Non-sense. Market rate is only determined when you are on the market. NO ONE offered either of them 11 million per year. And comparative analysis would similarly not suggest they were 11 million per year players. The only way a true market rate would have been determined is if they were allowed to become FAs and test that market. If this nonsensical line was floated it was undoubtedly fueled by the agents, or Hawks brass, both of who are skilled propagandists. NOT AGAINST these guys getting paid...the owners are making bank, the product on the ice should be rewarded, but please lets not make these guys saints for taking a hometown discount from a fictitious "market rate".
- kwolf68

While this is true, you can still make an educated guess based on current contracts/future cap numbers/team they play for/etc.

I would have to think the NHL AND the NHLPA have some sort of equation to work out what each player's worth is. Just like they measure stats, I'm sure there are accountants that measure worth.

IMO...Yes and no. A lot of those players were heavily criticized for issues similar to what we are seeing today. The Hawks had some terrible stretches at times with most of those players on the roster. Sure, having a stacked roster would be great, but it isn't sustainable with the cap.

I don't think it is a talent or personnel issue. This team right now is not playing to their potential at all. This seems like pain of just turnover on the roster and lack of chemistry and focus. Not saying there aren't growing pains of having rookies, but I don't think that is costing the hawks as much as the fact that they just have new faces who haven't all gotten on the same page.

This is where the coaching staff needs to do their job. Going over game video, working on things at practice and getting this team to play smarter on the ice.
- breadbag

I don't necessarily disagree but losing Saad has been the biggest factor in this team's decline, IMO. I think 15 has been a nice 2C...but the 200 foot production that Saad provided is nearly unmatched. I would have prioritized the 23 year old 30G/30A Power Left Wing over several others...namely Corey Crawford and Bryan Bickell.

Even as bad as the depth and chemistry have been, ultimately, if they had a PK % over 60% the Hawks would probably be undefeated. The Penalty Kill is an absolute joke and needs a fix ASAP.

Frolik, Saad, Sharp, Oduya, Ladd, Leddy, Shaw, Bickell, Byfuglien, Versteeg all played crucial roles in winning 3 Cups. Bowman did great work at re-tooling the roster after 2012, but he has absolutely crippled this team's ability to win another cup with atrocious returns via trade and overpriced contract extensions for 19, 88 and 7. Something's got to give, bc this team looks closer to a lottery team than a Stanley Cup Champion.
- EnzoD

These guys took a lot of heat early in their careers with Chicago, yet they turned out ok. Maybe we wait a little bit before we start to panic and declare the season over.

As I recall, the "market rate" for those two guys at the time was probably $11m or more so they thought they were giving the Blackhawks a home town discount. It didn't work out that way, of course. So what is their respective market rates right now? Kane might be at his or maybe $500k to $1.5m over paid. I doubt we'd be complaining if he was making $9m. But what about Toews? Playing with 3rd line talent, his productivity has declined (but it should be noted, that playing with a future HOF center, their respective productivity has been okay.) $9m would be palatable for him right now. $8m more so. So maybe those to players are being overpaid by $4m in today's market. Is trading the Captain the fastest path to another cup? I have a feeling the front office will try plans A, B, C, and D before trying that move. He's still the face of the franchise. He looks frustrated. I imagine he's feeling some pressure for that contract. I wish the NHL would allow for restructuring contracts or a soft cap or something to allow teams stuck in this situation to adjust after market forces change significantly.
- matt_ahrens

Would you trade Toews to the expansion team after their draft? Realistically best value you are going to get. Not easy to move a 10 mil contract plus they will be looking for a "star" to promote. You guys get cap relief, some really good younger(cheaper) players plus now have money to resign guys.

These guys took a lot of heat early in their careers with Chicago, yet they turned out ok. Maybe we wait a little bit before we start to panic and declare the season over.
- DarthKane

See above post.

Would you trade Toews to the expansion team after their draft? Realistically best value you are going to get. Not easy to move a 10 mil contract plus they will be looking for a "star" to promote. You guys get cap relief, some really good younger(cheaper) players plus now have money to resign guys.
- Gerk

From a marketing standpoint Hawks brass would never trade Toews. Q would fight to keep Toews 8 days a week, regardless of his salary. Toews would also not waive his full NMC to go rot on an expansion team

Just not even a plausible option to move Toews

This is a tough one. I really love Toews a lot. He plays the game right and I know he puts his heart and soul into everything. He has been a champion, and the captain of this team, but something is amiss with him and his new partners. That all said, if Saad was on his wing I have no doubt he'd be scoring 70+ points a year, NO DOUBT. Which is the rub...if Toews made say 7.5 million or 8 million a year (which still makes you a very wealthy man and is probably not far off of his true value), Brandon Saad would likely be on his wing. ...we saw how good Saad is without Toews...he was nearly unstoppable when the Hawks played CBJ last week. Saad is a legit power forward stud. Toews without Saad? A tougher road.
- kwolf68

Kane was at a ppg in '15 with poop linemates. He did get a bump from Panarin and Anisimov. But who knows how much of bump? 10pts?

Toews has only played with elite talent around him. Sharp Kane Hossa Saad.

Something is just off with him. He is a big game player. He shows up and helps this team win when it matters in the playoffs but with less talent the regular season matters to this team. They can't coast into a playoff spot and flip the switch. At 10.5 mil he has to be a constant force all 82.

What scares me is the argument Toews looked better once he had Hossa up with him. The line looked dangerous. Well Schmaltz and Hartman look good with Hossa on their line too. Put Hossa on any line they look better.

If Toews has lesser talent on his line then he needs to carry the puck and set up the offense. Not defer and go down low to grind. He is too one dimensional right now. He needs to and must diversify his offensive game. Not enough talent on this team for him to continue the status quo. We know he has the talent just not sure what is going on.

Would you trade Toews to the expansion team after their draft? Realistically best value you are going to get. Not easy to move a 10 mil contract plus they will be looking for a "star" to promote. You guys get cap relief, some really good younger(cheaper) players plus now have money to resign guys.
- Gerk

I can see Kane waiving to Las Vegas before Toews

Would you trade Toews to the expansion team after their draft? Realistically best value you are going to get. Not easy to move a 10 mil contract plus they will be looking for a "star" to promote. You guys get cap relief, some really good younger(cheaper) players plus now have money to resign guys.
- Gerk

Much rather shed $10 mil in cap space by shipping off Crawford and Kruger.

If only you guys knew how ridiculous you all sound right now...............
- The-O-G

thank you

I don't necessarily disagree but losing Saad has been the biggest factor in this team's decline, IMO. I think 15 has been a nice 2C...but the 200 foot production that Saad provided is nearly unmatched. I would have prioritized the 23 year old 30G/30A Power Left Wing over several others...namely Corey Crawford and Bryan Bickell.

Even as bad as the depth and chemistry have been, ultimately, if they had a PK % over 60% the Hawks would probably be undefeated. The Penalty Kill is an absolute joke and needs a fix ASAP.
- EnzoD

Swap out Anisimov for Saad and I highly doubt there is a significant positive influence on the team. They both are/were solid contributors to the team in their own way. Plus, with keep Saad the team would have to lose arguably their best player over the past few seasons - Crawford. So if it comes down to Saad or Anisimov & Crawford there really is no choice.

Wasn't Calgary picked by many insiders and such to have a breakout year? Not win everything but take that first step towards being a contender.
- L_B_R

That's what I thought, but then they started kinda crappy and everyone was talking about how bad they are.

My comment was just about the guy saying that good teams usually get lucky bounces, and it seemed funny to me because everyone was talking about Calgary being a bad team.

Much rather shed $10 mil in cap space by shipping off Crawford and Kruger.
- EnzoD

Anisimov does nothing for me at his price ship him off too. I'm convinced Moose could get 40 pts playing with 72 and 88 and win more draws.

Much rather shed $10 mil in cap space by shipping off Crawford and Kruger.
- EnzoD

How does cap space help you win a Cup? We know how Crawford and Kruger can help you win a Cup.

These guys took a lot of heat early in their careers with Chicago, yet they turned out ok. Maybe we wait a little bit before we start to panic and declare the season over.
- DarthKane

I think you are right. The team needs some time to get their act together. Some vets seem like they got off to a slow start. I think the world cup played into this. Q was gone for a long time to start camp. Toews/Hosssa didn't get much time with linemates to get ready for the real season. Campbell seems like he was slow out of the gate but it picking it up. The rookies are making some mistakes but likely learning.

It hasn't been pretty but the Hawks have tread water so far. Last night the Hawks were the better team 5v5 in terms of possession, shots, scoring chances, goals...but the PK...what more can be said. It isn't getting it done.

Good news.

Eric Lear ‏@BHTVeric 1m1 minute ago
Coach Q said Gustav Forsling is feeling better and will be reevaluated over the next couple days. #Blackhawks

Much rather shed $10 mil in cap space by shipping off Crawford and Kruger.
- EnzoD

Yeah but realistically who do you think you'll lose in expansion draft. AA, Darling, Krueger? I could easily see LV going big in on Bishop or MAF and spend top dollar on a top goalie and then go after a Darling type as a backup. Pretty sure you have to protect Crawford unless you move him pre draft due to his non movement clause.

I guess if you're only as good as your last few games, then maybe it's the Hawks that are one of the worst in the league
- JimmyBeem

no offense meant Mr. Beem. Calgary could very well end up a great team this season (and the Hawks could end up a bad one). I heard a couple places saying Calgary was a bad team right now, then the guy made a comment saying luck usually finds good teams (elliots save on panik last night). I tried to make a joke, and ended up having to explain it which means it was a bad joke.

Wasn't able to watch the game and couldn't tell from these tweets - was he able to play his stronger side last night? If not, maybe it is clicking now. I know they like to have the flexibility of playing people on either side as needed, but maybe with an old dog, new tricks are not as easy.

Blackhawks Breakdown ‏@HawksBreakdown 15h15 hours ago
Brian Campbell is so much better when he's able to take the puck up the left side, his strong side. Allows him to make forehand passes.

Blackhawks Breakdown ‏@HawksBreakdown 15h15 hours ago
Campbell is being forced to play the right side in CHI which is not optimal for him.
- pdx2ord

I think that was part of it was after Forsling went down Campbell was getting a TON of minutes and playing on the left side. He was night and day a different player last night and he seemed to thrive skating more minutes. I say keep him there, he was our best player last night period.

I don't necessarily disagree but losing Saad has been the biggest factor in this team's decline, IMO. I think 15 has been a nice 2C...but the 200 foot production that Saad provided is nearly unmatched. I would have prioritized the 23 year old 30G/30A Power Left Wing over several others...namely Corey Crawford and Bryan Bickell.

Even as bad as the depth and chemistry have been, ultimately, if they had a PK % over 60% the Hawks would probably be undefeated. The Penalty Kill is an absolute joke and needs a fix ASAP.
- EnzoD

Not good when you only kill 3 of 5 and raise your year to date PK success %

That's what I thought, but then they started kinda crappy and everyone was talking about how bad they are.

My comment was just about the guy saying that good teams usually get lucky bounces, and it seemed funny to me because everyone was talking about Calgary being a bad team.
- BlazinMike

I never understood the Flames getting so much preseason love. They improved in a few areas, but a huge reason they got a sniff of playoffs two years ago was their D playing out of their mind good and scoring a ton. IMO they are a team that has a couple more years of rebuilding to get to level people are expecting this season.

How does cap space help you win a Cup? We know how Crawford and Kruger can help you win a Cup.
- DarthKane

Interesting concept.

On the one hand you have two accomplished players that have very important roles on the team.

On the other hand, you have a number on a spreadsheet somewhere.

Ill take the former, I like the way you think DK

Swap out Anisimov for Saad and I highly doubt there is a significant positive influence on the team. They both are/were solid contributors to the team in their own way. Plus, with keep Saad the team would have to lose arguably their best player over the past few seasons - Crawford. So if it comes down to Saad or Anisimov & Crawford there really is no choice.
- DarthKane

The Hawks won all 3 Cups without a legitimate 2C bc unlike 19, 88 can carry a line by himself.

20-19-81
72-Anyone-Kane

That would provide 2 consistent scoring lines.

I'd take 20 over 16 and 50 because, like I've been saying for months, we have in-house replacements for 50+ 16 that can nearly replicate their production. There is nobody in the system, and only a few guys in the entire NHL, that can replicate the production and 200ft play that Brandon Saad brings to the ice. So it goes.

I have also stated repeatedly that despite being outplayed in every game this year, with an even mediocre PK they would probably be undefeated. Fix the PK and then we can really assess this team.

I think that was part of it was after Forsling went down Campbell was getting a TON of minutes and playing on the left side. He was night and day a different player last night and he seemed to thrive skating more minutes. I say keep him there, he was our best player last night period.
- Ballam

Why isn't he paired with Hammer? hammer can play his offside, correct?

2-7
51-4
42-57

How can anyone honestly believe the "market rate" for Toews and Kane was $11 per?

The numbers got out of control once McKenzie reported that they initially asked for $12 mil, which was ludicrous in its own right.

Several things need to be clarified at the time those were signed:
-Toews and Kane were only 2 time cup champions at the time (signed July 2014). Their deals didnt kick in until after they won the cup in 2015

-At the time they signed, the highest cap hit in the league was $9.5 mil by both Malkin and Ovechkin. Malkin had a cup on resume as well as art ross and hart and conn smythe trophies. Ovechkin has won the goal scoring title nearly every year he has been in the league and also has a hart trophy

-The only awards that Toews and Kane had at the time they signed were Conn Smythe, Selke ('13 Toews) and Calder (Kane '08)

-The canadian dollar was notoriously struggling and it was no mystery, but the projections of an exploding cap was grossly overstated as a lot of revenue came in at the time due to the new TV deals in both Canada and the US.

-Had Stan just waited 6 more months to negotiate those deals, he would have watched the canadian dollar crash and the flat cap projections were already coming out by about December

Now why they felt, and Stan agreed, to take DUAL highest cap hits in the league on the same team clearing the highest cap hit in the league by a cool million made any sense from a hockey standpoint, I have no clue. Malkin had a much more impressive resume at the time short 1 cup and they felt they were much more than him.

But lets also not forget the ONLY reason the Hawks won the cup again in 2015 was two fold:

1. Kane and Toews' mega deals didnt kick in yet, so they had the cap space to round out a better roster
2. Kane broke his collarbone and being able to LTIR him cleared space to add a critical third line center in Vermette

If those contracts were in effect that year, no chance they win the cup. You have to wonder if that last year of those previous deals for them in 2015 was truly the swan song because it has been nothing short of a disaster trying to cobble the roster back together from what it was in 2015 since those deals kicked in. Panarin was a nice find, but lets see how generous Bowman is with the extension he is working on right now