I'm not debating Mario vs. Gretz... I'm just pointing out that Mario also changed the way the game is played... size and the left wing lock (developed by the devils to slow down Mario btw).... and WAIT!!! So Mcdavid has changed the way the game is played but Crosby hasn't? Please explain how that is?
- Brianandr1

Didn't say McDavid has, said I think he will. Try to keep up. Crosby is great but I think McDavid is going to be so much better. His desire and work ethic matches Sid and he's faster and shoots harder and has generational skill.

Crosby is the captain and a key part of a team that just won a cup based on speed, Mcdavid has played 50 games... if speed is going to redefine the NHL in the future how is Crosby not at the top of the list if speed is the factor we re discussing?
- Brianandr1

gonna be honest with you. I was gonna write about that pens won with speed in the post but forgot cuz I am watching the oilers game

Didn't say McDavid has, said I think he will. Try to keep up. Crosby is great but I think McDavid is going to be so much better. His desire and work ethic matches Sid and he's faster and shoots harder and has generational skill.
- shack67

his shot is not better than sid, his passing is on par with sid, he is for sure more skilled, he has faster skating but sid has better control in his skating and is much stronger with the puck. (and has been ever since he came into the league). mcdavids speed and his control with the puck at high speed is what makes mcdavid so amazing and good.

Didn't say McDavid has, said I think he will. Try to keep up. Crosby is great but I think McDavid is going to be so much better. His desire and work ethic matches Sid and he's faster and shoots harder and has generational skill.
- shack67

I read your post and thought you said the same thing. And didn't see in the post where you even mentioned Cindy , but was somehow interpreted that by saying McDavid may change the game, but Crosby didn't.

Chris Kunitz is was third (Haglein, Hornqvist) on the Pens in Corsi and one of the best in the league (according to that stat)... I like Kunitz, he a good player... but how can this stat have any meaning on a team with Crosby, Malkin, Letang et????
Drew Doughty says advanced stats are "s*%t"..

I don't doubt that they are one indictor of a good player, however it seams the advocates of this method of evaluating players have a terrible tendency to site the stats when it makes their argument and ignore them with its inconvenient... that's called "bad science" in the real world...
- Brianandr1

I doubt Drew Doughty finished high school. If this was 2010 I might have the patience to go through this with you, but if you're interested just google advanced stats for beginners and there will be tons and tons of articles that will overcome your objections.

Unless you are obstinate and not interested in learning.

It actually proves that they did due to the fact you can in no way prove otherwise, and you are merely speculating
- leonkennedy

You're either trolling or you aren't worthy of having an argument with me. Either way, you are being ridiculous and I'm just not interested.

i get that this is a blog about the Leafs/Jays/Coyotes but given your affinity for the Oilers, no love for McDavid?

I doubt Drew Doughty finished high school. If this was 2010 I might have the patience to go through this with you, but if you're interested just google advanced stats for beginners and there will be tons and tons of articles that will overcome your objections.

Unless you are obstinate and not interested in learning.
- James_Tanner

Well this is just a tad obnoxious

i get that this is a blog about the Leafs/Jays/Coyotes but given your affinity for the Oilers, no love for McDavid?
- DoubleDown

tanner has alot of love for McDavid

his shot is not better than sid, his passing is on par with sid, he is for sure more skilled, he has faster skating but sid has better control in his skating and is much stronger with the puck. (and has been ever since he came into the league). mcdavids speed and his control with the puck at high speed is what makes mcdavid so amazing and good.
- martox

Don't forget Sid had one of the weakest shots in the league as a rookie. Through hard work he turned his weaknesses into strengths and I think McDavid has the same drive. If McDavid works as hard on his as Sid has I think the sky's the limit. I love Sid and I hope he plays ten more years

You're either trolling or you aren't worthy of having an argument with me. Either way, you are being ridiculous and I'm just not interested.
- James_Tanner

Of course you aren't interested. I pointed out that you can in no way prove something you are stating as fact. Also this statement is filled with delicious irony, considering how much time you spend going through the comments section of your blogs and arguing with people in such an epic quest for attention.

Subban plays for Nashville and honestly your a Pens fan: Is their any d man in the league you would take over a healthy Kris Letang for 2016-7?
- Brianandr1

Dude, you are such a homer it's unbelievable

I doubt Drew Doughty finished high school. If this was 2010 I might have the patience to go through this with you, but if you're interested just google advanced stats for beginners and there will be tons and tons of articles that will overcome your objections.

Unless you are obstinate and not interested in learning.
- James_Tanner

I ve looked at the data and have reached a different conclusion then you have! I don't have faith in "dataism" as you do! Some of hockey (or any sport) is still an art... last I checked that's not quantifiable as you propose... I don't doubt that advanced stats are a useful tool! I don't argue that advanced stats don't get it right more then they get it wrong... I argue that its an inexact science and therefore its conclusions are highly suspect at times....as you, Ryan Wilson and others ignore its conclusions when they don't fit... that makes them highly suspect from the point of view of "Good science"

Well this is just a tad obnoxious
- HamiltonHawk

Seems like a usual response from Tanner from someone questioning his deeply held beleifs.

A real statistician would be constantly looking for flaws in the advanced stats so they could find ways to improve hockey statistics. They compare their statistical results to other information (expert opinions, their own observations, etc) and when there is a discrepancy they look further to find out why. Maybe there is a problem in their stat collection process, maybe they made a computational error, or maybe the statistics are missing a vital piece of the puzzle and they can find a way to track that too. (sometimes the stats simply show them something everyone was missing, but this is not always the case) It's a work in progress.

Fanboys of stats like Tanner simply refuse to accept that hockey statistics aren't perfect. When reality is different from their stats, they decide reality must be wrong and bury their head in the sand. That or turn to things like, "look it up on google - others agree with me so I must be right."

his shot is not better than sid, his passing is on par with sid, he is for sure more skilled, he has faster skating but sid has better control in his skating and is much stronger with the puck. (and has been ever since he came into the league). mcdavids speed and his control with the puck at high speed is what makes mcdavid so amazing and good.
- martox

Good assessment. Sid also was always more determined than everyone around him.

Dude, you are such a homer it's unbelievable
- westcoastleaf

I'm a Pens fans! How do I have a rooting interest in P.K. Subban? As for Letang... go back and watch the playoofs and then explain how Muzzin, Bouwmeister, Pieteragelo (who had terrible season last year) are more deserving... I might be a homer or I might not, but I back what I say with evidence... which last I checked is not being challenged... Letang was number 2 last season in Points per game (for d men) and 3rd overall among d men... He was also top 5 in the Norris race... Subban was 4!!!

Of course you aren't interested. I pointed out that you can in no way prove something you are stating as fact. Also this statement is filled with delicious irony, considering how much time you spend going through the comments section of your blogs and arguing with people in such an epic quest for attention.
- leonkennedy

I am happy to argue or discuss anything with almost anyone. But say someone made a ridiculous comment, didn't realize that what they said was preposterous and kept on arguing it, I wouldn't want to hurt that person's feelings, so I would just assume they're trolling. And, if they were serious, I wouldn't know what to say (or how to say it politely at least) so I'd ignore them, and, if pressed, write a circular paragraph in the most condescending language possible.

In my opinion there have been two generational players, Orr and Gretzky and now it looks like McDavid will be number three. I'm a big Crosby fan but those other guys were on another level and I think McDavid will be too. Orr and Gretzky had their haters and I'm sure McDavid will too. Instead we should enjoy every minute of watching him play.
- shack67

Agreed Generational is a term to often used. Generational talent is like once every 80 years like Orr or Gretzky. Lemieux was close but no cigar. If he played more maybe. Though he didn’t.

McDavid is unquestionably a talented young player, but anointing him the best in the league after half a season and a few games into the next is letting our emotions get the better of us.

Give McDavid a few full seasons in the league to show what he can do before we call him the best in the world. Lets see him accomplish something (anything really) before we jump the gun and start throwing around labels like this.

Agreed Generational is a term to often used. Generational talent is like once every 80 years like Orr or Gretzky. Lemieux was close but no cigar. If he played more maybe. Though he didn’t.
- al3535

Lemieux is the best hockey player of all-time. The Best.

Lemieux is the best hockey player of all-time. The Best.
- James_Tanner

I agree... I respect those that say Gretz, Howe or Orr... but to say Mario is not a generational player or that he did nt change the game is absurd. As a player he reminded me of Lawrence Taylor... LT was the only defensive player I ve ever watched in whichTeams literally schemed to run their offense around him... I understand its a different sport but Mario dominated the same way offensively in hockey, be it the trap, shadowing et... If they held him to a point or two it was a good night in his prime.

I am happy to argue or discuss anything with almost anyone. But say someone made a ridiculous comment, didn't realize that what they said was preposterous and kept on arguing it, I wouldn't want to hurt that person's feelings, so I would just assume they're trolling. And, if they were serious, I wouldn't know what to say (or how to say it politely at least) so I'd ignore them, and, if pressed, write a circular paragraph in the most condescending language possible.
- James_Tanner

Agreed. I have been doing the same thing. Only keeping the responses shorter than a paragraph since my time is more valuable.
I can however tell you that this experience is similar to the ones I have with those people who come to my door trying to sell me a concept based on the speculation that some fictional character exists simply because they say he does.

Seems like a usual response from Tanner from someone questioning his deeply held beleifs.

A real statistician would be constantly looking for flaws in the advanced stats so they could find ways to improve hockey statistics. They compare their statistical results to other information (expert opinions, their own observations, etc) and when there is a discrepancy they look further to find out why. Maybe there is a problem in their stat collection process, maybe they made a computational error, or maybe the statistics are missing a vital piece of the puzzle and they can find a way to track that too. (sometimes the stats simply show them something everyone was missing, but this is not always the case) It's a work in progress.

Fanboys of stats like Tanner simply refuse to accept that hockey statistics aren't perfect. When reality is different from their stats, they decide reality must be wrong and bury their head in the sand. That or turn to things like, "look it up on google - others agree with me so I must be right."
- Thecakeisalie

Agreed Generational is a term to often used. Generational talent is like once every 80 years like Orr or Gretzky. Lemieux was close but no cigar. If he played more maybe. Though he didn’t.
- al3535

Actually generational refers to people born around the same time, and applies to the typical age at which people tend to produce offspring. So would be every 20-30 years, not 80.

Actually generational refers to people born around the same time, and applies to the typical age at which people tend to produce offspring. So would be every 20-30 years, not 80.
- leonkennedy

Generational player seems to be such a debatable concept. It all depends on a person's definition of a "generational player" and there seems to be many interpretations. For example there is the qualification on whether there can be multiple generational players at the same time, or whether they are simply heads and shoulders above other players or if you think they need to somehow redefine the game, etc.

My only real qualification for a generational player is that they need to be far above the majority of the league. I would rate most of the players discussed earlier as generational talent: Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux, Crosby (Malkin and Ovi are questionable). Then you need to consider if any goalies deserve such an appellation.