Murr won't be winning the Calder with Matthews and Laine in the mix. Those two kids are outrageous talents.
- Victoro311

I agree. I was just pointing out that the scenario sd pointed out had already happened with Dryden so if Murray did somehow win the Calder(which could be possible if he somehow became the full-time #1 early) that he wouldn't be the 1st player to win a Cup before winning the Calder.

I will say that after watching some of these games, 1 thing that is starting to bother me is that young European players like Barkov & Laine are allowed to represent their countries while young NA players like McDavid & Matthews have to play for Team NA. Sure it's a big part of why Team NA is so exciting but I'd be just as excited to see McDavid lineup up with the other Canadian stars and Matthews wearing the Red/White & Blue, although Matthews would have probably been passed over on the USA roster for being too skilled.

I will say that after watching some of these games, 1 thing that is starting to bother me is that young European players like Barkov & Laine are allowed to represent their countries while young NA players like McDavid & Matthews have to play for Team NA. Sure it's a big part of why Team NA is so exciting but I'd be just as excited to see McDavid lineup up with the other Canadian stars and Matthews wearing the Red/White & Blue, although Matthews would have probably been passed over on the USA roster for being too skilled.
- jaydogg1974

I totally agree with this. That team and Europe should not exist. Its a world cup and at least Switzerland, Slovakia and Germany should be a part of it.

If the final is Canada/USA vs North America its going to be pretty dumb. Fun to watch no doubt, but dumb.

I will say that after watching some of these games, 1 thing that is starting to bother me is that young European players like Barkov & Laine are allowed to represent their countries while young NA players like McDavid & Matthews have to play for Team NA. Sure it's a big part of why Team NA is so exciting but I'd be just as excited to see McDavid lineup up with the other Canadian stars and Matthews wearing the Red/White & Blue, although Matthews would have probably been passed over on the USA roster for being too skilled.
- jaydogg1974

I think this is only a big deal for Connor McDavid. I don't think any other player on NA would make the big club. The Canadian Team is too stacked and America is too stupid to put the likes of Eichel, Johnny Hockey, and Saad on the team.

I agree. I was just pointing out that the scenario sd pointed out had already happened with Dryden so if Murray did somehow win the Calder(which could be possible if he somehow became the full-time #1 early) that he wouldn't be the 1st player to win a Cup before winning the Calder.
- jaydogg1974

I'm starting to wander what the return on Murray will be if we can't move fleury and hes playing like an above average goalie.

A lot of talk that he's the next carey price future top 5 goalie. I would say fair value would be Drouin (not that we would trade with tampa for obvious reasons just as a marker value). Top 5 picks whose starting to show he's a front line player. I would prefer a 1 for 1 swap as oppose to a package. A package has far too high of likelihood of not panning out and a package would include picks/prospects and less likely to benefit us near term.

I agree. I was just pointing out that the scenario sd pointed out had already happened with Dryden so if Murray did somehow win the Calder(which could be possible if he somehow became the full-time #1 early) that he wouldn't be the 1st player to win a Cup before winning the Calder.
- jaydogg1974

I'm starting to wander what the return on Murray will be if we can't move fleury and hes playing like an above average goalie.

A lot of talk that he's the next carey price future top 5 goalie. I would say fair value would be Drouin (not that we would trade with tampa for obvious reasons just as a marker value). Top 5 picks whose starting to show he's a front line player. I would prefer a 1 for 1 swap as oppose to a package. A package has far too high of likelihood of not panning out and a package would include picks/prospects and less likely to benefit us near term.

I just watched orchestrating an upset. I've watched the highlights and everything but I'm not going to act like I watched it back in the day or anything. No chance anything that cool will ever happen again in hockey. You have to have a certain level of violence to breed the level of hate needed to have such a desperate and awesome three game series. From all the mayhem of broken plays and guys just trying to hold on for dear life comes the most exciting and unexpected goals of all time. Its sad what hockey once was and how its now on its way to just another sport.

I just watched orchestrating an upset. I've watched the highlights and everything but I'm not going to act like I watched it back in the day or anything. No chance anything that cool will ever happen again in hockey. You have to have a certain level of violence to breed the level of hate needed to have such a desperate and awesome three game series. From all the mayhem of broken plays and guys just trying to hold on for dear life comes the most exciting and unexpected goals of all time. Its sad what hockey once was and how its now on its way to just another sport.
- Grinder47

the trolling is getting to obvious

I'm starting to wander what the return on Murray will be if we can't move fleury and hes playing like an above average goalie.

A lot of talk that he's the next carey price future top 5 goalie. I would say fair value would be Drouin (not that we would trade with tampa for obvious reasons just as a marker value). Top 5 picks whose starting to show he's a front line player. I would prefer a 1 for 1 swap as oppose to a package. A package has far too high of likelihood of not panning out and a package would include picks/prospects and less likely to benefit us near term.
- sditulli

Franchise goalie is a much bigger peice than an offensive winger.

Franchise goalie is a much bigger peice than an offensive winger.
- MattStrat

A lot of people do not believe that anymore. I also view Drouin as at worst a solid top6 guy and a good chance of being the guy who runs the line (like a kessel).

A lot of people do not believe that anymore. I also view Drouin as at worst a solid top6 guy and a good chance of being the guy who runs the line (like a kessel).
- sditulli

... But you were talking about him potentially being a top 5 goalie in the world...

... But you were talking about him potentially being a top 5 goalie in the world...
- MattStrat

Lundqvist: no Cup and looks to be retiring without one.
Price: No Cup and nowhere close.
Schnieder: We'll see but not looking great.

Those are the three best in the game. Elite goaltending means nothing if you don't have a good team in front of you. Also, Rask has never won a Cup as a starter and now he's being paid 8 mil a year and look at how the Bruins are cap strapped and struggling to fill out depth. They're looking like another team going nowhere fast. Meanwhile:

Niemi: Cup
Crawford: Cup
Fleury: Cup
Quick: Cup
Ward: Cup

These are all guys who have warts, some a lot more serious than others (Niemi and Ward). We just saw this season guys like Jones and and Eliot are capable of backstopping Cup Runs. What this pretty much proves to me is that you should never pay over 6 mil for goaltending. The team in front is always much more important than the goalie. Exception to the rule in recent history is Tim Thomas and the Bruins. If Murray becomes a top 5 goalie in the world by the end of his bridge deal he's about to get and demands 7-8 mil, it'd be very prudent to look for a replacement and trade him for a ransom.

Were Hull and Chelios any good? I feel like that has some potential.
- Victoro311

I liked them fine. They are good to have on for American viewers because they played on the USA team that won in 1996. Melrose glowed about Maatta tor a good 2 minutes. He said Maatta could have played at a high level in any era.

Lundqvist: no Cup and looks to be retiring without one.
Price: No Cup and nowhere close.
Schnieder: We'll see but not looking great.

Those are the three best in the game. Elite goaltending means nothing if you don't have a good team in front of you. Also, Rask has never won a Cup as a starter and now he's being paid 8 mil a year and look at how the Bruins are cap strapped and struggling to fill out depth. They're looking like another team going nowhere fast. Meanwhile:

Niemi: Cup
Crawford: Cup
Fleury: Cup
Quick: Cup
Ward: Cup

These are all guys who have warts, some a lot more serious than others (Niemi and Ward). We just saw this season guys like Jones and and Eliot are capable of backstopping Cup Runs. What this pretty much proves to me is that you should never pay over 6 mil for goaltending. The team in front is always much more important than the goalie. Exception to the rule in recent history is Tim Thomas and the Bruins. If Murray becomes a top 5 goalie in the world by the end of his bridge deal he's about to get and demands 7-8 mil, it'd be very prudent to look for a replacement and trade him for a ransom.
- Victoro311

Holtby is as good as Price and better than Lunk and Schnieder. Bishop is right there too. When did Elliot come anywhere near a cup? Jones is proving to be much better than average and is getting better. Rask never won a cup as a starter but made it to the finals in 2013. Good goal tending is still the difference between good and great teams.

Lundqvist: no Cup and looks to be retiring without one.
Price: No Cup and nowhere close.
Schnieder: We'll see but not looking great.

Those are the three best in the game. Elite goaltending means nothing if you don't have a good team in front of you. Also, Rask has never won a Cup as a starter and now he's being paid 8 mil a year and look at how the Bruins are cap strapped and struggling to fill out depth. They're looking like another team going nowhere fast. Meanwhile:

Niemi: Cup
Crawford: Cup
Fleury: Cup
Quick: Cup
Ward: Cup

These are all guys who have warts, some a lot more serious than others (Niemi and Ward). We just saw this season guys like Jones and and Eliot are capable of backstopping Cup Runs. What this pretty much proves to me is that you should never pay over 6 mil for goaltending. The team in front is always much more important than the goalie. Exception to the rule in recent history is Tim Thomas and the Bruins. If Murray becomes a top 5 goalie in the world by the end of his bridge deal he's about to get and demands 7-8 mil, it'd be very prudent to look for a replacement and trade him for a ransom.
- Victoro311

Lundqvist has been pretty damn close to a cup. Crawford has 2, Quick has 2. Jonathan Quick and Cory Crawford are elite goalies, especially Quick.

Not sure how Elliot fits into this conversation. If anything he goes against the point you're trying to make. His playoff performances have taken nose dives while the team in front of him has played good. End result, no cup for the Blues.

Look at the Canadies last year with or without Price I think they started the season like 9 or 10-0-0 with him. He's the most important player for that team. Much more important than their captain Patches....whos an offensive winger...

Lundqvist has been pretty damn close to a cup. Crawford has 2, Quick has 2. Jonathan Quick and Cory Crawford are elite goalies, especially Quick.

Not sure how Elliot fits into this conversation. If anything he goes against the point you're trying to make. His playoff performances have taken nose dives while the team in front of him has played good. End result, no cup for the Blues.

Look at the Canadies last year with or without Price I think they started the season like 9 or 10-0-0 with him. He's the most important player for that team. Much more important than their captain Patches....whos an offensive winger...
- MattStrat

I guess I don't agree with you and Dcoms I think Eliot had a really good playoffs.

Crawford and Quick aren't elite, especially Quick. Quick had two elite regular seasons and one elite playoffs. The rest of his career has been meh.

Your point about he Canadiens is what I'm trying to say. Price is far and beyond their best and most important player and that's why the Canadiens can't win anything. They don't have the team in front of him to win. He can have a SV% of 940 and the Canadiens still won't make it past the second round of the playoffs.

Jones being elite is a huge stretch. He's good but he can't sniff Lundqvist, Schnieder, Price, and Holtby's jock straps.

The fact remains that Lundqvist and Rask have never won and their cap hits are preventing the build up of a better cast at front.

I don't take it is far as RW that you can make due with average goal tending. I think you need good goal tending and that can come from cheap contracts like Jones and Murray.

I guess I don't agree with you and Dcoms I think Eliot had a really good playoffs.

Crawford and Quick aren't elite, especially Quick. Quick had two elite regular seasons and one elite playoffs. The rest of his career has been meh.

Your point about he Canadiens is what I'm trying to say. Price is far and beyond their best and most important player and that's why the Canadiens can't win anything. They don't have the team in front of him to win. He can have a SV% of 940 and the Canadiens still won't make it past the second round of the playoffs.

Jones being elite is a huge stretch. He's good but he can't sniff Lundqvist, Schnieder, Price, and Holtby's jock straps.

The fact remains that Lundqvist and Rask have never won and their cap hits are preventing the build up of a better cast at front.

I don't take it is far as RW that you can make due with average goal tending. I think you need good goal tending and that can come from cheap contracts like Jones and Murray.
- Victoro311

why do you think ruth picked a goalie in the 2nd round (or whatever it was)

Lundqvist: no Cup and looks to be retiring without one.
Price: No Cup and nowhere close.
Schnieder: We'll see but not looking great.

Those are the three best in the game. Elite goaltending means nothing if you don't have a good team in front of you. Also, Rask has never won a Cup as a starter and now he's being paid 8 mil a year and look at how the Bruins are cap strapped and struggling to fill out depth. They're looking like another team going nowhere fast. Meanwhile:

Niemi: Cup
Crawford: Cup
Fleury: Cup
Quick: Cup
Ward: Cup

These are all guys who have warts, some a lot more serious than others (Niemi and Ward). We just saw this season guys like Jones and and Eliot are capable of backstopping Cup Runs. What this pretty much proves to me is that you should never pay over 6 mil for goaltending. The team in front is always much more important than the goalie. Exception to the rule in recent history is Tim Thomas and the Bruins. If Murray becomes a top 5 goalie in the world by the end of his bridge deal he's about to get and demands 7-8 mil, it'd be very prudent to look for a replacement and trade him for a ransom.
- Victoro311

I don't think Lundqvist main reason for not winning a cup is his salary. NYR problem is the same as the knicks. Win-now mode every year. Strips away assets and they are never bad enough for top 3 picks. No home grown elite talent. Instead a bunch of average to above average players with an elite guy at a position where elite guys come from random draft picks.

why do you think ruth picked a goalie in the 2nd round (or whatever it was)
- martox

I know why. Goaltending play is a bit random (and this guy was best available). Far more random than other positions. If the guy hits then you have a replacement franchise guy for fleury if we trade murray away.

I guess I don't agree with you and Dcoms I think Eliot had a really good playoffs.

Crawford and Quick aren't elite, especially Quick. Quick had two elite regular seasons and one elite playoffs. The rest of his career has been meh.

Your point about he Canadiens is what I'm trying to say. Price is far and beyond their best and most important player and that's why the Canadiens can't win anything. They don't have the team in front of him to win. He can have a SV% of 940 and the Canadiens still won't make it past the second round of the playoffs.

Jones being elite is a huge stretch. He's good but he can't sniff Lundqvist, Schnieder, Price, and Holtby's jock straps.

The fact remains that Lundqvist and Rask have never won and their cap hits are preventing the build up of a better cast at front.

I don't take it is far as RW that you can make due with average goal tending. I think you need good goal tending and that can come from cheap contracts like Jones and Murray.
- Victoro311

Yeah Elliot had a good playoffs this year but still didn't reach the cup. Pretty sure he was hauled for Allen then vice versa at some point too, though not 100% on that. The years before though, just like last year, he had a very good team in front of him. He wasnt good enough. Where would the Blues be if they had Lundqvist, Quick or Price the past few years?

Your last paragraph about Martin and Murray is saying that you need good goal tending from cheap contracts but that kind of play from a goalie is what brings the big contracts. Matt Murray types with cup runs and cup wins are pretty rare.

Quick is most definitely an elite goalie...look at him so far in the World Cup. He's great. He's only 30 years old has 2 cups / 2.27 GAA / 916 SA% and 42 shut outs for his career. Patrick Roy 3 cups. 2.54 GAA / .912 SA% / and 66 shutouts for his career. Marty Brodeur 3 cups 2.24 GAA / .912 SA% and 125 Shutouts (ridiculous amount, Devils trap is major contributor here). The Kings were a heavy favourite last year with the advanced stats crowed, a little more so than the Pens at the end of the season. Its very possible Quick gets at least one more cup. He's an elite goalie and future Hall of Famer.

Yeah Elliot had a good playoffs this year but still didn't reach the cup. Pretty sure he was hauled for Allen then vice versa at some point too, though not 100% on that. The years before though, just like last year, he had a very good team in front of him. He wasnt good enough. Where would the Blues be if they had Lundqvist, Quick or Price the past few years?

Your last paragraph about Martin and Murray is saying that you need good goal tending from cheap contracts but that kind of play from a goalie is what brings the big contracts. Matt Murray types with cup runs and cup wins are pretty rare.

Quick is most definitely an elite goalie...look at him so far in the World Cup. He's great. He's only 30 years old has 2 cups / 2.27 GAA / 916 SA% and 42 shut outs for his career. Patrick Roy 3 cups. 2.54 GAA / .912 SA% / and 66 shutouts for his career. Marty Brodeur 3 cups 2.24 GAA / .912 SA% and 125 Shutouts (ridiculous amount, Devils trap is major contributor here). The Kings were a heavy favourite last year with the advanced stats crowed, a little more so than the Pens at the end of the season. Its very possible Quick gets at least one more cup. He's an elite goalie and future Hall of Famer.
- MattStrat

I mean la kings have a pretty defensive minded system like devils too.

I mean la kings have a pretty defensive minded system like devils too.
- martox

Not near as much as the Devils did in Marty's heydays...you were also allowed to clutch, grab and obstruct back then too.

Not near as much as the Devils did in Marty's heydays...you were also aloud to clutch, grab and obstruct back then too.
- MattStrat

100% agree. just saying they have a defensive minded system

100% agree. just saying they have a defensive minded system
- martox

Agree

Yeah Elliot had a good playoffs this year but still didn't reach the cup. Pretty sure he was hauled for Allen then vice versa at some point too, though not 100% on that. The years before though, just like last year, he had a very good team in front of him. He wasnt good enough. Where would the Blues be if they had Lundqvist, Quick or Price the past few years?

Your last paragraph about Martin and Murray is saying that you need good goal tending from cheap contracts but that kind of play from a goalie is what brings the big contracts. Matt Murray types with cup runs and cup wins are pretty rare.

Quick is most definitely an elite goalie...look at him so far in the World Cup. He's great. He's only 30 years old has 2 cups / 2.27 GAA / 916 SA% and 42 shut outs for his career. Patrick Roy 3 cups. 2.54 GAA / .912 SA% / and 66 shutouts for his career. Marty Brodeur 3 cups 2.24 GAA / .912 SA% and 125 Shutouts (ridiculous amount, Devils trap is major contributor here). The Kings were a heavy favourite last year with the advanced stats crowed, a little more so than the Pens at the end of the season. Its very possible Quick gets at least one more cup. He's an elite goalie and future Hall of Famer.
- MattStrat

These are awful comparisons. You can't compare goalies from 10-20 years ago with modern goalies. Pads are different. Goalie coaching is different especially in terms of how much technique is taught now.

A modern elite goalie is > .93% save percentage. A save percentage around .915 is average nowadays maybe even below average.