Mario had no equal... He was literally unstoppable... The Devils developed the left wing lock to slow him down ... Teams would literally break there system to shadow him...I would go as far as to say he was the most dominating player in team sports since the 80's with possible exception of Jordan ... To say he's not generational is absurd - Brianandr1
In the eighties the offsetting minors rules were changed because of Gretzky. Four on four meant a goal for the Oilers, so unfair to other teams that it was changed to five on five. The Oilers players would start scrums to try to get a four on four.
The scoring race would be over by January. Hockey pools didn't include Gretzky because the person who got him would automatically win.
If you're too young to have seen him in his prime I can understand having a differing opinion. I can't relate to the Rocket either because I didn't see him play. But I did see Orr, Gretzky and Mario in their primes and they called him the Great One for a reason. Plus he was first class all the way.
Gretz was amazing, no question...Mario was better!!! My point is teams literally changed there systems to deal with him,the left wing lock, shadowing, the nhl allowed goalies to use bigger pads and of course the"clutching, holding and grabbing that led him to retire the 1st time... Mario was also 6"5 in a league of 5 10 players ... What is the average size of a player now compared to 1983.... If all of these reasons and his total domination don't count as generational then we should just toss the term out the window - Brianandr1
Yes, please, absolutely. That's my whole point. The term doesn't fit.
In the eighties the offsetting minors rules were changed because of Gretzky. Four on four meant a goal for the Oilers, so unfair to other teams that it was changed to five on five. The Oilers players would start scrums to try to get a four on four.
The scoring race would be over by January. Hockey pools didn't include Gretzky because the person who got him would automatically win.
If you're too young to have seen him in his prime I can understand having a differing opinion. I can't relate to the Rocket either because I didn't see him play. But I did see Orr, Gretzky and Mario in their primes and they called him the Great One for a reason. Plus he was first class all the way. - shack67
Dude I'm in my 40's I saw him in his prime, Mario was better! putting up more points per game on a lesser team with a major back issue and cancer... 93 160 points in 60 games after missing 23 games to cancer ... Unreal ... Uncomparable!!!!
Mario was the best hockey player ever. - Blackstrom2
Gretzky: eight consecutive Hart trophies, four 200 point seasons, 14 consecutive 100 point seasons, and still holds 60 scoring records. Not to mention 4 cups and ten Art Ross trophies.
Edit
50 goals in 39 games
Fastest to 500 goals
Fastest to 1000 points
Most short handed goals
Gretzky: eight consecutive Hart trophies, four 200 point seasons, 14 consecutive 100 point seasons, and still holds 60 scoring records. Not to mention 4 cups and ten Art Ross trophies.
Edit
50 goals in 39 games
Fastest to 500 goals
Fastest to 1000 points
Most short handed goals - shack67
It's because Gretzky went about it in such a nonchalant way. Also the late 70's early 80's goaltending was a joke, you could easily score with a snap shot from 40'(~12m for you Canadian bastards) out on the wing on the rush. Lemieux constantly had guys hanging off of him and every other goal he scored he ran the goalie.
Gretzky had the better brains, Lemieux had the better everything else.
Gretzky: eight consecutive Hart trophies, four 200 point seasons, 14 consecutive 100 point seasons, and still holds 60 scoring records. Not to mention 4 cups and ten Art Ross trophies.
Edit
50 goals in 39 games
Fastest to 500 goals
Fastest to 1000 points
Most short handed goals - shack67
-The 87-88 Mario won the Art Ross and Should have won the hart.
-88-89 199 pts in 76 games while playing the entire season with a herniated disc and rob brown as his winger... 2nd greatest season ever after his 93 160 pts in 60 games!!!! missing 22 for cancer!!!! (both of these are more impressive then any season Gretz ever had when you consider teammates and injury
-between 88-93 (when MArio won 2 of his harts) he sometimes only played on the power play and had to have the trainer lace his skates... he also often did not practice with the team
-89-90 59 games 125 points (herniated disc) (his prime)
-90-91 only played 26 games (herniated disc)(his prime)
-He won three harts, healthy no injuries he might have won 7-10
--690 goals in 900 games!!!! Missing large chunks of his prime to injury!!!
--Retired at 31 and missed 3 1/2 seasons at the tail end of his prime!!!!!!
-2000 he came out of retirement and only scored 35g /76 pts in 43 games!!!!
-Had Mario been healthy he would have scored more goals and possibly more points!
Gretz has all the records, but Mario was the better player!!! and I don't think its close when you really think about the above and how dominating Mario was when on the ice!
-The 87-88 Mario won the Art Ross and Should have won the hart.
-88-89 199 pts in 76 games while playing the entire season with a herniated disc and rob brown as his winger... 2nd greatest season ever after his 93 160 pts in 60 games!!!! missing 22 for cancer!!!! (both of these are more impressive then any season Gretz ever had when you consider teammates and injury
-between 88-93 (when MArio won 2 of his harts) he sometimes only played on the power play and had to have the trainer lace his skates... he also often did not practice with the team
-89-90 59 games 125 points (herniated disc) (his prime)
-90-91 only played 26 games (herniated disc)(his prime)
-He won three harts, healthy no injuries he might have won 7-10
--690 goals in 900 games!!!! Missing large chunks of his prime to injury!!!
--Retired at 31 and missed 3 1/2 seasons at the tail end of his prime!!!!!!
-2000 he came out of retirement and only scored 35g /76 pts in 43 games!!!!
-Had Mario been healthy he would have scored more goals and possibly more points!
Gretz has all the records, but Mario was the better player!!! and I don't think its close when you really think about the above and how dominating Mario was when on the ice! - Brianandr1
Mario was one of the games greats. But your whole post was woulda, coulda, shoulda
Mario was one of the games greats. But your whole post was woulda, coulda, shoulda - shack67
Excuse me but 160 pts in 60 games, missing 22 to cancer is fact!
-199 pts in 76 games with rob brown as his winger is a fact
-missing most of 6 years of his prime to injury and retirement is a fact
- playing 4 seasons with a herniated disc and needing the trainers to lace him up is a fact.
Please address these issues!!!!!!!!
(Yes projecting he would have had more points is "would ve, could ve, should ev").. I admit this, but speculating that he would have scored 160 more goals in 6 years of his prime is not a stretch... that's 25 per season for a guy that averaged 50-60 in his prime... but you are right about that part of the post
Gretzky: eight consecutive Hart trophies, four 200 point seasons, 14 consecutive 100 point seasons, and still holds 60 scoring records. Not to mention 4 cups and ten Art Ross trophies.
Edit
50 goals in 39 games
Fastest to 500 goals
Fastest to 1000 points
Most short handed goals - shack67
Excuse me but 160 pts in 60 games, missing 22 to cancer is fact!
-199 pts in 76 games with rob brown as his winger is a fact
-missing most of 6 years of his prime to injury and retirement is a fact
- playing 4 seasons with a herniated disc and needing the trainers to lace him up is a fact.
Please address these issues!!!!!!!!
(Yes projecting he would have had more points is "would ve, could ve, should ev").. I admit this, but speculating that he would have scored 160 more goals in 6 years of his prime is not a stretch... that's 25 per season for a guy that averaged 50-60 in his prime... but you are right about that part of the post - Brianandr1
Gretzky, 74 games played, 87 goals 205 points
Don't play the numbers game, Gretzky wins every time. You talk like Mario was never healthy, not true.
Gretzky, 74 games played, 87 goals 205 points
Don't play the numbers game, Gretzky wins every time. You talk like Mario was never healthy, not true. - shack67
Mario 76 Games 87 goals with rob brown as the second best player on the team, playing with a herniated disc>>>>>>>>Gretz 74 games 87 goals on arguably the best offensive team ever surrounded by hall of famers, including a 600 goal scorer on his line!!!!
Its not close... You continue to not address the facts I listed above.
And yes when he was healthy he was as dominant as any player ever... He never had a prime healthy!
Mario 76 Games 87 goals with rob brown as the second best player on the team, playing with a herniated disc>>>>>>>>Gretz 74 games 87 goals on arguably the best offensive team ever surrounded by hall of famers, including a 600 goal scorer on his line!!!!
Its not close... You continue to not address the facts I listed above.
And yes when he was healthy he was as dominant as any player ever... He never had a prime healthy! - Brianandr1
You want me to address excuses...injuries, quality of teammates and whatnot. We should bring Lindros into it, why not? Gretzky had Semenko on his line a lot so according to your logic he would have scored 100 goals if not for that. Mario also had Jagr in his prime.
I've really enjoyed this debate. Thanks for keeping it respectful, a lot of posters have no tolerance for old guys. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
You want me to address excuses...injuries, quality of teammates and whatnot. We should bring Lindros into it, why not? Gretzky had Semenko on his line a lot so according to your logic he would have scored 100 goals if not for that. Mario also had Jagr in his prime.
I've really enjoyed this debate. Thanks for keeping it respectful, a lot of posters have no tolerance for old guys. We'll just have to agree to disagree. - shack67
You want me to address excuses...injuries, quality of teammates and whatnot. We should bring Lindros into it, why not? Gretzky had Semenko on his line a lot so according to your logic he would have scored 100 goals if not for that. Mario also had Jagr in his prime.
I've really enjoyed this debate. Thanks for keeping it respectful, a lot of posters have no tolerance for old guys. We'll just have to agree to disagree. - shack67
I was waiting for that. I almost did just to be an ass. I think he'd certainly be up there, but the era he played he just wouldn't have been able to put up the numbers. Just like Pavel Bure who rarely gets any love. He did everything but play defense, could beat you with his speed, his hands, his shot. I remember him ripping a shot from just inside the blueline on Hasek when he played with the Rangers and Hasek saw it the whole way, but it just blew by him. Very much like the goal at 1:55.
I see McDavid and he reminds me very much of Bure, maybe not the shot yet, but the deceptive speed and the hands at that speed.
I was waiting for that. I almost did just to be an ass. I think he'd certainly be up there, but the era he played he just wouldn't have been able to put up the numbers. Just like Pavel Bure who rarely gets any love. He did everything but play defense, could beat you with his speed, his hands, his shot. I remember him ripping a shot from just inside the blueline on Hasek when he played with the Rangers and Hasek saw it the whole way, but it just blew by him. Very much like the goal at 1:55.
I see McDavid and he reminds me very much of Bure, maybe not the shot yet, but the deceptive speed and the hands at that speed. - Wetbandit1
What happened to Lindros is a shame. Those hits to the head were legal then. As fans we were robbed of watching a one of a kind talent. Bure was amazing. I thought Yak was going to be like him, shows what I know. Edit just watched the video, fantastic. I forgot just how good Bure was. McDavids backhand forehand move looks a lot like Pavel's.
What happened to Lindros is a shame. Those hits to the head were legal then. As fans we were robbed of watching a one of a kind talent. Bure was amazing. I thought Yak was going to be like him, shows what I know. Edit just watched the video, fantastic. I forgot just how good Bure was. McDavids backhand forehand move looks a lot like Pavel's. - shack67
I think Bure's reach might be a bit better, or more likely the goalies are just bigger so they can get across faster now. I don't think we'll ever see a shot like that again though. He got it uncorked so fast, and it was so hard, and so accurate.
It's because Gretzky went about it in such a nonchalant way. Also the late 70's early 80's goaltending was a joke, you could easily score with a snap shot from 40'(~12m for you Canadian bastards) out on the wing on the rush. Lemieux constantly had guys hanging off of him and every other goal he scored he ran the goalie.
Gretzky had the better brains, Lemieux had the better everything else. - Wetbandit1
You can't use bad goaltending as an excuse because they stood out in spite of all other players shooting on the same goalies.
I think for a lot of sports fans, they overrate championships and awards and longevity. Yes, those things are all important, but when we're discussing best player I think it's a different topic than best career.
Take Toews and Thornton - both are elite defensively and Thornton scores more and is probably the better player by a pretty wide margin - but I bet most people would rank Toews as better because of the 3 x Cups.
For me, I'd put Roy right below Gretz on your list. He was an incredible goalie. Mario was the best player I've ever seen. He had no equals before or since. If he had the gift of good health, he'd own all the records.
You want me to address excuses...injuries, quality of teammates and whatnot. We should bring Lindros into it, why not? Gretzky had Semenko on his line a lot so according to your logic he would have scored 100 goals if not for that. Mario also had Jagr in his prime.
I've really enjoyed this debate. Thanks for keeping it respectful, a lot of posters have no tolerance for old guys. We'll just have to agree to disagree. - shack67
Imagine Mario didn't smoke cigarettes and believed in practice? It's pretty much like arguing Towns van Zandt is better than Bob Dylan though - you can make some good points but in the end, Wayne Gretzky is (frank)ing Wayne Gretzky.
Imagine Mario didn't smoke cigarettes and believed in practice? It's pretty much like arguing Towns van Zandt is better than Bob Dylan though - you can make some good points but in the end, Wayne Gretzky is (frank)ing Wayne Gretzky. - James_Tanner
It really comes down to how old you are. Whoever was in their prime when you were in the 12 to 20 age bracket is probably who you think is the best. Jim when you said Sundin should have been #1 ahead of Keon all us old guys had a good laugh. But we're too polite to mock you for it. Cheers
You can't use bad goaltending as an excuse because they stood out in spite of all other players shooting on the same goalies. - James_Tanner
You're absolutely right, I'm saying they piled the goals on because, they were second to none, and also the talent in the league in that era was dogpoop. Guys would smoke on the bench if they could, and I'm sure guys went to the locker room for "repairs" just so they could. Last year the average goals per game was 2.71, but the average goals per game was way higher than it was even in 05-06(the peak of the last 30 years was 3.08) in the late 70's early 80's it was up around 4 that's an extra goal per game for every team. The average GAA was 3.95. Can you imagine if an "average" goalie posted those numbers today? Well he wouldn't be fit for the ECHL. The Penguins allowed 136 more goals than they scored in 83-84, the year of the original tank. They allowed 394 goals that year. The entire Campbell conference allowed at least 311 goals up to the Leafs who allowed 387. Goalies were really bad then.
