, J.boyd ?

I didn't say it was "Sheros cup" dummy. I said he had a hand in it. Drafting kuhn, rust, maatta, trading for Dumo, signing Sheary. I'm not giving him ALL of the credit. But he definitely had a hand in it, if you don't agree, no sweat of my back. Sometimes ya can't fix stupid.
- j.boyd919

Technically Botterill signed Sheary to an AHL contract and then Rutherford signed him to an NHL contract the following season based on performance. I don't think Rutherford forsaw the future Sheary has created for himself.

I don't think anybody is arguing that a few of Shero's later drafts paid off nicely for the recent cup run. However I'm not very confident that we get that cup with him and Disco at the helm last year. Actually I'm positive that cup doesn't happen if Ray and Dan are still here.

They had ample opportunity after the 2009 cup and it resulted in 4 series wins.
- madmike71

I think the point is when Shero was fired he left the cupboards full for GMJR. People say Shero didn't care about the future yet he had a decent stock pile of prospects.

Ray would have filled out the roster with a few aging grit guys thus blocking spots for the youth. So I'm not so sure all of those kids get their shots. Maybe one or two of them......and they'd be stuck dragging Zac Sill and (insert plug here) up and down the ice.

Ruth came here and instantly identified the third and 4th lines were awful. The team was slow and nobody plays in front of the net. I don't see any of that changing under the previous regime.
- madmike71

Aging vets like Spaling, Winnik, Klinkhamner and Lapierre ? That's what GMJR did his first season then he changed with the times

Aging vets like Spaling, Winnik, Klinkhamner and Lapierre ? That's what GMJR did his first season then he changed with the times
- willi

Thought most of us agreed upon those moves being more influenced by the 20some acting GM people and Ownership that season than JR? "Gotta win more now since we're possibly selling the team, blah blah blah... lets have a screaming match at the center of the draft floor (or whatever it was) blah blah..."

Aging vets like Spaling, Winnik, Klinkhamner and Lapierre ? That's what GMJR did his first season then he changed with the times
- willi

Exactly... but you know, GMJR and Shero went about things SO differently.

" can't fix stupid" are you the new holeinone now, J.boyd ?
- martox

Nah I won't ever throw politics around.

I think the point is when Shero was fired he left the cupboards full for GMJR. People say Shero didn't care about the future yet he had a decent stock pile of prospects.
- willi

^^^^

The Shero administration was good with hitting on later picks. Full props on that. But it's not up for debate how terrible they were with high picks. They hit on Staal and Maatta. The rest were bungled picks or traded away. I don't think Ray Shero had the proper amount of respect for how valuable high draft picks ae and used them exclusively as trade chips whether it be straight up trading them or picking PMDs to trade away in the future. The only time he made a draft pick after Staal with the intention of him being a big time contributer to the Pens' future was Beau Bennett and he busted.

So it's really a tale of two drafters when it comes to Ray Shero.

Aging vets like Spaling, Winnik, Klinkhamner and Lapierre ? That's what GMJR did his first season then he changed with the times
- willi

You're not going to successfully turn over more than half a team in one season. Did you notice how none of those guys made it to the cup team?

Ruth did Houdini level work in a season and a half. One of the most remarkable sports turn-around jobs I can think of. To change that much personnel and win a championship in two seasons is far more remarkable than anything Shero did.