Anyone want to cry?

Look at +/- for G, Jake, Schenn, Coots and Wayne.


- dragonoffrost

Let me fix that for you....

Look at +/- for the top 11 point producers on the team, only Brandon Manning is a +.

Except the game isnt just played at 5 on 5. The facts are what they are , to this point in the season he has not been good enough offensively or defensively tbh.

1. 10th on the team in scoring
2. Being outscored by 3 defensemen with one of them being Manning.
3. -5

Prior to this season so far I had no issues with what he brought to the team because he was a good shutdown player that produced. So far this year he is neither of those things..If you are happy with his play and various turnovers this year then your just as blind as people who say he will never be more then a 3rd line shutdown player.

Im not one of those people but he has had a bad season and isnt producing on either side of the puck.
- opeth_pa

Just as easily I could say these things:

-There are only 4 plus players on the team
-Giroux is minus 9, Schenn minus 7, Simmonds minus 6
-Steve Mason GAA 3.24, SV% .884, Neuvirth GAA 3.54, SV% .859


I would say that there are a lot of problems on this team right now.

Except the game isnt just played at 5 on 5. The facts are what they are , to this point in the season he has not been good enough offensively or defensively tbh.

1. 10th on the team in scoring
2. Being outscored by 3 defensemen with one of them being Manning.
3. -5

Prior to this season so far I had no issues with what he brought to the team because he was a good shutdown player that produced. So far this year he is neither of those things..If you are happy with his play and various turnovers this year then your just as blind as people who say he will never be more then a 3rd line shutdown player.

Im not one of those people but he has had a bad season and isnt producing on either side of the puck.
- opeth_pa

That's the unfortunate truth. Hopefully he bounces back. You can see in certain situations, such as when he has the puck on the half wall on the PP, that he is hesitant, and lacks confidence offensively. He's in a funk, no doubt.

Except the game isnt just played at 5 on 5. The facts are what they are , to this point in the season he has not been good enough offensively or defensively tbh.

1. 10th on the team in scoring
2. Being outscored by 3 defensemen with one of them being Manning.
3. -5

Prior to this season so far I had no issues with what he brought to the team because he was a good shutdown player that produced. So far this year he is neither of those things..If you are happy with his play and various turnovers this year then your just as blind as people who say he will never be more then a 3rd line shutdown player.

Im not one of those people but he has had a bad season and isnt producing on either side of the puck.
- opeth_pa

-5 means he's been very bad, so you must be ready to trade Provorov and Giroux who are -9 and therefore must have been simply awful. Bellemare is +3 so obviously he should move up to 2C.

Just as easily I could say these things:

-There are only 4 plus players on the team
-Giroux is minus 9, Schenn minus 7, Simmonds minus 6
-Steve Mason GAA 3.24, SV% .884, Neuvirth GAA 3.54, SV% .859


I would say that there are a lot of problems on this team right now.
- J35Bacher

Without a doubt but the reason i listed those stats is because certain people seem unwilling to say "Coots has sucked this year offensively and defensively"

Additionally you cant cherry pick stats either..Yup, Giroux is a -9 and Jake a -7 but they lead the team in scoring and are both top 10 in the league in scoring..

Let me fix that for you....

Look at +/- for the top 11 point producers on the team, only Brandon Manning is a +.
- opeth_pa

Johnny Gaudreau and Sean Monahan are both a -10 and TJ Brodie is a -11. Think we could flip Calgary a few 3rds for these 3 terrible players?

Edit: Jamie Benn is a -6. Maybe we can do Dallas a favor by trading them PEB or Cousins (both + players) and a 5th for him.

That's the unfortunate truth. Hopefully he bounces back. You can see in certain situations, such as when he has the puck on the half wall on the PP, that he is hesitant, and lacks confidence offensively. He's in a funk, no doubt.
- MJL

And look at it this way. Everyone wants Couturier to have a more offensive mind set. That means more risks in pushing the puck or trying to make things happen. His line has probably been the most consistent threat every night.

If Couturier was put on the market how many teams would be interested in him?

And look at it this way. Everyone wants Couturier to have a more offensive mind set. That means more risks in pushing the puck or trying to make things happen. His line has probably been the most consistent threat every night.

If Couturier was put on the market how many teams would be interested in him?
- J35Bacher

Most likely 25+. That doesn't mean that he has been largely underwhelming this season to date.

I think it's time to totally clean house. Get rid of Giroux, Simmonds, Couturier, and Schenn, as they're lazy, overpaid bums. Bring up some guys from the Phantoms who I'm sure will be better fits. Then send off the turnover machine known as Ghost, the walking suspension named Gudas, and soon-to-be UFA Del Zotto, and bring up Brennan, Morin, and Sanheim. Get rid of Mason and Neuvirth while they still have any value left at all.

Problems solved.
- jmatchett383

Most likely 25+. That doesn't mean that he has been largely underwhelming this season to date.
- jmatchett383

He has. But on this team who hasn't.

I want more offense from him. But I also think he has something to do with his line being a consistent threat every night.

But out of all the problems on this team right now I don't think Couturier is near the top.

-5 means he's been very bad, so you must be ready to trade Provorov and Giroux who are -9 and therefore must have been simply awful. Bellemare is +3 so obviously he should move up to 2C.
- Feanor

Are you sure you arent Coots?

Can you honestly say he hasnt had a bad season so far both offensively and defensively?

He has. But on this team who hasn't.

I want more offense from him. But I also think he has something to do with his line being a consistent threat every night.

But out of all the problems on this team right now I don't think Couturier is near the top.
- J35Bacher

If he's counted on as the #2 center as well as one of your top defensive forwards, and hasn't been producing like a #2 center or playing well defensively, then yes, that is a major concern.

I am a really big fan of his. But right now, as a key player on this team, his play is hurting them big time. I'm not saying scratch him, because there's not a better option, but the fact is he's been a major concern so far.

He has. But on this team who hasn't.

I want more offense from him. But I also think he has something to do with his line being a consistent threat every night.

But out of all the problems on this team right now I don't think Couturier is near the top.
- J35Bacher

Im less concerned with him getting more points and more concerned with getting back the player where I felt good with him having the puck knowing a smart play was going to be made. I can handle a 2c that isnt dynamic but is reliable and consistent and to this point in the season he hasnt been either.

He has previously and I have no issues in letting him get back to that point.

And look at it this way. Everyone wants Couturier to have a more offensive mind set. That means more risks in pushing the puck or trying to make things happen. His line has probably been the most consistent threat every night.
- J35Bacher

It has been. They have dominated in possession and created a ton of chances without being able to finish a lot of them.

Couturier's issues with turnovers and getting out of his own end this season are definitely an issue; that goal against Pittsburgh being the most obvious example. But I think it's garbage to start banging the drum again about his supposed lack of offensive ability when it's based solely on points in a tiny sample size. The fact is that the whole team is not scoring enough at ES or on the second PP unit, again. That is why 16/22 are minus players, and the guys who play the most (and VdV) have the biggest negative numbers.

Can you guys stop using +/- to argue your points and use Corsi like civilized people?

Im less concerned with him getting more points and more concerned with getting back the player where I felt good with him having the puck knowing a smart play was going to be made. I can handle a 2c that isnt dynamic but is reliable and consistent and to this point in the season he hasnt been either.

He has previously and I have no issues in letting him get back to that point.
- opeth_pa

I think he'll be fine. I also think you will see more turnovers with him then past because he is trying to be more offensive in his mind set. Plays he didn't try to make previously he might try now. Especially with the wingers he has now.

Right now he isn't playing his best. But no one is. And right now I am more worried about our goaltending as that has been the most consistent problem this season.

Can you guys stop using +/- to argue your points and use Corsi like civilized people?
- YuenglingJagr

I like to use high danger scoring chance differential to evaluate players.

Can you guys stop using +/- to argue your points and use Corsi like civilized people?
- YuenglingJagr

Can't use anything that would expose the Couturier sucks offensively and defensively argument as a fraud.

If Couturier is the problem, just move Schenn to 2C and watch the wins roll in.

I think he'll be fine. I also think you will see more turnovers with him then past because he is trying to be more offensive in his mind set. Plays he didn't try to make previously he might try now. Especially with the wingers he has now.

Right now he isn't playing his best. But no one is. And right now I am more worried about our goaltending as that has been the most consistent problem this season.
- J35Bacher

100% agreed on the goaltending..If they werent struggling and the offense produced at the same level we would be well over 500.

He has. But on this team who hasn't.

I want more offense from him. But I also think he has something to do with his line being a consistent threat every night.

But out of all the problems on this team right now I don't think Couturier is near the top.
- J35Bacher

Konecny, Jake, Simmonds and to a lesser extent Gudas, Manning, Read and Provorov. That's about it. Everyone else could be playing better.

Konecny, Jake, Simmonds and to a lesser extent Gudas, Manning, Read and Provorov. That's about it. Everyone else could be playing better.
- BiggE

Nick Cousins, who has been a healthy scratch and who has played primarily with the likes of Read, Weise, VandeVelde, Raffl, Lyubimov, Gordon, and Bellemare, is very close to overtaking Couturier in points, despite him playing primarily with Voracek and Konecny and Couturier getting more than 8 minutes TOI/game. But it's not a major concern, all is well.

Konecny, Jake, Simmonds and to a lesser extent Gudas, Manning, Read and Provorov. That's about it. Everyone else could be playing better.
- BiggE

And each one of them has had their share of mistakes.

Right now it is tough because they either score a lot and lose due to bad goals or get good goaltending last night for 55 minutes and go 0-4 on the PP and give up a bad goal and lose in shootout.

It's like they can't put together consistent games from one game to the next. Once they start putting games together we will see everyone playing better.

Can't use anything that would expose the Couturier sucks offensively and defensively argument as a fraud.

- Feanor

And to this point in the season, go ahead and make the argument he hasnt sucked offensively and defensively.

Literally your only argument for this season so far is"producing the same as G at 5 vs 5"

And to this point in the season, go ahead and make the argument he hasnt sucked offensively and defensively.

Literally your only argument for this season so far is"producing the same as G at 5 vs 5"
- opeth_pa

He has yet to decapitate a teammate so far this year. That is a positive.

And to this point in the season, go ahead and make the argument he hasnt sucked offensively and defensively.

Literally your only argument for this season so far is"producing the same as G at 5 vs 5"
- opeth_pa

If he sucked at both ends he wouldn't be near the top in possesion without the benefit of easy zone starts like Streit.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ort=PCTRelTM&sortdir=DESC

Literally your only argument for saying he sucks is that he doesn't have a bunch of PP points, even though no one on the team who doesn't spend a lot of time on the top PP unit does.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/...Played,gte,&sort=ppPoints