Ha Rick, knowing Stan he probably wouldn't get more than a few late round picks and have to retain salary.
Yes, he did hoist a trophy. My point I guess missed though was is he now the highest paid shut-down guy in the NHL? It's great that he is capable of that but last I looked, you don't pay a guy $10.4M for that -- maybe $3M if you're Swedish and get rag-dolled a lot.
Honestly, I expect more out of the guy and I just am not seeing it. His salary (and of course Kane's) are what keeps the club from being able to add any legit NHL'ers on wing. It's why I said he needs to look in the mirror. - savvyone-1
Bergeron is probably the closest comparable there. And he's getting 8.75 per I think.
Though #slowstarter
Anyway, I think by the All Star break you'll have a better idea of what he is or isn't in terms of an individual force and his ability to carry a line or whatever. At this point though, I'd swap Kane and Hossa until someone starts denting twine consistently.
This team will struggle to make the playoffs, and yesterday (even though it's early) hasn't changed my mind. it was going to happen sooner or later. All successful teams eventually go through this. It's been a great run, but they're no better than 4th in their division, and have to deal with Minny and possibly the Jets overtaking them.
I wonder how much this will affect their resigning Panarin. Is he willing to take the money and work to get this team better, or will he seek greener pastures, maybe St Louis when he's a FA.
Ebony,
See my rant on page 2.
As to the 2nd bolded point above, IDK either -- but he sure in hell is paid like one of THE top 3, top 5, top 10 players in the NHL. Really don't know that's the case, certainly not what we saw last year and this year is only a 1 game sample.
But I see nothing that tells me he's done anything in the off-season to make 2016-17 that much better for him. Notoriously slow starter regardless. And this year looks like it may be no exception.
So let's see . . . whines about the revolving door on wing, gets paid like a top player, cannot seem to make other players around him better. Me thinks he really needs to look in the mirror a little more often. Past performance is no indication of future results. Just like stocks and stock funds. - savvyone-1
I'm not a what have you done for me lately guy. I think past performance should engender a loyalty and Toews is as much, if not more, responsible for the Hawks resurgence as anyone, so I have no problem with his salary because he earned it (at least from the perspective of the perception at the time that the cap would continue to rise). But, I am a just play and keep your mouth shut
guy and therein lies my gripe with Toews over the past 2-3 seasons. It makes me think that he think he deserves preferential treatment and he whines when he doesn't get it. A real leader doesn't act like a prima donna and I hope Toews figures that out soon.
Ha Rick, knowing Stan he probably wouldn't get more than a few late round picks and have to retain salary.
Yes, he did hoist a trophy. My point I guess missed though was is he now the highest paid shut-down guy in the NHL? It's great that he is capable of that but last I looked, you don't pay a guy $10.4M for that -- maybe $3M if you're Swedish and get rag-dolled a lot.
Honestly, I expect more out of the guy and I just am not seeing it. His salary (and of course Kane's) are what keeps the club from being able to add any legit NHL'ers on wing. It's why I said he needs to look in the mirror. - savvyone-1
This made me chuckle. Agree about Toews. Babcock said a while back Toews was the best player bc he made everyone around him better. I don't see him doing that the last couple of years. His offensive game is predictable and simple (in a bad way). He isn't paid to be a shutdown guy. He needs to drive his lines scoring. The last two years he hasn't. It's becoming apparent he needs elite wings around him. I also don't think he's any better than Bergeron or Kopitar. Might even get put him third on the two way center list. Don't think you can compare him to Crosby either. Crosby drags around bums and still dominates and his two way game is much better.
I was worried about Kane living up to his contract. It's Toews I worry about now. Kane shows up and is dangerous every game. When was the last time Toews undressed someone on the rush with a deke? Everyone said a long offseason would do him wonders. He looks the same as last year. This isn't Toews bashing. He needs to live Up to his contract. You don't pay guys for what they did in theast. You pay them for what they will do going forward. If you pay for past performance you can put a fork in it.
I only ask as i think there are some comparables there...and I sort of see that as Schmaltz's potential based on what i saw in college and have seen in a pro setting so far.
This made me chuckle. Agree about Toews. Babcock said a while back Toews was the best player bc he made everyone around him better. I don't see him doing that the last couple of years. His offensive game is predictable and simple (in a bad way). He isn't paid to be a shutdown guy. He needs to drive his lines scoring. The last two years he hasn't. It's becoming apparent he needs elite wings around him. I also don't think he's any better than Bergeron or Kopitar. Might even get put him third on the two way center list. Don't think you can compare him to Crosby either. Crosby drags around bums and still dominates and his two way game is much better.
I was worried about Kane living up to his contract. It's Toews I worry about now. Kane shows up and is dangerous every game. When was the last time Toews undressed someone on the rush with a deke? Everyone said a long offseason would do him wonders. He looks the same as last year. This isn't Toews bashing. He needs to live Up to his contract. You don't pay guys for what they did in theast. You pay them for what they will do going forward. If you pay for past performance you can put a fork in it. - bhawks2241
I think Toews and Hossa played hurt last year. They don't absolutely need Saad in order to produce, but they do need to be healthy.
Let's slow down on the Toews hate train real quick. He's got Richard Panik as a LW and is deployed as a shutdown guy. In a game the Hawks were BADLY out shot 33-19, Toews was a +6 Corsi (11 shots for, 5 against). Toews was on the ice for more than half the shots for and only 5 of 33 against, including some PK time. That is elite level shutdown play. - JRoenick97
Apparently you didn't comprehend my post. I don't hate Toews and I took no issue with his play, per se. My post was about the attitude he displayed after he was (rightly) called for a penalty. My problem with Toews is that he has demonstrated a star attitude like he should be allowed to get away with penalties that the rank and file players would get called for. The crux of the problem, as I see it, is that a leader leads by example and when a leader gets called for a penalty he accepts his punishment without whining about it and making himself look like a prima donna expecting preferential treatment.
As much as it pleases me to hear a worrying tone from your fanbase, I don't think you have any reason to be all doom and gloom already. From my view, the Blues were awful until around February last season. There's plenty of time to build chemistry and teach the youngsters. - RobShouts
Apparently you didn't comprehend my post. I don't hate Toews and I took no issue with his play, per se. My post was about the attitude he displayed after he was (rightly) called for a penalty. My problem with Toews is that he has demonstrated a star attitude like he should be allowed to get away with penalties that the rank and file players would get called for. The crux of the problem, as I see it, is that a leader leads by example and when a leader gets called for a penalty he accepts his punishment without whining about it and making himself look like a prima donna expecting preferential treatment. - EbonyRaptor
I was replying to you calling him a good, but no longer great player. I think he had a legitimate beef with Parayko not getting an embellishment call on that one.
Guys, the Toews line wasn't nearly as bad last night as you are making it out to be.
Toews/Hossa/Panik were more effective driving possession than Panarin/AA/Kane and actually managed to get a PP goal. At least Toews can win faceoffs like a beast, while AA struggles. That line also got less Ozone starts than Panarin/AA/Kane and Toews/Hossa/Panik can actually play D. People need to start accepting that PAK line is bad at defending.
Panik isn't a great fit, but the #1 or #2 line, whatever you want to call it with PAK, needs to be better or needs to change.
Reply below was posted just as JJ put up his new blog. Regarding the bolded:
Toews looks physically sick to me. Anyone see any of his recent interview clips? Face looks drawn (sallow). He's either lost weight on purpose (puzzling) or there's something else going on.
He appears to be no stronger, no faster than last year. There is no appreciable difference in shot strength or stickhandling or faceoffs. In fact, he seemed to lose a lot of the important draws (I lost count of the PP draws in Blues zone that were lost and subsequently cleared).
- savvyone-1
Noticed that, too, although it seemed from the reports that he did well at the WCH, and was finely tuned physically.
Since last year, both he and Keith (who pulled in Toews and Oduya and Ladd) are shilling for and apparently big disciples of Onnit, which professes "total human optimization," "suppressing your ego," "natural" psychedelics and PEDs (incl pot as a PED), etc. etc. They sell cross-fit training and a whole line of supplements. You could see them prominently displayed in many of Toews postings this summer.
Looking at their site and listening to their founder bloviate and pontificate, it always brings to mind for me a modern snake-oil salesmen / cult-of-personality.
Of course, both Toews and Keith on a bad day are more fit and healthy than I have ever been or will ever be. But, given what has been visible with both of them in the past couple of seasons, I'm definitely side-eyeing their involvement with this company and can't help wondering if it has anything at all to do with their mental engagement or physical prep for the game. Maybe it's helpful, maybe it's harmful, but both of them have just seemed "off" to me when compared to, say, 2013 and 2014, for example, in the aggression department for Toews.
I think there will come a point this year where the Hawks have to decide which high priced vet they're going to have to move in order to retool to be able to contend next season. - hawks1921
Would to ship off Seabrook?
Massive contract, but could probably get you some good pieces...
You're an Ontario guy, right? Did you watch that Leafs game? Matthews is a BIG boy at 19 and I love his attitude and demeanor. 4 goals and he only celebrated on the first one. Like Brett Hull says, act like you've been there before. The steal and score on goal 3 (?) was a thing of beauty. Also, Lucic fighting Engelland for a clean hit...that should be interesting up in Oil Country. McDavid is a skinny guy and he is going to get bullied all season. - EnzoD
Yes, I watched most of 3 games and glanced at the Kings-Sharks game. Quick injured, we can now dump Crawford there for cap space. But seriously, I will give you what I think about Matthews and McDavid.
Mitch Marner was probably the best player on the ice for the Leafs most of the game but Matthews scored all the goals. Babcock is going to turn that kid into a big, talented, elegant forward scoring machine like the league hasn't seen in a very long time. He has size and skill and superb hockey smarts. I don't know how nasty he is, but eventually he will be tested physically by the likes of Shea Weber, Chara, Radko Gudas, Bortuzzo, Orpik etc and we"ll see how he handles it. I expect he will pass the test fairly easily. Marner is a Kane like talent, but very small. He needs protection but may be great also.
McDavid, not worried about being bullied but I would worry about him getting injured. Right now he is inexperienced wreckless and puts himself in very vulnerable positions at times and a cheap shot artist could do him big damage. But he is a superstar in the making with size and speed to burn and I could see him winning the scoring title this year. Lucic has a job to make sure a goof like Leo Komarov or Matt Cooke type doesn't (frank) with him physically like players have done with Crosby in the past.
I think there will come a point this year where the Hawks have to decide which high priced vet they're going to have to move in order to retool to be able to contend next season. - hawks1921
Guys, the Toews line wasn't nearly as bad last night as you are making it out to be.
Toews/Hossa/Panik were more effective driving possession than Panarin/AA/Kane and actually managed to get a PP goal. At least Toews can win faceoffs like a beast, while AA struggles. That line also got less Ozone starts than Panarin/AA/Kane and Toews/Hossa/Panik can actually play D. People need to start accepting that PAK line is bad at defending.
Panik isn't a great fit, but the #1 or #2 line, whatever you want to call it with PAK, needs to be better or needs to change. - breadbag
The Toews line might drive possession but they don't do much with the puck in the shape of dangerous scoring chances. That to me is the missing link. The line plays a great two-way game. Maintains possession but does not really pose an as offensive threat 5 on 5.
Ha Rick, knowing Stan he probably wouldn't get more than a few late round picks and have to retain salary.
Yes, he did hoist a trophy. My point I guess missed though was is he now the highest paid shut-down guy in the NHL? It's great that he is capable of that but last I looked, you don't pay a guy $10.4M for that -- maybe $3M if you're Swedish and get rag-dolled a lot.
Honestly, I expect more out of the guy and I just am not seeing it. His salary (and of course Kane's) are what keeps the club from being able to add any legit NHL'ers on wing. It's why I said he needs to look in the mirror. - savvyone-1
Hi Savvy, I'm not forgetting about the World Cup of Hockey, but I think we all need to remember that Toews is historically a slow starter. Certainly I agree that a shutdown line shouldn't make that much money. It's just another reason I say again & again that Stan Bowman has the toughest job in town.
The Toews line might drive possession but they don't do much with the puck in the shape of dangerous scoring chances. That to me is the missing link. The line plays a great two-way game. Maintains possession but does not really pose an as offensive threat 5 on 5. - bhawks2241
Right, but you have to consider the scoring chances given up too. In terms of Corsi, Fenwick, shots, scoring chances, at 5v5 Toews was near the top of the team in all categories last night. And remember, unlike Panarin/Kane he didn't get a 85-90% Ozone to Dzone start ratio like those guys.
I agree with you but I would not wait any longer on pulling the trigger on a larger trade. We don't need both Crawford and Darling. We also have a surplus of D, so TVR could be part of said deal.
BTW, do you know who or what was being offered by Calgary for Crawford during the off season? The trade you reported on prior to the draft.
I was replying to you calling him a good, but no longer great player. I think he had a legitimate beef with Parayko not getting an embellishment call on that one. - JRoenick97
To be accurate, I said I don't know if Toews is still a great player, but he is still at least a very good player. So I didn't say he isn't still a great player - I said I don't know if he still rises to the level of "great player". My definition of "great player" includes point totals above what Toews has produced lately. I don't question his other very good hockey attributes like defense and faceoffs and will to win, but IMO opinion to be considered among the great players in the league there also has to be a certain level of offensive production that Toews has lately fallen short of. And yes, his offensive totals are influenced by his linemates so maybe his less than great offensive numbers are mostly due to that. We'll see. Hopefully his offensive production picks up.
But regardless of all that - my point stands - Toews should just play and keep his yap shut.
Everybody on this site prolly has some valid points ,including myself: Don't worry,next summer when we have a top 7pick, Bowman will probably screw that 1 up also and draft some 5"2 kid that starred in a park district Ball Hockey League. His moves all tilt toward that way. Until they see what's going on and kick him in the ass and tell him to stay out of the way until they need a final signature???? Kenny Williams Part ll?
Noticed that, too, although it seemed from the reports that he did well at the WCH, and was finely tuned physically.
Since last year, both he and Keith (who pulled in Toews and Oduya and Ladd) are shilling for and apparently big disciples of Onnit, which professes "total human optimization," "suppressing your ego," "natural" psychedelics and PEDs (incl pot as a PED), etc. etc. They sell cross-fit training and a whole line of supplements. You could see them prominently displayed in many of Toews postings this summer.
Looking at their site and listening to their founder bloviate and pontificate, it always brings to mind for me a modern snake-oil salesmen / cult-of-personality.
Of course, both Toews and Keith on a bad day are more fit and healthy than I have ever been or will ever be. But, given what has been visible with both of them in the past couple of seasons, I'm definitely side-eyeing their involvement with this company and can't help wondering if it has anything at all to do with their mental engagement or physical prep for the game. Maybe it's helpful, maybe it's harmful, but both of them have just seemed "off" to me when compared to, say, 2013 and 2014, for example, in the aggression department for Toews. - pdx2ord
Idk what it is but Toews looks slower and his offensive game is predictable. Where is this guy hiding?
Location: I'm singing the Blues!, IL Joined: 03.04.2011
Oct 13 @ 12:51 PM ET
Noticed that, too, although it seemed from the reports that he did well at the WCH, and was finely tuned physically.
Since last year, both he and Keith (who pulled in Toews and Oduya and Ladd) are shilling for and apparently big disciples of Onnit, which professes "total human optimization," "suppressing your ego," "natural" psychedelics and PEDs (incl pot as a PED), etc. etc. They sell cross-fit training and a whole line of supplements. You could see them prominently displayed in many of Toews postings this summer.
Looking at their site and listening to their founder bloviate and pontificate, it always brings to mind for me a modern snake-oil salesmen / cult-of-personality.
Of course, both Toews and Keith on a bad day are more fit and healthy than I have ever been or will ever be. But, given what has been visible with both of them in the past couple of seasons, I'm definitely side-eyeing their involvement with this company and can't help wondering if it has anything at all to do with their mental engagement or physical prep for the game. Maybe it's helpful, maybe it's harmful, but both of them have just seemed "off" to me when compared to, say, 2013 and 2014, for example, in the aggression department for Toews. - pdx2ord
pdx, thanks for this, had no idea.
Hmm, to the bolded (which is Toews, which is Keith), wonder what it's like to play an NHL game stoned?
