I guess the Blue Jays are Canada's team by default... I think that is just an attempt at marketing and I am surprised as many people around the country are buying into it as it seems.

Very true about how much people care about other teams.
- Aetherial

There have been 1000's of diehard Jays fans on the West coast for decades...this isn't new. For sure there are a new wave of bandwagon fans across the county but it's good for the sport.

I think it's much more a case if how much air play the Leafs get. Most fans of Canadian based teams hate the Leafs.
- Canada Cup

I think Montreal is the more historically successful franchise, but I don't think they get the same hate as the Leafs.

It would be nice if some Canadian teams had recently won the cup, that would be better to talk about than the you are worse off than us arguments... or we are potentially better than you.

I think the reason the Leafs are brought up so often is because the teams are in a similar position. There are many Canuck fans here that want to strip the team to bare bones, flip guys on PTO's and 1 year contracts for middle round picks and start from scorched earth. Then there are those that are buying into the Kool-aid that Benning/Linden are serving by remaining competitive.

The debate and criticism goes: "Well it hasnt work for the Oilers, but the Leafs are getting praised for it."; "Media says the Leafs are doing great but Vancouver sucks... man I hate how the media poops on our team even though we are getting younger NHL bodies and replenishing our prospect pool"; etc. etc.

Basically its two passionate fanbases who want their teams to succeed, but are keeping an eye on the other's method of building and comparing the two within their threads. I dont care if we get visitors, it can bring good discussion, but the part that annoys us the most is when commentors pile on the media-driven dialogue that Vancouver is a clueless franchise, when in reality it was a mess and untangling it takes time
- WhiteLie

The biggest issue for the Oilers was always what they did with their picks after round one. They have a couple of guys who look useful (Klefbom in particular looks really good), but overall their later round drafting has been garbage. This is one area where things *appear* to be better for the Leafs - Connor Brown (6th round) went on to win a CHL scoring title, put up 90 pts in 110 AHL games, and then 6 in 7 NHL games last year. We have Johnsson who won a rookie of the year title in Sweden before coming over at the end of last year, and guys like Timashov, Kapanen (via trade) and others who are still very raw but lots of promise.

all the back and forth is just killing time.

the media does drive a lot of the discussion.

what I'd like to see is some projections from them on when they believe each team could be competitive.

also, with the way the media supports the tank, or doesn't support the Vancouver approach, how many teams can simultaneously and effectively tank and rebuild at the same time?
- hillbillydeluxe

What exactly is the vancouver approach?
You arent purposely tanking.....youre not good....but not by design...by bad trades and signings.

Vancouver will finish between 10-20th and Toronto is guaranteed to finish bottom 5. I like watching competitive hockey and will never cheer for losses. We will build the old fashioned way. Make our mid round picks count, develop our kids properly in a competitive environment and supplement the lineup with competent veterans when the opportunitiy presents itself

- CanuckDon

I think the Canucks finishing 16th-26th is more realistic ....the leafs should finish bottom 5 but they could slip above playing in the east and if their goaltending and rookies or prospects or whatever have good seasons

Who exactly have the Canucks developed the right way recently ?

Last year I made a post suggesting that tanking was only going to get worse.

It will get to the point where more than half the NHL will be trying to tank
- Aetherial

totally agree.

once a team realizes it doesn't have a realistic shot at the playoffs (or reasonable playoff success), i see more teams utilizing the tank.

but, if more teams employ that strategy, the lesser the odds that the strategy will work. so it could be a check on the tank strategy, perhaps.

The blue Jays are Canada's team, and I'm a massive fan. Typical leafs fans look at that and gloat like I'm a fan of "their" team even though I live in Vancouver.

Your fan base is full of bum hole arrogant entitled losers that think the world revolves around them and their sports team.
- Scooby_Doo

Yes, and I could make scathing generalizations about the Vancouver fan base also, however this is your thread.

I appreciate the concept, but I don't see where the Leafs and Canucks are all that similar this year.
- Aetherial

They simply aren't.

i hear ya. if i was a leafs fan, i would be optimistic as well.

that doesn't mean that the optimism that is around the club now wasn't there at the onset of the new regimes. it's only in hindsight that you see that nonis (yikes!) and burke aren't especially great drafting gm's.
- RealityChecker

Yup. Although I will give props to Burkie in taking Rielly - he looks to be a beaut! (though Lindholm wouldn't have been too bad either )

I appreciate the concept, but I don't see where the Leafs and Canucks are all that similar this year.
- Aetherial

well that will devolve into an internecine debate within the canucks' fan base.

suffice it to say that not all of us are on board with a "rebuild on the fly."

I think it's much more a case if how much air play the Leafs get. Most fans of Canadian based teams hate the Leafs.
- Canada Cup

The Leafs dont get any more air time than they did 5-10 years ago IMO, particularly when they were in the playoff hunt late in seasons. I think I share Vantel's sentiment that after a while the constant praise for what the Leafs are doing the past couple seasons tearing down the roster is made more nauseating by the bashing and hate that the Canuck brass gets for trying to compete. The number of pieces or stories done that say "That move by Jim Benning is just confusing", "I dont understand the move at all from a Canuck perspective", "They just added a top 6 forward who will be excellent alongside the twins but I still score their free agency an F because it doesnt make sense"

I think the Canucks finishing 16th-26th is more realistic ....the leafs should finish bottom 5 but they could slip above playing in the east and if their goaltending and rookies or prospects or whatever have good seasons

Who exactly have the Canucks developed the right way recently ?
- Redmile247

Horvat, Tanev, Hutton and Virtanen

The blue Jays are Canada's team, and I'm a massive fan. Typical leafs fans look at that and gloat like I'm a fan of "their" team even though I live in Vancouver.

Your fan base is full of bum hole arrogant entitled losers that think the world revolves around them and their sports team.
- Scooby_Doo

Pot: Hey how are you?
Kettle: Doing great, good to see you again.

Its not the Canada Blue Jays....so technically you are a fan of their team. But what's great, is the whole country has embraced....and has done so for decades.

They simply aren't.
- Fakepartofme

Still waiting for a knowledgeable post. You are 0 for 10 champ

totally agree.

once a team realizes it doesn't have a realistic shot at the playoffs (or reasonable playoff success), i see more teams utilizing the tank.

but, if more teams employ that strategy, the lesser the odds that the strategy will work. so it could be a check on the tank strategy, perhaps.
- RealityChecker

I think you can't go to a 14 team lottery. The whole idea of the draft was to help poorer teams get better.

In fact, I don't think a lottery is a solution at all. The problem was never the bad teams getting the best picks. The problem was the same teams getting a bunch of high end picks. It is not good for the league in any way.

The rule should have been that you can't pick first more than once in 5 or 7 years and you can't pick top 3 or 4 more than once in 5 years ... or some variation on that.

Teams will still race to tank, but will be forced to compete rather than perpetually tanking, and the wealth of good young players hopefully gets spread around.

The blue Jays are Canada's team, and I'm a massive fan. Typical leafs fans look at that and gloat like I'm a fan of "their" team even though I live in Vancouver.

Your fan base is full of bum hole arrogant entitled losers that think the world revolves around them and their sports team.
- Scooby_Doo

There have been a couple of your guys who have come over to talk Jays and been rebuked, which is really (frank)ing annoying. Jays are definitely Canada's team. I went to the Oakland Coliseum to see them a couple of months back and there were lots of Jays fans there with roots from all over Canada - it was awesome

I'm hoping to try and convince Mrs Lums to get a couple of tickets to (one of) the games in Seattle in a few weeks as we'll be out that way

Yup. Although I will give props to Burkie in taking Rielly - he looks to be a beaut! (though Lindholm wouldn't have been too bad either )
- lumlums

i think burkie is a very good gm. he had some big hits with the canucks' drafting and some big whiffs. par for the course usually for a gm. i think his trading strategies and player acquisition is very, very good.

however, he's a d!ck who can't seem to understand that no matter how good you are at your job, you will be fired if you piss off the wrong people.

I guess the Blue Jays are Canada's team by default... I think that is just an attempt at marketing and I am surprised as many people around the country are buying into it as it seems.

Very true about how much people care about other teams.
- Aetherial

I'm with you, but I'm not really sure what it means except Canada is force fed Blue Jay content and even if you are a not a Blue Jay fan, you have some knowledge of what is going on with the team.

i attribute it to some sort of Stockholm syndrome.

i think burkie is a very good gm. he had some big hits with the canucks' drafting and some big whiffs. par for the course usually for a gm. i think his trading strategies and player acquisition is very, very good.

however, he's a d!ck who can't seem to understand that no matter how good you are at your job, you will be fired if you piss off the wrong people.
- RealityChecker

Yeah, he seems to be doing better in his new role with the Flames - not as visible, so he can hang back away from the cameras and just let his hair do it's thing...

The Leafs dont get any more air time than they did 5-10 years ago IMO, particularly when they were in the playoff hunt late in seasons. I think I share Vantel's sentiment that after a while the constant praise for what the Leafs are doing the past couple seasons tearing down the roster is made more nauseating by the bashing and hate that the Canuck brass gets for trying to compete. The number of pieces or stories done that say "That move by Jim Benning is just confusing", "I dont understand the move at all from a Canuck perspective", "They just added a top 6 forward who will be excellent alongside the twins but I still score their free agency an F because it doesnt make sense"
- WhiteLie

I can understand how that would be annoying.

The real problem is what we have been discussing. The salary cap has made it so that rebuilding on the fly doesn't look much like a good idea. You need to hit with at least 3 or 4 great draft picks and THEN make shrewd trades and contract decisions.

In today's NHL climate, it appears the Canucks are not going about things in a way that will lead to a championship.

That is a sad commentary on the state of the league more than anything.

The biggest issue for the Oilers was always what they did with their picks after round one. They have a couple of guys who look useful (Klefbom in particular looks really good), but overall their later round drafting has been garbage. This is one area where things *appear* to be better for the Leafs - Connor Brown (6th round) went on to win a CHL scoring title, put up 90 pts in 110 AHL games, and then 6 in 7 NHL games last year. We have Johnsson who won a rookie of the year title in Sweden before coming over at the end of last year, and guys like Timashov, Kapanen (via trade) and others who are still very raw but lots of promise.
- lumlums

I agree there are differences, but the discussions that occur here have been along the sentiment of unloading all top priced and valued assets for picks and prospects. The Leafs did it so they could start from scratch, the Oilers started from scratch, and there are Canuck fans that want them to do the same. Then people post how Edmonton has failed to go from worst to first, and others will point out Chicago and Pittsburgh as successes.

The reasons for failure and success are as you pointed out, doing well in later rounds is critical

There have been a couple of your guys who have come over to talk Jays and been rebuked, which is really (frank)ing annoying. Jays are definitely Canada's team. I went to the Oakland Coliseum to see them a couple of months back and there were lots of Jays fans there with roots from all over Canada - it was awesome

I'm hoping to try and convince Mrs Lums to get a couple of tickets to (one of) the games in Seattle in a few weeks as we'll be out that way
- lumlums

I'm going to the Tuesday night and Wednesday day game in Seattle. Been going down every year for this series for a long time.
In the last 2-3 years it has become a great spectacle of Jays fans. Literally 80% of Safeco Field is Jays fans. Restaurants, bars and the streets are filled with people in Jays gear.

Unfortunately mlb continues to mess it up and make the series mid week.

Horvat, Tanev, Hutton and Virtanen
- CanuckDon

I was huge fan of Virtanen.....until his recent Team Canada jr tourny.

Still waiting for a knowledgeable post. You are 0 for 10 champ
- CanuckDon

oh no.
Its early here.

But we've been waiting since 2014 for yours...so be patient.

I can understand how that would be annoying.

The real problem is what we have been discussing. The salary cap has made it so that rebuilding on the fly doesn't look much like a good idea. You need to hit with at least 3 or 4 great draft picks and THEN make shrewd trades and contract decisions.

In today's NHL climate, it appears the Canucks are not going about things in a way that will lead to a championship.

That is a sad commentary on the state of the league more than anything.
- Aetherial

disagree even though i'm a tank proponent.

there hasn't been a model that has proven to be successful in winning championships. the 2 most successful teams (Chi and LA) of this decade could be considered tank teams that won but they won approximately 5-8 years after their tanks.

so... high end talent is definitely needed (and it is mostly found at the top of the draft) but there are A LOT of other factors that come into play.

the fact that the tank method is now being widely lauded is somewhat baffling considering it would be a superficial and simplistic argument to say that it is a proven method to winning.