That also falls along the lines of a 12-year-old girl.
- jmatchett383

Ah, fair enough... I am quite proud to not be familiar with 12 year old girl texting habits

Where does James Tanner sit?
- jmatchett383

I actually don't mind Tanner, that much. Sometimes he goes very overboard, and is not open to others' opinions, but I actually enjoy his blogs probably the most out of anyone on HB.

I actually don't mind Tanner, that much. Sometimes he goes very overboard, and is not open to others' opinions, but I actually enjoy his blogs probably the most out of anyone on HB.
- j.boyd919

Do you agree with his stance that the one and only way to judge a player's effectiveness is to measure his shot attempt differential?

For (frank)'s sake, at least RW offers a little bit of insight into the game. Tanner just goes, "Here are shot attempt differentials, therefore this players is good/bad."

Do you agree with his stance that the one and only way to judge a player's effectiveness is to measure his shot attempt differential?

For (frank)'s sake, at least RW offers a little bit of insight into the game. Tanner just goes, "Here are shot attempt differentials, therefore this players is good/bad."
- jmatchett383

hahaha no. I don't. I think that shot attempts are one of the many tools used to evaluate a player's effectiveness. It is kinda weird how Tanner almost exclusively uses corsi, whereas RW uses just about every "advanced statistic" that floats around twitter. I follow a lot of the same people RW does on twitter. I like seeing all the different ways people come up with analyzing hockey, it's interesting to me.

hahaha no. I don't. I think that shot attempts are one of the many tools used to evaluate a player's effectiveness. It is kinda weird how Tanner almost exclusively uses corsi, whereas RW uses just about every "advanced statistic" that floats around twitter. I follow a lot of the same people RW does on twitter. I like seeing all the different ways people come up with analyzing hockey, it's interesting to me.
- j.boyd919

I don't think that shot attempt differentials, or anyone sort of analytical data, should be discredited. That said, basing a player's effectiveness solely on raw data seems like a terrible way to evaluate a player. If a dude is a -4 in shot attempts every game, but is one the ice for more goals for than against, I'll take that player.

Grinder must really love the app in order to make his username about it
- rangerdanger94

Yep love dudes. I'm so gay.

I don't think that shot attempt differentials, or anyone sort of analytical data, should be discredited. That said, basing a player's effectiveness solely on raw data seems like a terrible way to evaluate a player. If a dude is a -4 in shot attempts every game, but is one the ice for more goals for than against, I'll take that player.
- jmatchett383

Yet there was still more scoring and puck creativity when teams dressed a line of goons and noone would ever loook at any new stat as anything more than a joke. .

Yep love dudes. I'm so gay.
- Grinder47

Well, hellooooooo

Yet there was still more scoring and puck creativity when teams dressed a line of goons and noone would ever loook at any new stat as anything more than a joke. .
- Grinder47

There was more scoring because goalies were smaller, goalie pads were smaller, they were less athletic, and the butterfly style hadn't been invented. But yeah, okay, let's go with the goons theory.

There was more scoring because goalies were smaller, goalie pads were smaller, they were less athletic, and the butterfly style hadn't been invented. But yeah, okay, let's go with the goons theory.
- j.boyd919

That and the talent discrepancy. There are way fewer guys out there who can't skate and way more balance from line to line than there ever was.

That and the talent discrepancy. There are way fewer guys out there who can't skate and way more balance from line to line than there ever was.
- BINGO!

That's too. The gap between talent is so much smaller now.

I don't think that shot attempt differentials, or anyone sort of analytical data, should be discredited. That said, basing a player's effectiveness solely on raw data seems like a terrible way to evaluate a player. If a dude is a -4 in shot attempts every game, but is one the ice for more goals for than against, I'll take that player.
- jmatchett383

I think that's kind of where you can fall into a rabbit hole, looking at shot attempts, than scoring chances, than high danger area scoring chances, primary points, secondary points, zone entries, zone exits, etc. etc... there are so many different things to look at, and THAT is what I find interesting. I don't think anyone who values/studies analytics doesn't watch games. I just think they use analytics to help evaluate what they're watching because the eye/memory can miss/forget so much over the course of even 2 minutes, let alone 82 games.

Where does James Tanner sit?
- jmatchett383

Worst bloggers

1. Garth - "Have you heard about Eichel?"
2. Tessier - my left nut can make better predictions than this guy
3. JJ - Toews is the greatest player in [insert here]
4. Tanner - discussions go nowhere / "Have you heard about OEL?"
5. Paul Berthelot - Cuz no one reads blue jacket blogs

Best
1. Sheng Peng - dat name tho

I think that's kind of where you can fall into a rabbit hole, looking at shot attempts, than scoring chances, than high danger area scoring chances, primary points, secondary points, zone entries, zone exits, etc. etc... there are so many different things to look at, and THAT is what I find interesting. I don't think anyone who values/studies analytics doesn't watch games. I just think they use analytics to help evaluate what they're watching because the eye/memory can miss/forget so much over the course of even 2 minutes, let alone 82 games.
- j.boyd919

What I've found is that the analytics generally serve to validate what I've seen by watching the game. I don't want to be watching a game and miss a great pass because I'm jotting down notes on zone entries. I like hockey to watch it, not to evaluate it on a spread sheet.

That said, while I do think they hold value, no game was ever won on the ice because of analytics, they are won by players scoring/defending goals. In a perfect, ideal world, better "possession" (I hate that term) stats would lead to more wins. However, this is not and ideal world and it is far from perfect, so that's not always the case.

Edit: People didn't need/use analytics in the 80s and 90s to know that Lemieux and Gretzky were great players. A basic ability to interpret good to bad hockey made it evident how great they were.

Worst bloggers


1. EK
2. Ek
3. ek
4. eK
5. more to come... oh wait, its just Ek agian


Best
1. Sheng Peng - dat name tho
- DeflatedPucks

Fixed

Worst bloggers

1. Garth - "Have you heard about Eichel?"
2. Tessier - my left nut can make better predictions than this guy
3. JJ - Toews is the greatest player in
- DeflatedPucks[insert here]
4. Tanner - discussions go nowhere / "Have you heard about OEL?"
5. Paul Berthelot - Cuz no one reads blue jacket blogs

Best
1. Sheng Peng - dat name tho

My pet peeve with Garth, aside from his Eichel (and formerly Grigorenko) boner and absolute abandonment of spell checking, is his horrible puns in his titles. Day after day, just face-palm-worthy puns.

Fixed
- Guile

Congrats. You typed "Ek" 3 times in a row and broke the site.

What I've found is that the analytics generally serve to validate what I've seen by watching the game. I don't want to be watching a game and miss a great pass because I'm jotting down notes on zone entries. I like hockey to watch it, not to evaluate it on a spread sheet.
- jmatchett383

The people jotting stuff down are the guys that want jobs in the world of hockey, IMO.

I definitely do not jot anything down during games, I may take a look at corsica.hockey during the intermissions (if I'm not cooking, or walking the dog or whatever) but yeah, I completely agree, using them to validate what you see on the ice. But I also believe that as you're watching games, and checking data, you will begin to notice trends... and while hockey is a random sport with chaos and variable, using these trends, in my opinion, to construct a roster and make decisions just gives you a better chance of being on the winning side of these random events. All it is to me, is using them to give your team the best CHANCE at winning.

That said, while I do think they hold value, no game was ever won on the ice because of analytics, they are won by players scoring/defending goals. In a perfect, ideal world, better "possession" (I hate that term) stats would lead to more wins. However, this is not and ideal world and it is far from perfect, so that's not always the case.

Edit: People didn't need/use analytics in the 80s and 90s to know that Lemieux and Gretzky were great players. A basic ability to interpret good to bad hockey made it evident how great they were.

While true, the talent gap was much wider, and goalies much worse, computer data wasn't as readily available either. It's just simply an evolutionary effect, athletes get better, computers/internet/footage are more accessible, and people try to use every edge to give them a chance to win.

Congrats. You typed "Ek" 3 times in a row and broke the site.
- jmatchett383

hahaha i thought the same thing.

Congrats. You typed "Ek" 3 times in a row and broke the site.
- jmatchett383

Ek is not Beetlejuice

But I also believe that as you're watching games, and checking data, you will begin to notice trends... and while hockey is a random sport with chaos and variable, using these trends, in my opinion, to construct a roster and make decisions just gives you a better chance of being on the winning side of these random events. All it is to me, is using them to give your team the best CHANCE at winning.
- j.boyd919

But this is part of my problem, as a fan. I'm not gonna lie, I don't dig the analytics too much, so I don't frequent those sites. I have people relay that info to me from time to time.

However, a friend of mine said that some of hockey was actually a bit ruined for him because now he's noticing trends that he saw and is now using that when watching instead of just sitting back and watching the play unfold. I don't know if that's normal, and it's not going to deter people, but I kinda get what he's saying. For instance, instead of being wowed by Giroux making a nice deke to gain the line, he's more focused on whether or not the zone is being gained with the puck to validate the trend he read on and it takes away from some of the appreciation for the flow of the game. Again, I have nothing against people who use the analytics, but for me, I enjoy simply watching the game without any preconceived notions (except that Andrew MacDonald sucks).

But like you said, if you want a job with a team, it makes more sense to track it.

While true, the talent gap was much wider, and goalies much worse, computer data wasn't as readily available either. It's just simply an evolutionary effect, athletes get better, computers/internet/footage are more accessible, and people try to use every edge to give them a chance to win.
- j.boyd919

This is a totally different subject, but it drives me insane when RW says the league is now "catering to 3rd liners" with the way it's called. Up until about 10 years ago, guys who were 3rd/4th liners would be in the AHL (or worse) now, and guys who are 3rd/4th liners now would be second and third line players 10 years ago. The talent gap, except for the extremes, is insanely thin. So while I don't think the league is "catering" to a select few individuals (which it shouldn't, it shouldn't "cater" to anyone), I also don't think there's much of a difference between 1st and 3rd liners anymore, either.

Sorry for the length.

Ek is not Beetlejuice
- Guile

No, Beetlejuice always followed through with his words.

i can tell if the penguins are gonna have a good or bad game with in the first 5 minutes of turning the game on. i knew last night was gonna suck so i turned it off after 5 minutes.

i realize this line up won a cup last year.......some might even say this line up is een better ith the addition of guetenzal(i butchered that one). but i think we some sort of a shake up. nothing major like trading malkin. but at least get rid of perhaps ferh and fluery. get a couple fresh faces in the line up.

couldnt hurt.

But this is part of my problem, as a fan. I'm not gonna lie, I don't dig the analytics too much, so I don't frequent those sites. I have people relay that info to me from time to time.

However, a friend of mine said that some of hockey was actually a bit ruined for him because now he's noticing trends that he saw and is now using that when watching instead of just sitting back and watching the play unfold. I don't know if that's normal, and it's not going to deter people, but I kinda get what he's saying. For instance, instead of being wowed by Giroux making a nice deke to gain the line, he's more focused on whether or not the zone is being gained with the puck to validate the trend he read on and it takes away from some of the appreciation for the flow of the game. Again, I have nothing against people who use the analytics, but for me, I enjoy simply watching the game without any preconceived notions (except that Andrew MacDonald sucks).

But like you said, if you want a job with a team, it makes more sense to track it.




This is a totally different subject, but it drives me insane when RW says the league is now "catering to 3rd liners" with the way it's called. Up until about 10 years ago, guys who were 3rd/4th liners would be in the AHL (or worse) now, and guys who are 3rd/4th liners now would be second and third line players 10 years ago. The talent gap, except for the extremes, is insanely thin. So while I don't think the league is "catering" to a select few individuals (which it shouldn't, it shouldn't "cater" to anyone), I also don't think there's much of a difference between 1st and 3rd liners anymore, either.

Sorry for the length.
- jmatchett383

I've found it's enhanced the way I watch the game. I now pick up on a lot of things and have gained a much deeper appreciation for the small moves made by defensemen than I had before.

But this is part of my problem, as a fan. I'm not gonna lie, I don't dig the analytics too much, so I don't frequent those sites. I have people relay that info to me from time to time.

However, a friend of mine said that some of hockey was actually a bit ruined for him because now he's noticing trends that he saw and is now using that when watching instead of just sitting back and watching the play unfold. I don't know if that's normal, and it's not going to deter people, but I kinda get what he's saying. For instance, instead of being wowed by Giroux making a nice deke to gain the line, he's more focused on whether or not the zone is being gained with the puck to validate the trend he read on and it takes away from some of the appreciation for the flow of the game. Again, I have nothing against people who use the analytics, but for me, I enjoy simply watching the game without any preconceived notions (except that Andrew MacDonald sucks).

But like you said, if you want a job with a team, it makes more sense to track it.
- jmatchett383

Yeah, I don't really get sucked down like that. I can still enjoy hockey just the same. Working for the Lightning for 5 years, I watched live hockey all the time from the control room and working there was really what got me into advanced statistics, but I can definitely remove myself from that while watching, so I can enjoy the big hits, slick dekes, nice sauce, and what not. I still watch with preconceived notions (IE: Dumo sucking ass this year, then as I hit enter, he throws a nice pass to Malkin to tie the game) but I am still pleasantly surprised when something bucks that notion. (IE: Kuhn, or Cole, or whatever it may be that I'm not exactly thrill about)

This is a totally different subject, but it drives me insane when RW says the league is now "catering to 3rd liners" with the way it's called. Up until about 10 years ago, guys who were 3rd/4th liners would be in the AHL (or worse) now, and guys who are 3rd/4th liners now would be second and third line players 10 years ago. The talent gap, except for the extremes, is insanely thin. So while I don't think the league is "catering" to a select few individuals (which it shouldn't, it shouldn't "cater" to anyone), I also don't think there's much of a difference between 1st and 3rd liners anymore, either.

Sorry for the length.

Haha I don't mind lengthy discussion when they make sense. I'm not sure what the catering to 3rd liners means, I think it's just officiating? Right? I do think sometimes the refs are REALLY bad with certain penalties, interference at the blue line blows my mind the most. But its whatever.