Says you, with literally no argument to make.
- James_Tanner

He's an above average defensive dman with little offense to provide. It is what it is.

It's not like you've given any credible argument to say he belongs on Team Canada. You made the statement, those in charge said he's not good enough, it's your burden of proof, not mine.

So, it doesn't resonate for you, at all, that you think the majority of good players in the league are on terrible teams? Really? 4 of the 6 d you mentioned were on non-playoff teams. Your forward lineup would probably be similar.

The reason has nothing to do with people's perceptions, it's the measures you use, and your understanding of them.

Does it not seem at all strange to you, that you think the majority of the best players in the league are on the bottom 45% or so of teams in the league, by your criteria? Wouldn't logic dictate that good teams will have good players? Now, I mean, it's not like bad teams can't have good players, but common sense would say that the number of good players would be skewed towards good teams, doesn't it?
- prock

Oh my god dude......you and MJL should have your own site.

Oh my god dude......you and MJL should have your own site.
- James_Tanner

You always react like this when you can't deal with it. The minute too much common sense, or evidence that contradicts what you say, is presented, you get fed up.

The article has Vlasic as the #1 in the league. Tanev is high though, overall. Illl try and find it.
- James_Tanner

http://www.stanleycupofch...he-nhl-right-now-for-real

Exactly. This is something that is above Tanner's head. You're not adjusting for teammates, you're comparing to them.

So, having a good RelTM on a crap team doesn't mean as much as having a good one on a good team. Like most stats, it has to be looked at in context. Deployment, how good your team is, etc.

It's fooling him into thinking that the only half-decent player on garbage teams are superstars that no one else seems to realize.
- prock

here is a direct quote from one of the world's most respected hockey stats guys

"RelTM stats - RelTM stats are a way of adjusting for the kinds of teammates a player gets to play with. "

and it's from the same article I just quoted and the one yesterday that gave out information on those stats.

here is a direct quote from one of the world's most respected hockey stats guys

"RelTM stats - RelTM stats are a way of adjusting for the kinds of teammates a player gets to play with. "

and it's from the same article I just quoted and the one yesterday that gave out information on those stats.
- James_Tanner

https://hockeyanalysis.co...-are-rel-and-reltm-stats/

It's relative to team. The very definition of it. Compared to teammates. It's that simple. It's not adjusting for teammates, it's comparing to them. End of story.

I understand that, but at the moment I do not have hours to go through game tape. But given the tools I have, and statistics and analytics I have at my disposal and recent, but flawed memory of watching both players. Bouwmeester is an average hockey player at this point of his career, in offense and defense. Whereas Gio is well above average is offense, and even if he is average in defense, the upside he brings is offense will always outweigh someone who's average in every aspect.
- j.boyd919

I'm not arguing who's a better overall player. I simply looking at it from the angle of the type of player a coach may want, in a certain role.

here is a direct quote from one of the world's most respected hockey stats guys

"RelTM stats - RelTM stats are a way of adjusting for the kinds of teammates a player gets to play with. "

and it's from the same article I just quoted and the one yesterday that gave out information on those stats.
- James_Tanner

If you actually read that in detail (I saw this a while back), you would see how points out the flaws in Rel and Rel TM stats and they only make up a portion of his assessment.

In fact, he goes on to say:

“This(qndCorsi), along with xGD60RelTM, will be my main method of assessing how well a defenseman plays at 5 on 5.”

There are flaws in hero charts. But they aren't that flawed.

If JB is ranked as suppressing shots that poorly, and Gio is ranked that highly, I don't think it's up for debate. That is a massive difference which can't be explained away with strawman arguments about flaws in the data or whatever.

Fact: Bouweester is an OK dman with good skating who's had a decent career and is currently about a 4th Dman. Giordano is among the best of the best and arguably even top 5 in the world.
- James_Tanner

First of all, let me correct you on one thing. Nobody, including myself has stated that Giordano is not the better player, so get your fact straight. Secondly, the only thing that was offered, was the possibility that the coaching staff is looking for a certain kind of player, to fit a role, rather than just picking from the ranking list of who is a better player, overall.

Lastly, I'm still waiting on your answer on whether the HERO charts you post so frequently, use score adjusted data?

If you actually read that in detail (I saw this a while back), you would see how points out the flaws in Rel and Rel TM stats and they only make up a portion of his assessment.

In fact, he goes on to say:

“This(qndCorsi), along with xGD60RelTM, will be my main method of assessing how well a defenseman plays at 5 on 5.”
- Tumbleweed

Which is reasonable. I'm not saying ignore it. Give it it's due consideration. Which is NOT the be all end all factor in critiquing a players D. Just one small factor.

Tanner needs to do a little more reading of this kind of thing, and thinking, before he criticizes.

You always react like this when you can't deal with it. The minute too much common sense, or evidence that contradicts what you say, is presented, you get fed up.
- prock

Which is reasonable. I'm not saying ignore it. Give it it's due consideration. Which is NOT the be all end all factor in critiquing a players D. Just one small factor.

Tanner needs to do a little more reading of this kind of thing, and thinking, before he criticizes.
- prock

You always react like this when you can't deal with it. The minute too much common sense, or evidence that contradicts what you say, is presented, you get fed up.
- prock

No, that's how I react when people don't listen or think about what other people say. It's how I show my frustration at the level of discourse going on, which is terrible.

No, that's how I react when people don't listen or think about what other people say. It's how I show my frustration at the level of discourse going on, which is terrible.
- James_Tanner

I've listened to what you have to say. I've repeatedly stated I think you put far too much stock in CorsiRel. I've stated why. I've given several reasons.

It's you that doesn't listen. Despite several articles stating why it's flawed. Common sense, real life examples of it's issues. But you just ignore them and get frustrated.

I'll state it again, it's not the be all end all stat. It's a stat that shows what effect a player has on his team. It compares a player to his teammates. That inherently has it's flaws, and is a team influenced statistic. You don't seem to follow that. Which is mind boggling to me. Any statistic that, by it's very definition, is in comparison to one's teammates, is so completely, obviously, team influenced.

It deserves consideration. You seem to hold it in far higher regard than you should.

If you just get flustered, and can't talk to the things you write about, maybe you shouldn't be writing them.

No, that's how I react when people don't listen or think about what other people say. It's how I show my frustration at the level of discourse going on, which is terrible.
- James_Tanner

You’re not listening or thinking about what you are seeing. The guy that came up with that whole assessment said qndCorsi and xGD60RelTM are his main stats for comparison purposes.

Both those metrics (if they work how they should), try to remove teammates out of the equation and use more data that just overall shot counts as a starting point.

These seem like potentially good metrics for comparing players across teams.

Rel and RelTM on their own are simply and factually not.

I've listened to what you have to say. I've repeatedly stated I think you put far too much stock in CorsiRel. I've stated why. I've given several reasons.

It's you that doesn't listen. Despite several articles stating why it's flawed. Common sense, real life examples of it's issues. But you just ignore them and get frustrated.

I'll state it again, it's not the be all end all stat. It's a stat that shows what effect a player has on his team. It compares a player to his teammates. That inherently has it's flaws, and is a team influenced statistic. You don't seem to follow that. Which is mind boggling to me. Any statistic that, by it's very definition, is in comparison to one's teammates, is so completely, obviously, team influenced.

It deserves consideration. You seem to hold it in far higher regard than you should.

If you just get flustered, and can't talk to the things you write about, maybe you shouldn't be writing them.
- prock

He’s posting links to articles that describe the flaws in those stats and provide better ones to use; and somehow he doesn’t see this.

I think he’s just trolling at this point.

I've listened to what you have to say. I've repeatedly stated I think you put far too much stock in CorsiRel. I've stated why. I've given several reasons.

It's you that doesn't listen. Despite several articles stating why it's flawed. Common sense, real life examples of it's issues. But you just ignore them and get frustrated.

I'll state it again, it's not the be all end all stat. It's a stat that shows what effect a player has on his team. It compares a player to his teammates. That inherently has it's flaws, and is a team influenced statistic. You don't seem to follow that. Which is mind boggling to me. Any statistic that, by it's very definition, is in comparison to one's teammates, is so completely, obviously, team influenced.

It deserves consideration. You seem to hold it in far higher regard than you should.

If you just get flustered, and can't talk to the things you write about, maybe you shouldn't be writing them.
- prock

The first thing is that any corsi based stat, for an individual player, is flawed from the get go. No getting around that. Secondly, a factor that analytics proponents talk about all the time, is sample size. When looking at RelTM, or WOWY's, sample size can be an issue. Not to mention score effects.

The first thing is that any corsi based stat, for an individual player, is flawed from the get go. No getting around that. Secondly, a factor that analytics proponents talk about all the time, is sample size. When looking at RelTM, or WOWY's, sample size can be an issue. Not to mention score effects.
- MJL

Yeah, again, they have their use. In context. I wouldn't ignore them altogether, nothing wrong with using them as a small factor in looking at a player.

http://www.stanleycupofchowder.com/2016/8/16/12481256/the-top-20-defensemen-in-the-nhl-right-now-for-real
- James_Tanner

muchos gracias amigo.

I'm not arguing who's a better overall player. I simply looking at it from the angle of the type of player a coach may want, in a certain role.
- MJL

Yeah I get that, I'm not big on the whole role player thing. If you're a good hockey player, you can adapt and play the role that is needed, and then some, which is why I lean more to better overall players. Same with "PK specialists" and all that nonsense.

Yeah, again, they have their use. In context. I wouldn't ignore them altogether, nothing wrong with using them as a small factor in looking at a player.
- prock

Absolutely, total agreement. They're a useful tool that has a part in player evaluations. How much is debatable, but I see them as about 20-30% of the picture. The issue is when they're used improperly, out of context, and as the sole method of player evaluations. They're just not that good to be the sole factor.

It is equally wrong to ignore analytics as a tool to evaluate players, as it is to use them as the only tool to evaluate players.

You’re not listening or thinking about what you are seeing. The guy that came up with that whole assessment said qndCorsi and xGD60RelTM are his main stats for comparison purposes.

Both those metrics (if they work how they should), try to remove teammates out of the equation and use more data that just overall shot counts as a starting point.

These seem like potentially good metrics for comparing players across teams.

Rel and RelTM on their own are simply and factually not.
- Tumbleweed

Who said they were? This conversation makes no sense to me.

Absolutely, total agreement. They're a useful tool that has a part in player evaluations. How much is debatable, but I see them as about 20-30% of the picture. The issue is when they're used improperly, out of context, and as the sole method of player evaluations. They're just not that good to be the sole factor.

It is equally wrong to ignore analytics as a tool to evaluate players, as it is to use them as the only tool to evaluate players.
- MJL

You telling other people how to evaluate hockey players is the absolute best. Please never stop.

Who said they were? This conversation makes no sense to me.
- James_Tanner

The guy who wrote this article:

http://www.stanleycupofch...he-nhl-right-now-for-real

Honestly, now you're being facetious.

He clearly stats the flaws and Rel and RelTM stats and clearly says which stats are the main focus of his analysis.

The guy who wrote this article:

http://www.stanleycupofch...he-nhl-right-now-for-real
- Tumbleweed

To be honest, I would pay money to watch that guy decimate the arguments put on this board about advanced stats. That guy is extremely knowledgeable, dedicated and smart. If he says Vlasic is the best all-round defenseman or that Chris Tanev is the tenth best in the NHL, people best be listening.