This might be the dumbest thing ever written in a Tanner thread.

Yes, that includes stuff actually written by Tanner.
- Mashadar

How so? In the event of a hit 2 players both engage in physical contact. In what way does this event wear one player down more than the other?

I've only ever argued the ridiculous definitive blanket statement that "hitting is useless"

Never even thought that one would have to actually delve into the myriad of reasons why that may be an utterly false conclusion . Fairly self explanatory

But this too. The mental aspect.
Does Lucic bearing down on you after smearing you 10 minutes earlier change your mindset and potentially you make a soft play on the puck ? This is just human nature.

Is there a study or stat for this ?
- HB77

I think for sure hitting is a part of hockey - and a fun one - and it is effective. As is winning a faceoff.

My point - and I realize you are not arguing with me here - is that NHL broadcasts and commentators put too much emphasis on the importance of hitting (and faceoffs).

In a lot of ways, you can relate the anti-skill arguments of a large segment of the hockey population with our culture's overall disdain for intellectuals.

I'm smarter than you.

™James Tanner
- golfingsince

While probably true, you said it. I just imply it!!!!! Honestly, the best part of this job is how frequently I am called stupid, dumb, an idiot, a moron, etc. etc. and yet, any implication that you might not be an idiot is SOooooooooooooo arrogant!

Number of times I've been called an idiot in real life, from the age of zero to 34: 0

Yet it occurs dozens of time per week online.

While probably true, you said it. I just imply it!!!!! Honestly, the best part of this job is how frequently I am called stupid, dumb, an idiot, a moron, etc. etc. and yet, any implication that you might not be an idiot is SOooooooooooooo arrogant!

Number of times I've been called an idiot in real life, from the age of zero to 34: 0

Yet it occurs dozens of time per week online, and is usually justified.
- James_Tanner

-fixed

But then if I get to say kane isn't representative of the population, then neither is lucic

So overall , those extremes aren't fair to use
- HB77

Technically, any anecdote based argument is just a logical fallacy. Not that you shouldn't give examples, but the idea that any example is indicative of anything other than one person's singular experience is considered preposterous.

How so? In the event of a hit 2 players both engage in physical contact. In what way does this event wear one player down more than the other?
- Feds91Stammer

For arguments sake, lets assume that both are equally impacted on being worn down (which I do not believe, but put that aside). Because who cares if Matt Martin exhausts himself hitting the opposition's #1 defensemen or best puck barrier over and over.

Still, advantage Martin.

If you need stats to understand that, then really, you are beyond help.

For arguments sake, lets assume that both are equally impacted on being worn down (which I do not believe, but put that aside). Because who cares if Matt Martin exhausts himself hitting the opposition's #1 defensemen or best puck barrier over and over.

Still, advantage Martin.

If you need stats to understand that, then really, you are beyond help.
- Mashadar

So in this theoretical scenario when I get my scoring line out against a now exhausted Martin later in the game who has the advantage?

Technically, any anecdote based argument is just a logical fallacy. Not that you shouldn't give examples, but the idea that any example is indicative of anything other than one person's singular experience is considered preposterous.
- James_Tanner

So when I say the sun rose in the east this morning...

While probably true, you said it. I just imply it!!!!! Honestly, the best part of this job is how frequently I am called stupid, dumb, an idiot, a moron, etc. etc. and yet, any implication that you might not be an idiot is SOooooooooooooo arrogant!

Number of times I've been called an idiot in real life, from the age of zero to 34: 0

Yet it occurs dozens of time per week online.
- James_Tanner

You would need to go out in public for something to happen in real life.

So a naturally occuring phenomenon (happens all the time, all over the world) is proof that a guy named Noah managed to collect two of every animal, and keep them alive in a tiny ship for 40 days and 40 nights?

I learn something new every day on Hockeybuzz.

Which could explain why I'm unemployed and living in my parents' basement.
- Atomic Wedgie

Oh my... so much anger in you.

What stupid blog, seriously.

To quote an earlier post.

"Have you ever played a physical contact sport?"
- Feds91Stammer

Hmmm, let's see.
Hockey, football, rugby, boxing, Kung Fu (not as a sport). That would be a yes.
And I don't quite believe I have to explain this, but there is one body taking action and one body being acted upon. In no way, shape or form is the force of said action equal to the two bodies involved. If you still don't believe me, go ask someone to punch you in the face and then compare his fist to your face.

So in this theoretical scenario when I get my scoring line out against a now exhausted Martin later in the game who has the advantage?
- Feds91Stammer

If that happens, it is bad coaching, not player related.

Hmmm, let's see.
Hockey, football, rugby, boxing, Kung Fu (not as a sport). That would be a yes.
And I don't quite believe I have to explain this, but there is one body taking action and one body being acted upon. In no way, shape or form is the force of said action equal to the two bodies involved. If you still don't believe me, go ask someone to punch you in the face and then compare his fist to your face.
- Tonybere

Lol so now you are trying to compare punching someone to a body check?

Also do you know how physics works?

Hmmm, let's see.
Hockey, football, rugby, boxing, Kung Fu (not as a sport). That would be a yes.
And I don't quite believe I have to explain this, but there is one body taking action and one body being acted upon. In no way, shape or form is the force of said action equal to the two bodies involved. If you still don't believe me, go ask someone to punch you in the face and then compare his fist to your face.
- Tonybere

I find this entire argument to be bizarre.

It's like they haven't ever watched playoff hockey.

If that happens, it is bad coaching, not player related.
- Mashadar

Well if I'm wasting my top D on Martin then that is bad coaching not player related.

I find this entire argument to be bizarre.

It's like they haven't ever watched playoff hockey.
- Atomic Wedgie

Nope. As a Red Wings fan I have never seen playoff hockey before.

How so? In the event of a hit 2 players both engage in physical contact. In what way does this event wear one player down more than the other?
- Feds91Stammer

This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen... You're basically saying that the guy hitting another guy is getting "worn down" as much as the guy getting hit.

When Stevens and Kariya collided they were both worn down the same.

The arguments against +/- are effective against pretty much all the advanced stats. It's impossible to accurately represent single players by using stats when there are 11 other players on the ice influencing things. That's why scouts are important because they actually watch the players play and apply context to the stats. You complain about the stats they focus on, but the same line of thought applies to any stat they decide to focus on. They're all equally useless when isolated.

I'm really tired of the analytic people always getting so defensive. No one is rallying against them and all teams use the advanced stats. But they're still not anything more than a useful aid. There's been nothing to support that that using analytics as your primary resource to build a team will have a positive effect. People raved over how much the Leafs were able to improve their numbers last year. They finished last. People were raving about the analytical approach the Coyotes were taking. They're last this year. Stats people kept calling the Weber trade a disaster. It's looking pretty good at the moment.

You also conveniently left out the main reason "hockey people" wouldn't like it is that he was fired immediately after a game and told to find his own way home.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen... You're basically saying that the guy hitting another guy is getting "worn down" as much as the guy getting hit.

When Stevens and Kariya collided they were both worn down the same.
- NugentHallberle

So a hit that is illegal and worthy of a 5 minute major, an ejection, and a suspension is the hit you pick?

Oh and Kariya came back and scored in that game...

While probably true, you said it. I just imply it!!!!! Honestly, the best part of this job is how frequently I am called stupid, dumb, an idiot, a moron, etc. etc. and yet, any implication that you might not be an idiot is SOooooooooooooo arrogant!

Number of times I've been called an idiot in real life, from the age of zero to 34: 0

Yet it occurs dozens of time per week online.
- James_Tanner

My friends call me an idiot multiple times a day in real life...

This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen... You're basically saying that the guy hitting another guy is getting "worn down" as much as the guy getting hit.

When Stevens and Kariya collided they were both worn down the same.
- NugentHallberle

This is exactly what I was debating against. You stated that two people engaging in a hit would be worn down equally. That is just totally wrong. Bodycheck, punch, kick, car accident, doesn't matter which.

So a hit that is illegal and worthy of a 5 minute major, an ejection, and a suspension is the hit you pick?

Oh and Kariya came back and scored in that game...
- Feds91Stammer

Legality of the hit doesn't matter. The point is, 99% of hits "wear down" the person getting hit more than the player delivering the hit. It's common knowledge to anyone that has ever played hockey. Ice time must be hard to find in Florida...

I find this entire argument to be bizarre.

It's like they haven't ever watched playoff hockey.
- Atomic Wedgie

I just wanted to get someone to punch him in the face.

I think you should seek professional help.
- Feds91Stammer

Holy (frank) I don't think James needs a babysitter.