Hossa has gotten too old to carry Toews.

Oh, I won't argue the tanking methods... except you DO need to fact check the "tanking for Mario" claim. They were near 50-50 on taking him or the guy who went 2nd that year for the bulk of the season in GM meetings. And that is also quite documented.
- Guile

Oh, yea. I don't care either way, as I'm not a Pens fan or anything.

Here is the documentary. Only like 25 minutes. I think you'll find it interesting how the front office guys, coach and players at the time all talk about the events today and how the brass holds firm they weren't tanking, but the coach says they 100% were.

Pretty interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-CRnk6fH0c

Excuses are like you know what, everyone has one. You can't start the blog off comparing him to Crosby and then say that he needs a Top 10 LW in the NHL to be effective. Crosby, Kane, Malkin, ect have all carried bottom 6 talent on their lines for the last decade. It has become clear that Toews' Numbers were inflated by HOF and All-Star talent on his line for his entire career in Hossa, Sharp and Saad. Until he proves that he can create his own offense with the puck on his stick, he is vastly overpaid. Arguably the best Faceoff and Defense-First Center in the league, but 50 points and defense is not worth $10.5mil/season in this hard cap. Hopefully his current injury is minor and he can start making plays like we all remember from a few years ago. I just don't see the jump or creativity in his game the last year or so. Regardless of whether he gets back to 70 points/year this year or ever, this team runs through 2+19. Q and Co. need him back to contend this year and moving forward.

Yeah, try watching ANY other documentary than the one they just put out. Every single one laughs about how they were not certain he was their guy until a few weeks before the draft.
- Guile

Do you know what documentaries? I definitely want to watch them.

When i defend the Toews contract its really based on everything he's done for us, what it meant, what we owed him for it, and how hard he works as an all around player/leader on the team. His grinding during the playoffs despite playing hurt. etc.

However there is no denying that he's lost his dynamic offensive playmaking ability. Does not look nearly as fast/skilled/creative/dangerous in the Ozone as he did earlier in his career. This has been going on for AT LEAST the past 1 and 1/4 seasons.

Remember that insane goal he scored against the Avs his rookie year? You'll never see anything close to that again. He's lost "it", whatever it was. And the thing is take Kane for example....regardless of who's playing on his line....Kane goes out there and dazzles and flashes skill that if anything is even more eye popping than what he did earlier in his career(so at age 27 in his prime he's improved, not regressed). I know Kane and Toews aren't the same type of player at all, but Toews never used to be this putrid offensively, and its gotta be some sort of chain reaction of injury after injury that's broken him down.

You don't need to worry about who's been playing on his wing, just watch him in a vacuum he's not the same player offensively. No way around it. Still an elite 2way C. Still a legit 1C. But he's more like Bergeron at this point, and very, VERY far from Crosby status.

Hossa has gotten too old to carry Toews.
- Feds91Stammer

I know you are just trolling bc the Wings are irrelevant these days. But you do raise a valid point that I think most Hawks' fans are unwilling to accept. Toews played with Hossa and Sharp/Saad for almost his entire career. Meanwhile, Patrick Kane carried 3rd liners and guys in the twilight of their career (Handzus, Richards) and still produced offense every night. Until proven otherwise, 19 should be paying Saad, Hossa and Sharp 10% of the $121,000 he makes per game.

Crosby had a "half season from hell" last year. His numbers were waaaay down and he didn't look like the same player. The coach and system were a terrible fit too.

It's hard to imagine these great players are human and they struggle every once and while. Crosby came out and admitted he was having confidence issues which was kind of a shocking admission considering his great career.

Anyway, I'm sure JT will return to his former self soon enough. Just like Crosby, It may take awhile however. He's 28 not 38.
- madmike71

That, all day long.

I know you are just trolling bc the Wings are irrelevant these days. But you do raise a valid point that I think most Hawks' fans are unwilling to accept. Toews played with Hossa and Sharp/Saad for almost his entire career. Meanwhile, Patrick Kane carried 3rd liners and guys in the twilight of their career (Handzus, Richards) and still produced offense every night. Until proven otherwise, 19 should be paying Saad, Hossa and Sharp 10% of the $121,000 he makes per game.
- EnzoD

I'm not trolling. I've actually looked at the numbers. Yes Detroit sucks but that doesn't invalidate my comment.

Honestly the only reason there was a Crosby V. Toews debate was because Crosby missed so much god damn time between 10' and 13'. Toews got his Smythe and joined the Triple cold club in 2010, as well as beating out crosby in vancouver for the best forward in the tournament (Crosby was healthy in 09/10 fwiw).

Then in 10/11 crosby played half the season, and the pens missed the playoffs completely. Then 11/12 where crosby played 22 games. and then crosby played the full lockout shortened season (36GP of 48) where he was extremely effective but didn't win any major trophies.

So the comparison was really to a lack of crosby than to crosby in hindsight.
- the_dough_boy

A great insight.

I'm not trolling. I've actually looked at the numbers. Yes Detroit sucks but that doesn't invalidate my comment.
- Feds91Stammer

I just had to get a dig in....miss that Rivalry. Hey man, I agree with you. Hawks fans are in denial bc of all he's done for this franchise. Numbers, and the eye test, don't lie.

When i defend the Toews contract its really based on everything he's done for us, what it meant, what we owed him for it, and how hard he works as an all around player/leader on the team. His grinding during the playoffs despite playing hurt. etc.

However there is no denying that he's lost his dynamic offensive playmaking ability. Does not look nearly as fast/skilled/creative/dangerous in the Ozone as he did earlier in his career. This has been going on for AT LEAST the past 1 and 1/4 seasons.

Remember that insane goal he scored against the Avs his rookie year? You'll never see anything close to that again. He's lost "it", whatever it was. And the thing is take Kane for example....regardless of who's playing on his line....Kane goes out there and dazzles and flashes skill that if anything is even more eye popping than what he did earlier in his career(so at age 27 in his prime he's improved, not regressed). I know Kane and Toews aren't the same type of player at all, but Toews never used to be this putrid offensively, and its gotta be some sort of chain reaction of injury after injury that's broken him down.

You don't need to worry about who's been playing on his wing, just watch him in a vacuum he's not the same player offensively. No way around it. Still an elite 2way C. Still a legit 1C. But he's more like Bergeron at this point, and very, VERY far from Crosby status.
- SimpleJack

He pulled a move like that on someone earlier this year (I forget which team). Problem is, there is no evidence beyond your opinion that he has physically lost something. If there were, it would merit discussion. But there isn't.

I will continue to worry about who's playing on his wing because that is valid. The "drop off" from Brandon Saad to ANYONE the Hawks have put there, ANYONE, is dramatic. And there is a poop ton of actual facts to back that up.

You (or anyone) can repeat that the "Top 6" is A-OK all you want. Doesn't make it any more true.

I think you're on to something I have touched on here in the thread once or twice. Toews seems to do better with power wingers on both sides. You can even point to Brouwer and Carcillo. Heck, Sharp can do some heavy lifting in the corners when needed.
- John Jaeckel

Still think Panik needs to be with 19. He is the only winger with the power forward type build outside of Hartman. Maybe its a coin flip between 38 and 14. Both skate well and both forecheck with an edge. Neither is the finisher that Saad was, but what other options are there? Hartman is showing signs that he could be the real deal. I like how he attacks the net and is usually in the right spot.

I just had to get a dig in....miss that Rivalry. Hey man, I agree with you. Hawks fans are in denial bc of all he's done for this franchise. Numbers, and the eye test, don't lie.
- EnzoD

So Enzo, tell me, what happened to him in the summer of 2015. Because the numbers and the eye test suggest he was just fine in 14-15, real fine. Then last October . . . pfffftttt.

Meanwhile: Dano, Shaw, TT, Garbutt (Garbutt!), Panik, Motte, Hartman, Schmaltz on his left wing.

Please tell me how any of those guys is the equal of Brandon Saad, and in what way.

Or how an increased workload in d-zone situations after the exit of vermette and Richards has helped him offensively.

I just want to hear the fact-based argument that Toews individually has lost something. Other than a very good wing on his left side.

I am not 100% sure he HASN'T lost something physically either. I just don't have any evidence of it.

I'm not being a snark either. I just want to have an argument/discussion based on facts we know to be true, not someone's opinion of what is at best conjecture.

I know you are just trolling bc the Wings are irrelevant these days. But you do raise a valid point that I think most Hawks' fans are unwilling to accept. Toews played with Hossa and Sharp/Saad for almost his entire career. Meanwhile, Patrick Kane carried 3rd liners and guys in the twilight of their career (Handzus, Richards) and still produced offense every night. Until proven otherwise, 19 should be paying Saad, Hossa and Sharp 10% of the $121,000 he makes per game.
- EnzoD

Kane also produced that offense in a much different situation and a lot of it with the team putting him in a position to score rather than defend. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Consider this, swap Toews and Kane in the lineup. Give Kane the shutdown assignments at center, PK time, Dzone draws and all that come with it. I mean, if you want to compare Toews against Kane's strength in playmaking and offensive production, then you might as well do it both ways. If Toews should be on the level offensively that Kane is, then Kane should be just as good as Toews at everything else right?

Kane also produced that offense in a much different situation and a lot of it with the team putting him in a position to score rather than defend. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Consider this, swap Toews and Kane in the lineup. Give Kane the shutdown assignments at center, PK time, Dzone draws and all that come with it. I mean, if you want to compare Toews against Kane's strength in playmaking and offensive production, then you might as well do it both ways. If Toews should be on the level offensively that Kane is, then Kane should be just as good as Toews at everything else right?
- breadbag

In my opinion this is rhetorically correct. And he is relying somewhat on facts.

I just had to get a dig in....miss that Rivalry. Hey man, I agree with you. Hawks fans are in denial bc of all he's done for this franchise. Numbers, and the eye test, don't lie.
- EnzoD

Unfortunately all teams have large groups of fans in denial. I have been telling people for years Dekeyser isn't any good and now he gets a big contract and people are like wow he is brutal.

Still think Panik needs to be with 19. He is the only winger with the power forward type build outside of Hartman. Maybe its a coin flip between 38 and 14. Both skate well and both forecheck with an edge. Neither is the finisher that Saad was, but what other options are there? Hartman is showing signs that he could be the real deal. I like how he attacks the net and is usually in the right spot.
- z1990z

I could be down with Hartman. But they need to give him ten games there to see if he can mesh.

Honestly the only reason there was a Crosby V. Toews debate was because Crosby missed so much god damn time between 10' and 13'. Toews got his Smythe and joined the Triple cold club in 2010, as well as beating out crosby in vancouver for the best forward in the tournament (Crosby was healthy in 09/10 fwiw).

Then in 10/11 crosby played half the season, and the pens missed the playoffs completely. Then 11/12 where crosby played 22 games. and then crosby played the full lockout shortened season (36GP of 48) where he was extremely effective but didn't win any major trophies.

So the comparison was really to a lack of crosby than to crosby in hindsight.
- the_dough_boy

This pretty much sums it up. Crosby is a generational offensive talent, and I have to believe the only reason GMs said they'd build a team around Toews was because nobody knew what Crosby's future looked like given his concussion issues.

I agree with the comment that the more apt comparison for Toews is with Bergeron.

I still believe that Toews has an injury. It's hard to believe that no first rate LW would be the real reason why he is struggling so much. I don't expect to ever know the real answer, though, because these injuries are often a top secret plus matter.

Kane also produced that offense in a much different situation and a lot of it with the team putting him in a position to score rather than defend. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Consider this, swap Toews and Kane in the lineup. Give Kane the shutdown assignments at center, PK time, Dzone draws and all that come with it. I mean, if you want to compare Toews against Kane's strength in playmaking and offensive production, then you might as well do it both ways. If Toews should be on the level offensively that Kane is, then Kane should be just as good as Toews at everything else right?
- breadbag

The last 3 seasons plus this season Toews started 25% of his 5v5 shifts in the D zone. Kane 21%. The usage isn't nearly as different as you think it is.

So Enzo, tell me, what happened to him in the summer of 2015. Because the numbers and the eye test suggest he was just fine in 14-15, real fine. Then last October . . . pfffftttt.

Meanwhile: Dano, Shaw, TT, Garbutt (Garbutt!), Panik, Motte, Hartman, Schmaltz on his left wing.

Please tell me how any of those guys is the equal of Brandon Saad, and in what way.

Or how an increased workload in d-zone situations after the exit of vermette and Richards has helped him offensively.

I just want to hear the fact-based argument that Toews individually has lost something. Other than a very good wing on his left side.

I am not 100% sure he HASN'T lose something physically either. I just don't have any evidence of it.

I'm not being a snark either. I just want to have an argument/discussion based on facts we know to be true, not someone's opinion of what is at best conjecture.
- John Jaeckel

I'm saying that his LW is irrelevant to the discussion about living up to his contract. When you make $10.5mil/year, you are expected to produce and carry a line, whether its Saad and Hossa or Panik and Schmaltz. The Top Players in this league like Crosby, Kane, ect have played with inferior talent on their lines for years and produced just fine. Kane FINALLY had a true top 6 C and LW on his line and you saw the results last year. Brandon Saad is an Elite 200ft LW, and I am not arguing that fact with you.

I watch 80 games per year and I have both played, coached and been a ice hockey referee so I like to think I have a pretty good eye for the game. Toews looks like he has lead in his skates and bricks in his gloves. He has ZERO explosiveness in his game and he had that as recently as 14/15 during the Cup run. You may not see it, but I see a guy that either is unhealthy, or unmotivated. I don't care to guess what it is, and you can disagree, but I'm not the only guy watching the games and the production and seeing the same thing.

The last 3 seasons plus this season Toews started 25% of his 5v5 shifts in the D zone. Kane 21%. The usage isn't nearly as different as you think it is.
- Feds91Stammer

It is when you consider who they are lining up against, who is also playing PK time, and playing different position. Playing C in the D zone is a lot different than being on the Wing in terms of responsibility.

Kane also produced that offense in a much different situation and a lot of it with the team putting him in a position to score rather than defend. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Consider this, swap Toews and Kane in the lineup. Give Kane the shutdown assignments at center, PK time, Dzone draws and all that come with it. I mean, if you want to compare Toews against Kane's strength in playmaking and offensive production, then you might as well do it both ways. If Toews should be on the level offensively that Kane is, then Kane should be just as good as Toews at everything else right?
- breadbag

I'm not a new hockey fan who's never played the game. I understand 100% what Toews does as far as defense first, faceoffs, ect. I don't have the time to research useage, zone starts, advanced stats and all that. I was under the impression that Kruger got the worst zone starts and matchups the last few years. Feel free to share info on that. But when you are paid $10.5mil, you need to produce offense too. Simple as that, IMO. Do you see explosive plays from 19? I have not in a LONG time.

I could be down with Hartman. But they need to give him ten games there to see if he can mesh.
- John Jaeckel

The more I think about it the more Hartman makes sense. He seems to have the better all around skill set. Im sure he will have OMG terrible games, but he is still a rookie in terms of NHL games played. He has a swagger out there. Solid build, signs of good hands, good wheels and a Shaw like mentality in PO opposing players.

And either 19 has a legit injury he is hiding or... dont know. The effort is there without a doubt. The days of dominance are over. Still have not recovered from the loss of Saad and Sharp and the core is older. This salary cap issue has made this a watered down 50/50 league.

Try to stay healthy and make the playoffs. Thats the goal.

I could be down with Hartman. But they need to give him ten games there to see if he can mesh.
- John Jaeckel

I'd be good with Hartman or Panik. Schmaltz makes me think we still have Versteeg. He has a number of "wow" moments on the ice, but overall it looks like he can't decide what to do (pass, shoot, or skate) when he gets in the offensive zone.

He pulled a move like that on someone earlier this year (I forget which team). Problem is, there is no evidence beyond your opinion that he has physically lost something. If there were, it would merit discussion. But there isn't.

I will continue to worry about who's playing on his wing because that is valid. The "drop off" from Brandon Saad to ANYONE the Hawks have put there, ANYONE, is dramatic. And there is a poop ton of actual facts to back that up.

You (or anyone) can repeat that the "Top 6" is A-OK all you want. Doesn't make it any more true.
- John Jaeckel

I'm gonna call BS on this. He hasn't done anything close to what he did on that goal in a long time. He might "attempt" moves like that, but he can't come close to executing/pulling them off. Call it only my opinion, but i just don't see him as that type of player anymore that can flash world class offensive skills.