It is when you consider who they are lining up against, who is also playing PK time, and playing different position. Playing C in the D zone is a lot different than being on the Wing in terms of responsibility.
- breadbag

They have nearly identical QoC and QoT. Kane scores more. Kane is more of a driver. Toews is more of a passenger. Kane is elite. Toews is very good.

I'm still think we are 1 forward or center away. One guy that might be had is Ryan spooner from BOS I would say he could be a good bottom 6 center on a line that has some scoring potential. Kind of a 3A and 3B with kurgers line getting the tough matchups. he does not make a lot and is a RFA after the year. if they are going to make a move I would really prefer they do in by Jan 1. the guys that come in at the trade deadline never really seem to get there feet underneath them.

I'm still think we are 1 forward or center away. One guy that might be had is Ryan spooner from BOS I would say he could be a good bottom 6 center on a line that has some scoring potential. Kind of a 3A and 3B with kurgers line getting the tough matchups. he does not make a lot and is a RFA after the year. if they are going to make a move I would really prefer they do in by Jan 1. the guys that come in at the trade deadline never really seem to get there feet underneath them.
- kmw4631

1 forward or center away from what?

1 forward or center away from what?
- Feds91Stammer

A more complete team???

I'm saying that his LW is irrelevant to the discussion about living up to his contract. When you make $10.5mil/year, you are expected to produce and carry a line, whether its Saad and Hossa or Panik and Schmaltz. The Top Players in this league like Crosby, Kane, ect have played with inferior talent on their lines for years and produced just fine. Kane FINALLY had a true top 6 C and LW on his line and you saw the results last year. Brandon Saad is an Elite 200ft LW, and I am not arguing that fact with you.

I watch 80 games per year and I have both played, coached and been a ice hockey referee so I like to think I have a pretty good eye for the game. Toews looks like he has lead in his skates and bricks in his gloves. He has ZERO explosiveness in his game and he had that as recently as 14/15 during the Cup run. You may not see it, but I see a guy that either is unhealthy, or unmotivated. I don't care to guess what it is, and you can disagree, but I'm not the only guy watching the games and the production and seeing the same thing.
- EnzoD

I cannot disagree with the first.

On the second, I have also played, and coached (multiple sports), worked out with and studied under elite trainers, etc.

He looked like crap last year, but he looks in shape and more explosive this year. But, I will grant, maybe not as strong in the corners, which could be due to a weight loss that appears to my eye anyway.

But I will repeat, I have not heard or seen anything that proves there is meaningful physical deterioration. At this point, the best you have is a completely subjective set of opinions, with lots of variance I might add.

They have nearly identical QoC and QoT. Kane scores more. Kane is more of a driver. Toews is more of a passenger. Kane is elite. Toews is very good.
- Feds91Stammer

Toews kills penalties, Kane doesn't. That does make a difference. Although I agree completely they are different kinds of players, not sure I say one is elite and one is very good. They serve different roles, and as such, aside from an off year+, Toews is still one of the top 5-10 two way players in the game, also arguably the best FO guy in the league among other things.

I cannot disagree with the first.

On the second, I have also played, and coached (multiple sports), worked out with and studied under elite trainers, etc.

He looked like crap last year, but he looks in shape and more explosive this year. But, I will grant, maybe not as strong in the corners, which could be due to a weight loss that appears to my eye anyway.

But I will repeat, I have not heard or seen anything that proves there is meaningful physical deterioration. At this point, the best you have is a completely subjective set of opinions, with lots of variance I might add.
- John Jaeckel

JJ, I'm not questioning your hockey knowledge or eye for the game. Not at all. I'm just commenting on what I'm seeing from 19 shift-in shift out, and the production aligns with my assessment. I hope he gets back to being the player we all know and love.

Toews kills penalties, Kane doesn't. That does make a difference. Although I agree completely they are different kinds of players, not sure I say one is elite and one is very good. They serve different roles, and as such, aside from an off year+, Toews is still one of the top 5-10 two way players in the game, also arguably the best FO guy in the league among other things.
- John Jaeckel

Out of the top 100 players in faceoffs taken last season Toews was 89th in NSPF per puckbase.com

Out of the top 100 this year he is 57th.

I'm gonna call BS on this. He hasn't done anything close to what he did on that goal in a long time. He might "attempt" moves like that, but he can't come close to executing/pulling them off. Call it only my opinion, but i just don't see him as that type of player anymore that can flash world class offensive skills.
- SimpleJack

Do you realize how subtle the difference is between pulling off one of those moves and almost pulling it off?

Were you one of those guys talking about how Hossa was washed up and couldn't lift the puck anymore last year? If so, lighten up a bit.

Call "BS" all you want. I don't make poop up either. I saw it, like I said, I don't remember which team it was against, he made a power move to get though 2-3 defenders and almost converted it.

Again, try it sometime and see how easy it is to pull it off. Point is, that is not "evidence" of a dramatic fall off in ability.

Ever think that maybe those power moves (like the one against two TERRIBLE Av d-men, as I recall) also happened because he had a lot more open ice—which, if you ever played the game you KNOW comes from playing with better line mates.

There IS some visual, subjective "evidence" that Toews may not be quite what he once was. But everyone around here should know better than to write off a 28 year old player as being "finished" when the 38 year old player is at present making them all look a little ehhhhhm premature.


And I'll put the question to you. Who was it who took over games in the 2015 WCF, i believe he carried the Hawks in either Game 5 or 7 (again, I don't recall). Was that Toews? Or TT? Or Eric Nesterenko? Who WAS that?

And then what happened that summer that made his "physical ability fall off a cliff?"

Still waiting for the answer. Not "calling BS." Just waiting for an answer.

Look, just my opinion, but I don't think there is that much of a mystery.

He scored slightly less last year, while Hossa struggled to beat goalies (and missed time with injury) and the coach tried about 15 different players on his LW. While maybe not his best year, if his wingers were performing, he would have matched his average scoring or close to it. There were games where Toews had a 3rd liner and a 4th liner on either side. (especially when Hossa was hurt)

Toews had a slow start offensively, that is true. Even though Toews/Kane haven't clicked, you have to consider that he has had a lot of makeshift guys on his line as auditions this year. The blender has given Toews a lot of different linemates.

Toews has managed more shots on net than typical for him but is only shooting at about half his normal %. It will even out.

Out of the top 100 players in faceoffs taken last season Toews was 89th in NSPF per puckbase.com

Out of the top 100 this year he is 57th.
- Feds91Stammer

Help me out, seriously, what is NSPF?

He is second in the league in overall face-off% per that site. Not following you.

Look, just my opinion, but I don't think there is that much of a mystery.

He scored slightly less last year, while Hossa struggled to beat goalies (and missed time with injury) and the coach tried about 15 different players on his LW. While maybe not his best year, if his wingers were performing, he would have matched his average scoring or close to it. There were games where Toews had a 3rd liner and a 4th liner on either side. (especially when Hossa was hurt)

Toews had a slow start offensively, that is true. Even though Toews/Kane haven't clicked, you have to consider that he has had a lot of makeshift guys on his line as auditions this year. The blender has given Toews a lot of different linemates.

Toews has managed more shots on net than typical for him but is only shooting at about half his normal %. It will even out.
- breadbag

His goals were about average for him. His assists were off. Which suggests what?

It is a difficult and tough discussion to have. This guy has played A LOT of hockey at the highest level in the world since year 2 of his career. Not as just another guy on the roster either, bu I guy relied on in ALL situations. He is burnt out. You can train, adjust eating whatever it may be. But he is just tired.

Now, as far as his numbers go, I can see what guys like Enzo and others have stated. At 10.5 the intangible argument, IMO, is not going to cut it. But this is a double edged sword. He is one of the most competitive players in sports. He and Kane want to carry the load and dont want to take less so they can bring in "help" bc the pride factor. But.....taking less means you have a young 0 something year old on your left wing to work the boards on those nights you dont have the juice. So it is a weird argument that seems to go in a circle. He needs a left wing and the absence of one is hurting his production, but he would if he didnt take 10.5.

I want to know what his injury is. If it is another knocker to the head, production could be the least of our concerns.

Help me out, seriously, what is NSPF?

He is second in the league in overall face-off% per that site. Not following you.
- John Jaeckel

Net Shots Post-Faceoff (NSPF) estimates a face-off taker's contribution to puck possession by counting shot flow (shots-for minus shots-against) during the 10 seconds following a player's face-offs in 5-versus-5 situations, and comparing it to a league-average face-off taker. NSPF is calculated for each of the offensive, defensive, and netural zones; the overall NSPF is their sum.

JJ, I'm not questioning your hockey knowledge or eye for the game. Not at all. I'm just commenting on what I'm seeing from 19 shift-in shift out, and the production aligns with my assessment. I hope he gets back to being the player we all know and love.
- EnzoD

I hear ya, nor am I questioning you. I hope you hear me saying I am not sure one way or the other about a decline in his physical ability. I'm just not sure. And to deny the other factors is just kind of silly.

Help me out, seriously, what is NSPF?

He is second in the league in overall face-off% per that site. Not following you.
- John Jaeckel

Faceoffs aren't just about winning them. It is also about what you do after you win them. According to NSPF last season Toews was negative and this year he is right around even.

Net Shots Post-Faceoff (NSPF) estimates a face-off taker's contribution to puck possession by counting shot flow (shots-for minus shots-against) during the 10 seconds following a player's face-offs in 5-versus-5 situations, and comparing it to a league-average face-off taker. NSPF is calculated for each of the offensive, defensive, and netural zones; the overall NSPF is their sum.
- Feds91Stammer

Is it weighted for the number of draws in those zones? Can you confirm that?

If not, throw it out for any guy, like Toews, who takes a lot of d-zone draws.

Also, please help me if I'm wrong here. Would playing with Ryan Garbutt or an out of position Andrew Shaw on one of your wings, and Hossa having a bad year, impact that particular sliver of a stat? Unless, again, it is weighted for the quality of line mates, it might be somewhat subjective at best.

My point was arguably the best FO guy in the league, not the best NSPF guy. He is second at present.

Faceoffs aren't just about winning them. It is also about what you do after you win them. According to NSPF last season Toews was negative and this year he is right around even.
- Feds91Stammer

And what you do with them has a TON to do with where they're taken and who is on your line. Or am I wrong?

Again, you have not disputed the actual point I made.

You are citing a stat that is actually about what happens after the draw is taken. Totally irrelevant (sorry).

Not trying to be a Richard, but fair's fair.

I hear ya, nor am I questioning you. I hope you hear me saying I am not sure one way or the other about a decline in his physical ability. I'm just not sure. And to deny the other factors is just kind of silly.
- John Jaeckel

In terms of overall point production, you are 100% correct that his linemates are a factor. I'm simply saying that when 19 enters the O-zone with the puck on his stick this season, not much happens. That never used to be the case. Hope they give him all the rest needed to come back fully healthy and get some offensive confidence back.

Is it weighted for the number of draws in those zones? Can you confirm that?

If not, throw it out for any guy, like Toews, who takes a lot of d-zone draws.

Also, please help me if I'm wrong here. Would playing with Ryan Garbutt or an out opposition Andrew Shaw on one of your wings, and Hossa having a bad year, impact that particular sliver of a stat? Unless, again, it is weighted for the quality of line mates, it might be somewhat subjective at best.

My point was arguably the best FO guy in the league, not the best NSPF guy. He is second at present.
- John Jaeckel

Just making the point that just winning them doesn't mean a whole lot. A lot obviously goes into it with the QoT as you mention but when you are below Glendening in any stat that is pretty alarming.

http://puckbase.com/2015/...ot-based-face-off-metric/

And what you do with them has a TON to do with where they're taken and who is on your line. Or am I wrong?

Again, you have not disputed the actual point I made.

You are citing a stat that is actually about what happens after the draw is taken. Totally irrelevant (sorry).

Not trying to be a Richard, but fair's fair.
- John Jaeckel

What happens after the draw is the exact reason faceoffs are deemed important.

Enzo...I think you are spot on with everything you're saying


And while Toews may have defensive "pressures" and the PK (which has been incredibly awful), Kane for years continues to have the other teams best defenders and teams doing everything the can to try to stop him, yet he still produces - regardless of linemates.

The simplest answer, and possibly the most obvious one that we may be ignoring - he has simply lost his confidence.

Confidence means everything, and it may be exacerbated by an injury. I have seen a disturbing trend of his to easily get enticed into retaliating and losing his focus playing the rough stuff as well.

They have nearly identical QoC and QoT. Kane scores more. Kane is more of a driver. Toews is more of a passenger. Kane is elite. Toews is very good.
- Feds91Stammer

That's your opinion sure. You are entitled to it, but there is still context missing to those stats. The two players don't handle the same defensive responsibilities in the Dzone. I'm not saying Toews will match Kane in offensive production, but they are much different players.

Do you realize how subtle the difference is between pulling off one of those moves and almost pulling it off?

Were you one of those guys talking about how Hossa was washed up and couldn't lift the puck anymore last year? If so, lighten up a bit.

Call "BS" all you want. I don't make poop up either. I saw it, like I said, I don't remember which team it was against, he made a power move to get though 2-3 defenders and almost converted it.

Again, try it sometime and see how easy it is to pull it off. Point is, that is not "evidence" of a dramatic fall off in ability.

Ever think that maybe those power moves (like the one against two TERRIBLE Av d-men, as I recall) also happened because he had a lot more open ice—which, if you ever played the game you KNOW comes from playing with better line mates.

There IS some visual, subjective "evidence" that Toews may not be quite what he once was. But everyone around here should know better than to write off a 28 year old player as being "finished" when the 38 year old player is at present making them all look a little ehhhhhm premature.


And I'll put the question to you. Who was it who took over games in the 2015 WCF, i believe he carried the Hawks in either Game 5 or 7 (again, I don't recall). Was that Toews? Or TT? Or Eric Nesterenko? Who WAS that?

And then what happened that summer that made his "physical ability fall off a cliff?"

Still waiting for the answer. Not "calling BS." Just waiting for an answer.
- John Jaeckel

I believe he pretty much singlehandedly tied up game 5 (2 goals in the last two minutes) to send it to OT which unfortunately the Ducks won on Bleseky's goal...pretty sure that's how game 5 went.

He scored the first two goals in game 7 of that series and the Hawks never looked back.