Toews vs Sid is just a silly argument. Both Phenomenal players, with Sib being the best in the league for now. McDavid will take over in the next couple of years.

Toews is a first class player that plays in every situation. PP, PK, face-offs, and he is an excellent leader which goes back to his Canon World Junior/ UND days. Guy is a winner at every level.

Is $10 mil too much....ya probably, but there are plenty of overpaid players that did not help their team win cups in 2010, 2013, 2015, .....

I'll take JT on my team all day, and so would every other team in the league.

Toews vs Sid is just a silly argument. Both Phenomenal players, with Sib being the best in the league for now. McDavid will take over in the next couple of years.

Toews is a first class player that plays in every situation. PP, PK, face-offs, and he is an excellent leader which goes back to his Canon World Junior/ UND days. Guy is a winner at every level.

Is $10 mil too much....ya probably, but there are plenty of overpaid players that did not help their team win cups in 2010, 2013, 2015, .....

I'll take JT on my team all day, and so would every other team in the league.
- Boisy12

Nah only Sid is phenomenal. Toews is at best very good.

Toews vs Sid is just a silly argument. Both Phenomenal players, with Sib being the best in the league for now. McDavid will take over in the next couple of years.

Toews is a first class player that plays in every situation. PP, PK, face-offs, and he is an excellent leader which goes back to his Canon World Junior/ UND days. Guy is a winner at every level.

Is $10 mil too much....ya probably, but there are plenty of overpaid players that did not help their team win cups in 2010, 2013, 2015, .....

I'll take JT on my team all day, and so would every other team in the league.
- Boisy12

Nope, nope, and Nope.

Is there any data to prove the 2nd bolded part?

Toews isn't even in the top 3 JTs in the league.

Good call. I have heard he's a big believer and team member for Onnit.

https://www.onnit.com/

Funny thing, I never played at a high level at all, but a few years ago, I was trying to get into the best shape I could. I wanted to be really healthy, as well as have an edge on guys in my mens league (feel free to laugh). Anyways, I started working out and using a whey protein powder for recovery, etc. After a few weeks, I noticed a change in my body. Just wasn't feeling right. I made an appointment with my doctor and I brought the powder. He asked if I had made any changes to my diet, I showed him the can and he asked if I knew what was in it. I didn't and he told me neither did he. I guess a lot of those powders/supplements and so forth aren't regulated by the FDA and it's sort of unknown what's always in them.

I tossed the can right there and just focused on eating smarter and ended up feeling a lot better.

Now, that stuff works differently for everyone and a lot of people use it and it works for them, but it just didn't work for me and I stay clear of it from now on.

Not saying Onnit is a factor, but I think we all know that powders/supplements/etc. can effect the body in different ways-- some positive, some negative. It all depends on the person.
- Hank3Henshaw

Whey is a milk protein, that may have been a big part of the issue right there. I don't react negatively to it, but some do.

If you believe in 7-Day Creation, that Jesus rode a dinosaur, etc., stop reading . . . here.

What I have found, in terms of diet, after literally decades of trying this and that, is this:

Eat the way your body was evolved to thrive.

Think about it, up until about 10,000 years ago, when your ancestors began to settle down in one place and turned more to farming than hunting and gathering—that's what your ancestors did. They hunted and they gathered.

What that basically means is, when they could, they noshed here and there on nuts, mushrooms, maybe an occasional bird's egg and leafy vegetation around them, until they had a kill, and then they gorged on the protein and some fat from wild game.

Our bodies were evolved for literally over a million years to thrive on that diet. And lots of walking, and some occasional strenuous exercise.

So who has the ability to be a professional stalker/hunter of wild game these days? Right.

So what I do is intermittent fasting, I basically don't eat 16 hours a day, and when I do eat I try (try) to eat lean meat (wild or grass fed), green leafy vegetation, nuts, etc.

Admittedly, I eat way too much sugar/simple carbs. But then again, fasting 16 hours a day burns off all my glucose reserves and some fat—every day.

I don't know what Toews does, and I don't know a ton about Onnit beyond it is supposedly a line of "high-end" supplements, and probably not bad for you per se.

But the "royal road" to optimal health is the right kind and the right amount of real food at the right times.

I'm (educated) guessing, endorsements aside, that is how Toews and most of the better conditioned athletes in the NHL eat, too.

I don't care who is his LW and RW. Toews needs to step it up! His play is not acceptable. It's frustrating because he should be in his prime and I know he can do better offensive, but right now he doesn't deserve the 10,5Mil.
- PetterKane

I don't think anyone is disagreeing there.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing there.
- John Jaeckel

He never deserved 10.5m

Nope, nope, and Nope.

Is there any data to prove the 2nd bolded part?
- j.boyd919

DATA:

WJC Gold
3 Cups (as captain)
2 Olympic Golds
Conn Smythe
Selke

To say Toews' leadership is not proven to be pretty much off the charts is just silly. And probably troll-y.

Or ask a guy like Carson Shields or Geoff Waugh (among others) who grew up playing with him (I have).

This isn't data per se, but it speaks for itself.

When Mike Babcock was asked at the 2010 Olympics who his best forward was, his answer was:

"whoever's playing with Toews."

Let that sink in for a minute. Because it speaks volumes to the not-easily quantified things he does.

You've dumped all over Toews on this thread because it felt like someone was "dissing" Sid (which they weren't). But you've kinda gotten out over your skis a bit.

Even in his "off" state, still a helluva hockey player, and he might have a lot more tread on the tire than some imagine.

He never deserved 10.5m
- Feds91Stammer

If that is the case, than 99% of athletes don't deserve what they make.

He never deserved 10.5m
- Feds91Stammer

I pretty much agree with that. I think they overpaid both of them by about 1-1.5 million per a piece.

Cuz while Kane is an elite scorer/playmaker, there are aspects of his game that don't always make me want to cheer either.

If that is the case, than 99% of athletes don't deserve what they make.
- powerenforcer

He got paid for past performance and team achievements...

I pretty much agree with that. I think they overpaid both of them by about 1-1.5 million per a piece.

Cuz while Kane is an elite scorer/playmaker, there are aspects of his game that don't always make me want to cheer either.
- John Jaeckel

The fact that the contracts keep going up is stupid. All they do is raise escrow.

Nope, nope, and Nope.

Is there any data to prove the 2nd bolded part?
- j.boyd919

Ha ha ... just proves you have no idea what you are talking about. WG gold (A on his jersey), 2 Gold Medals (with an A on his jersey), oh and 3 Cups as a Captian.

Toews competes internationally for Team Canada and has won gold medals at the 2005 World U-17 Hockey Challenge, 2006 and 2007 World Junior Championships, 2007 World Championships, the 2010 Winter Olympics (a tournament in which he was named Best Forward) and the 2014 Winter Olympics.

Ha ha ... just proves you have no idea what you are talking about. WG gold (A on his jersey), 2 Gold Medals (with an A on his jersey), oh and 3 Cups as a Captian.

Toews competes internationally for Team Canada and has won gold medals at the 2005 World U-17 Hockey Challenge, 2006 and 2007 World Junior Championships, 2007 World Championships, the 2010 Winter Olympics (a tournament in which he was named Best Forward) and the 2014 Winter Olympics.
- Boisy12

Yay go team achievements with a letter on your jersey. Yay.

This argument proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

Whey is a milk protein, that may have been a big part of the issue right there. I don't react negatively to it, but some do.

If you believe in 7-Day Creation, that Jesus rode a dinosaur, etc., stop reading . . . here.

What I have found, in terms of diet, after literally decades of trying this and that, is this:

Eat the way your body was evolved to thrive.

Think about it, up until about 10,000 years ago, when your ancestors began to settle down in one place and turned more to farming than hunting and gathering—that's what your ancestors did. They hunted and they gathered.

What that basically means is, when they could, they noshed here and there on nuts, mushrooms, maybe an occasional bird's egg and leafy vegetation around them, until they had a kill, and then they gorged on the protein and some fat from wild game.

Our bodies were evolved for literally over a million years to thrive on that diet. And lots of walking, and some occasional strenuous exercise.

So who has the ability to be a professional stalker/hunter of wild game these days? Right.

So what I do is intermittent fasting, I basically don't eat 16 hours a day, and when I do eat I try (try) to eat lean meat (wild or grass fed), green leafy vegetation, nuts, etc.

Admittedly, I eat way too much sugar/simple carbs. But then again, fasting 16 hours a day burns off all my glucose reserves and some fat—every day.

I don't know what Toews does, and I don't know a ton about Onnit beyond it is supposedly a line of "high-end" supplements, and probably not bad for you per se.

But the "royal road" to optimal health is the right kind and the right amount of real food at the right times.

I'm (educated) guessing, endorsements aside, that is how Toews and most of the better conditioned athletes in the NHL eat, too.
- John Jaeckel

Good break down.

Interesting timing, too, as I just attended a talk for National Bison Day the first Saturday in November. A Native American guest speaker broke down the importance of the Indian hunter/gather lifestyle and how it was drastically changed in a matter of about 200 years (way too fast) and the effect it has had on the Indian population.

I've recently switched to eating more lean as well. What's interesting is looking back to when my mom and dad, and their parents, etc., were growing up and how much more basic the foods and selections were. Which was probably a better thing. Nowadays, there is all kinds of hormones, pesticides and things in our food that we're not entirely sure of it's effects on our bodies yet-- as my generation is sort of the first kind of growing up with these "super" foods. In light of this, I try to eat more of a basic diet.

I've adopted the idea of eating fruits and vegetables in their more raw state (although they're saying now that frozen is good, too)--after thoroughly washing, of course. The belief is when cooking and seasoning these foods, you essentially cook down and eliminate all the nutrients they have to offer. It's an interesting thought.

Anyways, back to "modern" food and all it's hormone-injected components...some believe there could be a correlation to them and certain cancers and other diseases that really weren't as rampant years ago when the food groups were simpler and not genetically altered.

Interesting things to ponder.

DATA:

WJC Gold
3 Cups (as captain)
2 Olympic Golds
Conn Smythe
Selke

To say Toews' leadership is not proven to be pretty much off the charts is just silly. And probably troll-y.

Or ask a guy like Carson Shields or Geoff Waugh (among others) who grew up playing with him (I have).

This isn't data per se, but it speaks for itself.

When Mike Babcock was asked at the 2010 Olympics who his best forward was, his answer was:

"whoever's playing with Toews."

Let that sink in for a minute. Because it speaks volumes to the not-easily quantified things he does.

You've dumped all over Toews on this thread because it felt like someone was "dissing" Sid (which they weren't). But you've kinda gotten out over your skis a bit.

Even in his "off" state, still a helluva hockey player, and he might have a lot more tread on the tire than some imagine.
- John Jaeckel

Nah, I was literally just trolling, from the get go

Do you realize how subtle the difference is between pulling off one of those moves and almost pulling it off?

Were you one of those guys talking about how Hossa was washed up and couldn't lift the puck anymore last year? If so, lighten up a bit.

Call "BS" all you want. I don't make poop up either. I saw it, like I said, I don't remember which team it was against, he made a power move to get though 2-3 defenders and almost converted it.

Again, try it sometime and see how easy it is to pull it off. Point is, that is not "evidence" of a dramatic fall off in ability.

Ever think that maybe those power moves (like the one against two TERRIBLE Av d-men, as I recall) also happened because he had a lot more open ice—which, if you ever played the game you KNOW comes from playing with better line mates.

There IS some visual, subjective "evidence" that Toews may not be quite what he once was. But everyone around here should know better than to write off a 28 year old player as being "finished" when the 38 year old player is at present making them all look a little ehhhhhm premature.


And I'll put the question to you. Who was it who took over games in the 2015 WCF, i believe he carried the Hawks in either Game 5 or 7 (again, I don't recall). Was that Toews? Or TT? Or Eric Nesterenko? Who WAS that?

And then what happened that summer that made his "physical ability fall off a cliff?"

Still waiting for the answer. Not "calling BS." Just waiting for an answer.
- John Jaeckel

I've always kept faith that Hossa would respond and have a bounce back season. He was still getting tons of SOG and scoring chances last year, just had a bad SH% and wasn't elevating enough shots. Maybe its a bit of luck that he's had a hot start, but i still see a dangerous offensive playmaker. And this is a guy that's well past his prime and obviously not the same dynamic talent he was 10 years ago, but still noticeable skill and now finishing his chances unlike last season.

And I'm not writing Toews off, i dont think he's finished, he just doesn't flash the same eye popping ability he once did in the offensive zone. And as a result isn't scoring goals/producing like he once did. Though not really a large drop off, its still noticeable.

And as far as the time frame I agree with you. I said "1 and 1/4 seasons", and "past 100 games". Essentially dating back to the beginning of last years regular season. I agree he was outstanding in the 2015 playoff run at times, especially game 7 of the WCF. But its ever since then that he really has regressed in terms of his ability to impact the game offensively. And it goes beyond looking at who he has at LW. I'm just talking about purely observing his play(his passing accuracy, his ability to shake defenders, win battles, his shot/release/accuracy). Not bad. But i don't see the dynamic playmaking ability over these past 100 or so games he's played.

He got paid for past performance and team achievements...
- Feds91Stammer

True though while past, the CS was an individual award in '10. At least there's been achievement where Toews is concerned...as opposed to say like Jimmy Howard's deal which he was rewarded after not quite beating the Hawks in '13.

While not Toews $$$ it also would seem like money not well spent.

Toews isn't even in the top 3 JTs in the league.
- Feds91Stammer

Jordin Tootoo?

Regarding last year and Toews, the other thing that didn't help was Kruger going down with injury. That left #19 as the only reliable FO guy on the team. He ended up taking more Dzone draws overall when consider PP/PK and EV Strength

Sure that is only about an extra 5% of his draws being in the Dzone, but I don't doubt that it takes a toll. So far the tend has continued with Toews taking even more Dzone draws.

Consider all these factors together, it adds up.

1) Wingers not finishing chances.
2) Taking more Dzone draws and spending more energy there.
3) 72/15/88 often being the first unit out on the PP. (AA is eating into his PP time and AA is getting the most PP time of his career)

Add in the fact that sometimes guys have off years or two or could be dealing with injury. I said this summer and I still think it is true, the Hawks could use a good defensive C to help take more Dzone load off Toews. Free him and his line up for more attacking and he will produce more points.

Yay go team achievements with a letter on your jersey. Yay.

This argument proves you have no idea what you are talking about.
- Feds91Stammer

Since Kane/Toews arrived and got Chicago back to a playoff team, who has the most playoff points? Kane and Toews. How about Game winning goals in the playoffs? Kane and Toews.

That is why they got paid. They show up in the playoffs and are clutch and the Hawks have won. Easy to understand.

Anyone that ever thought Toews was a better option for anything over Crosby should be medicated.
- Feds91Stammer

They both have concussion histories. Crosby missed much more time due to concussions and other injuries in the last 6 years that Toews. So his durability is in question. Toews selection to Olympic and World Cup Teams and his ice time thereof indicates to me he is very highly thought of by knowledgeable people. I have no problem deferring to Crosby as being the better player when they are both healthy. However there was a time when GM's were not sure if Crosby would ever return to form for extended periods of time after the concussions. Other players have not been able to return to elite status. How long Crosby will go before another concussion is another question. Since that time Toews has had some concussion issues too. Quite frankly I would say Hawk/Penguins fans, players, coaches and front office people hold their breadth each time either player takes a hard hit on the head. It is great to see either one of them play, worth the price of a very expensive ticket. It would be fun to see them go head to head in a Stanley Cup final, and not an impossibility either.

I think the most probable cause of his "decline" are in this order:

1. Nagging injury, like someone suggested lower back or shoulder. He looks stiff and slow compared to 2015 Toews. Someone mentioned the bench door incident against the blues. He's a proud competitor, so I have no doubt that he's played through a lot in his career. Like Bergeron, who is my next favourite (current) player after #19.

2. Short on confidence, and thus, creativity. His game is pretty stale, "by the numbers." This might be caused by #1. His turbo ain't spoolin'.

3. The hodge podge of wingers and the defensive slack he has taken up due to roster turnover. All valid and supported by data. They don't explain away his personal game turning into what it is, but they fit when it comes to his production. Watch him on the PK compared to years past. He's not a threat to score.

My take. I'm convinced he'll bounce back and tear it up once he's out of this funk.

I like Motte on the first line. Not as rough-necked as Panik or Hartman, but he's smart and he's got sneaky skills. I'd like to see if they can get some chemistry going. Hartman is fantastic as a 3rd liner.

Good call. I have heard he's a big believer and team member for Onnit.

https://www.onnit.com/

Funny thing, I never played at a high level at all, but a few years ago, I was trying to get into the best shape I could. I wanted to be really healthy, as well as have an edge on guys in my mens league (feel free to laugh). Anyways, I started working out and using a whey protein powder for recovery, etc. After a few weeks, I noticed a change in my body. Just wasn't feeling right. I made an appointment with my doctor and I brought the powder. He asked if I had made any changes to my diet, I showed him the can and he asked if I knew what was in it. I didn't and he told me neither did he. I guess a lot of those powders/supplements and so forth aren't regulated by the FDA and it's sort of unknown what's always in them.

I tossed the can right there and just focused on eating smarter and ended up feeling a lot better.

Now, that stuff works differently for everyone and a lot of people use it and it works for them, but it just didn't work for me and I stay clear of it from now on.

Not saying Onnit is a factor, but I think we all know that powders/supplements/etc. can effect the body in different ways-- some positive, some negative. It all depends on the person.
- Hank3Henshaw

To my knowledge based on articles, etc., Toews is not a recent convert to healthy eating. IIRC, he was having issues in his rookie year(s) and they finally attributed it to the food he was eating. Believe he cut out gluten and sugar(?) early in his professional career and said it really helped his health and performance. Part of the motivation behind his gardening and recent efforts to get kids to eat healthier foods.

As far as Onnit, he and Keith have been disciples of that group for a couple of years. They both did podcasts this year re: the philosophy of the group, but Toews is much more public with his support, pimping them and their products in interviews and social media. There's all kinds of physical (exercise, supplements, natural drugs, etc.) and mental (suppression of ego, polyamory, etc.) approaches involved in their program and some, I think, could have an effect on anyone's performance if taken too far.

One thing he did repeat in the iTunes podcasts (worth a listen for anyone wondering what is going on with him and/or what Onnit is about), and in couple of recent interviews, was that he was looking for more balance in his life. That, prior to his recent "finding of himself," he was obsessed in an unhealthy fashion with hockey and let it affect his moods and relationships too much. That, at least, explained to me one reason why he may have skipped out on the BH convention and the All Star Game (and don't tell me he was too sick to go - he chose vacation in Mexico instead and who can blame him).

I trust that the Blackhawks nutritionists and trainers have looked into what he is doing and are fine with it. If not, since at least two of their key players are incorporating it into their lives, they may want to.

I am personally more concerned about long-term effects of multiple concussions than anything. Falling down, bobbling or missing dead-on passes, uncharacteristic aggression, etc. all scream possible brain-related issues to me. Are there any stats, advanced or otherwise, that can compare these behaviors, other than fights/PIM, which we know he has had more of these last couple of years?

So the NHL players promoting ONNIT are Toews, Keith and Ladd...all having off years.
I wonder if the Hawks nutritionist pushes this stuff or if he can get the guys to stop using it.