It's not nearly as bad as it used to be. The WB5 would all still be in the AHL if we were talking about old management. I'd probably put Guentzel in for Wilson and Kuhnhackl/Sundqvist in for Fehr, but that state of affairs is not nearly as egregious as it used to be when we were dressing Pyatt, Glass, Adams, et al on a nightly basis.
- Victoro311

I don't completely disagree with you but they also didn't have the luxury of having guys like Rust, Kuhnkackl, Geuntzel, Wilson and Sheary ready and available when they were using guys like Pyatt, Adams and Glass in their bottom 6. The young talent that helped them last year and is helping again this year where mostly all longer term projects that weren't ready or available a few years ago. Doesn't necessarily make it better but they didn't really have the options then like they have now so we really don't know how the former regime would have handled having this kind of young talent to work with.

I don't completely disagree with you but they also didn't have the luxury of having guys like Rust, Kuhnkackl, Geuntzel, Wilson and Sheary ready and available when they were using guys like Pyatt, Adams and Glass in their bottom 6. The young talent that helped them last year and is helping again this year where mostly all longer term projects that weren't ready or available a few years ago. Doesn't necessarily make it better but they didn't really have the options then like they have now so we really don't know how the former regime would have handled having this kind of young talent to work with.
- jaydogg1974

Isn't that still the fault of the GM? Not being able to fill out your roster with adequate players? Like Gunner likes to say... He was given the easy part with two generational centers and a legit #1 Dman.

And the coach... I mean, everybody knew his time was up in Pittsburgh 2 years before he was actually fired. Just ask Burkle.

I agree with Victoro, I don't think we see many (or any) of the WB kids given a chance under the old regime.

Isn't that still the fault of the GM? Not being able to fill out your roster with adequate players? Like Gunner likes to say... He was given the easy part with two generational centers and a legit #1 Dman.

And the coach... I mean, everybody knew his time was up in Pittsburgh 2 years before he was actually fired. Just ask Burkle.

I agree with Victoro, I don't think we see many (or any) of the WB kids given a chance under the old regime.
- madmike71

His loyalty to Bylsma was his number 1 fault for sure. Without that, we may have had another cup prior to this one.

His loyalty to Bylsma was his number 1 fault for sure. Without that, we may have had another cup prior to this one.
- cygnus41

The team with Iginla was good enough to win a cup. Disco got trounced strategically in two of those 3 series. Certainly shouldn't have lost in a sweep in the ECF. That should have been it for Dan. Personally, I thought after the Flyers debacle he should have been fired.

Isn't that still the fault of the GM? Not being able to fill out your roster with adequate players? Like Gunner likes to say... He was given the easy part with two generational centers and a legit #1 Dman.

And the coach... I mean, everybody knew his time was up in Pittsburgh 2 years before he was actually fired. Just ask Burkle.

I agree with Victoro, I don't think we see many (or any) of the WB kids given a chance under the old regime.
- madmike71

On top of that, I think Shero probably would have traded any young gun for a vet at the deadline & no way he goes after Shultz - just not a big enough name for Ray. He liked the sensationalism of winning the big name trade - I think the Hawks have fallen into that trap the last 2 years (especially last year). Coming out on top at the trade deadline works wonders for winning the Cup!

On top of that, I think Shero probably would have traded any young gun for a vet at the deadline & no way he goes after Shultz - just not a big enough name for Ray. He liked the sensationalism of winning the big name trade - I think the Hawks have fallen into that trap the last 2 years (especially last year). Coming out on top at the trade deadline works wonders for winning the Cup!
- Aussiepenguin

I disagree. He tried to get big names in trades, because the big names are good hockey players, and Shero was trying to give his team the best chance to win. Usually teams with the best hockey players win. (IE:Team Canada) And that's what Shero was attempting to do, with the amount of random events and chaos in hockey, by icing the best lineup you can put together gives you the highest probability of winning, and that's what most GMs are trying to do.

The team with Iginla was good enough to win a cup. Disco got trounced strategically in two of those 3 series. Certainly shouldn't have lost in a sweep in the ECF. That should have been it for Dan. Personally, I thought after the Flyers debacle he should have been fired.
- madmike71

Totally agree.

Isn't that still the fault of the GM? Not being able to fill out your roster with adequate players? Like Gunner likes to say... He was given the easy part with two generational centers and a legit #1 Dman.

And the coach... I mean, everybody knew his time was up in Pittsburgh 2 years before he was actually fired. Just ask Burkle.

I agree with Victoro, I don't think we see many (or any) of the WB kids given a chance under the old regime.
- madmike71

Yes and No.

recent drafting can not be replicated. We've basically hit on every pick that is 3rd round or better for a fairly long stretch. where guys like blueger/jarry are failures. He should have had some guys ready, but we traded away a ton of picks and the current hit rate on draft picks isn't sustainable.

I disagree. He tried to get big names in trades, because the big names are good hockey players, and Shero was trying to give his team the best chance to win. Usually teams with the best hockey players win. (IE:Team Canada) And that's what Shero was attempting to do, with the amount of random events and chaos in hockey, by icing the best lineup you can put together gives you the highest probability of winning, and that's what most GMs are trying to do.
- j.boyd919

He still would have traded away the young guns - win or lose. So far his record is 1 cup with a lot of years trying. JR comes in makes an unassuming trade for 1 Dman (when the team was starting its run, I bet Shero would have thrown the kitchen sink at a few others & not won), leaves 'his' coach (ok 2nd pick with no real option at that time so that was very lucky), who coached the young guys in WBS & trusted them, & wins with a defence everyone slammed, & a top 6 with no names - Shero would never have done that.

He still would have traded away the young guns - win or lose. So far his record is 1 cup with a lot of years trying. JR comes in makes an unassuming trade for 1 Dman (when the team was starting its run, I bet Shero would have thrown the kitchen sink at a few others & not won), leaves 'his' coach (ok 2nd pick with no real option at that time so that was very lucky), who coached the young guys in WBS & trusted them, & wins with a defence everyone slammed, & a top 6 with no names - Shero would never have done that.
- Aussiepenguin

I don't think you quite understand how difficult it is to win a cup.

GMJR made trades for Kessel, Hornqvist, Hagelin, Daley, Schultz, Cole, Lovejoy, Bonino

Ray Shero made trades for Hossa, Iginla, Kunitz, Dupuis, D. Murray, Dumolin, Sutter, Neal, Morrow, etc.

Both GMs did the same thing. Made trades to improve their team to the best of their abilities. Oh, he also left "his" coach for Bylsma, the coach of WBS...

I don't think you quite understand how difficult it is to win a cup.

GMJR made trades for Kessel, Hornqvist, Hagelin, Daley, Schultz, Cole, Lovejoy, Bonino

Ray Shero made trades for Hossa, Iginla, Kunitz, Dupuis, D. Murray, Dumolin, Sutter, Neal, Morrow, etc.

Both GMs did the same thing. Made trades to improve their team to the best of their abilities. Oh, he also left "his" coach for Bylsma, the coach of WBS...
- j.boyd919

I'm not nitpicking but you previously said Shero drafted Dumo now he traded for him? He made a trade for a draft pick he didn't trade for him.

Different trades & different times - Shero was the deadline (mostly), high profile big news trades. JR picked (apart from Kessel), small smart potentially high risk/reward trades that weren't big news trades - Shags, Lovejob & Cole were seen as huge risks. When did Shero make trades like that - Niskinen & Neal?

I'm not nitpicking but you previously said Shero drafted Dumo now he traded for him? He made a trade for a draft pick he didn't trade for him.

Different trades & different times - Shero was the deadline (mostly), high profile big news trades. JR picked (apart from Kessel), small smart potentially high risk/reward trades that weren't big news trades - Shags, Lovejob & Cole were seen as huge risks. When did Shero make trades like that - Niskinen & Neal?
- Aussiepenguin

No, I said drafted/acquired. He did not draft Dumo, he was drafted by Carolina.

Not really, Kunitz was done in Feb, traded for Gary Roberts in Feb, replaced Therien in Feb, Kovalev trade, Jussi Jokinen... and those trades were not seen as huge risks. they traded Depres and Bortuzzo and Perron lol (yes Depres and Perron have talent) but those moves are very lateral moves.

Looks like Sullivan kept his word about finding Pouliot some playing time.

No, I said drafted/acquired. He did not draft Dumo, he was drafted by Carolina.

Not really, Kunitz was done in Feb, traded for Gary Roberts in Feb, replaced Therien in Feb, Kovalev trade, Jussi Jokinen... and those trades were not seen as huge risks. they traded Depres and Bortuzzo and Perron lol (yes Depres and Perron have talent) but those moves are very lateral moves.
- j.boyd919

My point JR hasn't compromised the futures, rebuilt the team & won a cup. Shero tinkered & made moves which did strip the cupboards to a certain extent - & yes I do understand how hard it is to win. As much as I disliked the Despres trade it made changes that can't be questioned (even though Shags 4m cap hit is not easy to swallow but...........his cup ring is like a glass of water to help).

My point JR hasn't compromised the futures, rebuilt the team & won a cup. Shero tinkered & made moves which did strip the cupboards to a certain extent - & yes I do understand how hard it is to win. As much as I disliked the Despres trade it made changes that can't be questioned (even though Shags 4m cap hit is not easy to swallow but...........his cup ring is like a glass of water to help).
- Aussiepenguin

He's traded Samuelsson (a prospect), a 2nd round pick, a 4th round pick, Depres, a 7th, Kapenen, Harrington, 2 1st round picks, a conditional 3rd, another 3rd, etc. etc.

He is doing the exact same thing Shero did, trading away just as many futures. I really don't see how this is difficult to grasp. The only reason anything was in the cupboards, is because of Shero. Again, 1/3 of the roster was drafted/acquired by Shero. Yes GMJR made solid moves and they all worked out. If Kessel hadnt worked out, or Hags didnt.. everyone would be roasting him. Luck plays a HUGE part in hockey. Shero and GMJR both did the same thing, made trades because they have balls. They both won cups, why? Because they believed their moves would work. And they did.

He's traded Samuelsson (a prospect), a 2nd round pick, a 4th round pick, Depres, a 7th, Kapenen, Harrington, 2 1st round picks, a conditional 3rd, another 3rd, etc. etc.

He is doing the exact same thing Shero did, trading away just as many futures. I really don't see how this is difficult to grasp. The only reason anything was in the cupboards, is because of Shero. Again, 1/3 of the roster was drafted/acquired by Shero. Yes GMJR made solid moves and they all worked out. If Kessel hadnt worked out, or Hags didnt.. everyone would be roasting him. Luck plays a HUGE part in hockey. Shero and GMJR both did the same thing, made trades because they have balls. They both won cups, why? Because they believed their moves would work. And they did.
- j.boyd919

You're pretty loose with what you say sometimes! Drafting Dumo when it suits your opinion then trading for him a page later. Now saying Samuelson as if he's Jake Muzzin??

How many rentals had JR traded for? How many did Shero do?

I will say & I may be wrong, JR has traded a lot more astutely & better to date for the Pens.

You're pretty loose with what you say sometimes! Drafting Dumo when it suits your opinion then trading for him a page later. Now saying Samuelson as if he's Jake Muzzin??

How many rentals had JR traded for? How many did Shero do?

I will say & I may be wrong, JR has traded a lot more astutely & better to date for the Pens.
- Aussiepenguin

Look back at my comment a page ago, it's actually not loose at all. It says "drafting/acquired." And if this was 2010, you would say the same thing after back to back trips to the cup with one ring. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Look back at my comment a page ago, it's actually not loose at all. It says "drafting/acquired." And if this was 2010, you would say the same thing after back to back trips to the cup with one ring. Hindsight is always 20/20.
- j.boyd919

Hindsight yes, comparing the history of 2 GM's actions is called comparison. We are comparing what 2 people did not criticising 1 mans actions & saying if he only did this or did that.

So far, GMJR is having a better run with what he is doing rather than what Shero did. Remember also Shero had the players given to him in their prime, he just didn't build around them as JR has done. I'd call luck big time with some of the moves for sure, but he still backed his decisions & they paid dividends last season, & who knows from here on.

You defend Shero which is fine, but he had his faults big time in his time with the Pens. JR so far has won a cup so it's hard to fault what he's done. I compare both & like what JR has done A LOT more than what Shero did.

Isn't that still the fault of the GM? Not being able to fill out your roster with adequate players? Like Gunner likes to say... He was given the easy part with two generational centers and a legit #1 Dman.

And the coach... I mean, everybody knew his time was up in Pittsburgh 2 years before he was actually fired. Just ask Burkle.

I agree with Victoro, I don't think we see many (or any) of the WB kids given a chance under the old regime.
- madmike71

Adams could fix our pk problems. He's to busy fixing major firms financial. problems though.

Hindsight yes, comparing the history of 2 GM's actions is called comparison. We are comparing what 2 people did not criticising 1 mans actions & saying if he only did this or did that.

So far, GMJR is having a better run with what he is doing rather than what Shero did. Remember also Shero had the players given to him in their prime, he just didn't build around them as JR has done. I'd call luck big time with some of the moves for sure, but he still backed his decisions & they paid dividends last season, & who knows from here on.

You defend Shero which is fine, but he had his faults big time in his time with the Pens. JR so far has won a cup so it's hard to fault what he's done. I compare both & like what JR has done A LOT more than what Shero did.
- Aussiepenguin

In GMJR's first 2 years, he has made many moves very similar to the moves Sheri made from 2008-2011, when Shero believed it was their best shot at winning the cup. That is my point. Shero was given Fleury, Geno, and Sid, Shero drafted Staal and Letang. Shero did just as much building for the 09 cup team as JR did last year. GMJR was given Fleury, Geno, Sid, Letang. Yes Shero had his faults with the Pens, but he also went to back to back cups and won one. JR had many faults with Carolina. Every GM has faults. I mean, I liked back to back cup appearances and an eastern conference finals. 3 deep trips in the playoffs is pretty solid.

I defend Shero because people don't understand that this is still part of Shero's team and that's exactly why GMJR acknowledged it when he won GM of the year. I'm really confused as to how you don't see that.

Adams could fix our pk problems. He's to busy fixing major firms financial. problems though.
- Grinder47

No he couldn't.

I don't hate the guy but he played probably 3 years too long. Shero was out of his mind to give him that last contract. I give him great credit for being a very serviceable NHL player for a long time, but he was threadbare when he retired.

No he couldn't.

I don't hate the guy but he played probably 3 years too long. Shero was out of his mind to give him that last contract. I give him great credit for being a very serviceable NHL player for a long time, but he was threadbare when he retired.
- madmike71

Just block shots. half the time it goes off your shin pads and out of the zone. Gotta have balls to be on the pk. I would put Crosby as more likely to block a shea weber shot than our entire pk forward group. If poop aibt going right just block the damb shot.

Just block shots. half the time it goes off your shin pads and out of the zone. Gotta have balls to be on the pk. I would put Crosby as more likely to block a shea weber shot than our entire pk forward group. If poop aibt going right just block the damb shot.
- Grinder47

Kuhnhackl is basically his replacement. It's December and I'm not too worried about shot blocking or the PK just yet. They proved last spring they're capable of blocking a ton of shots when it matters.

Leading the division and 2 pts out of leading the East makes it hard to be upset about anything....(even though their overall performance has been uneven).

Not taking so many dumb penalties will solve a lot of problems too.

In GMJR's first 2 years, he has made many moves very similar to the moves Sheri made from 2008-2011, when Shero believed it was their best shot at winning the cup. That is my point. Shero was given Fleury, Geno, and Sid, Shero drafted Staal and Letang. Shero did just as much building for the 09 cup team as JR did last year. GMJR was given Fleury, Geno, Sid, Letang. Yes Shero had his faults with the Pens, but he also went to back to back cups and won one. JR had many faults with Carolina. Every GM has faults. I mean, I liked back to back cup appearances and an eastern conference finals. 3 deep trips in the playoffs is pretty solid.

I defend Shero because people don't understand that this is still part of Shero's team and that's exactly why GMJR acknowledged it when he won GM of the year. I'm really confused as to how you don't see that.
- j.boyd919

Crosby and Letang came from the same draft.

Adams could fix our pk problems. He's to busy fixing major firms financial. problems though.
- Grinder47

Just another stupid statement. Yeah a 41 year old who was pure garbage when he was 27. Sign me up.