First, let's go by the fact you didn't properly read what the original poster said that I replied to. Nobody said they were "all around defensemen." He stated that Subban and Pietrangelo are better all around that Karlsson. That's a pretty clear distinction.

For argument's sake, let's go by your logic:

Subban and Pietrangelo are both offensive defensemen. So, any way you cut it, you're wrong.
- Rinosaur

You're incorrect. I did not reply to the original poster, I replied to your comment which was

"http://www.hockeybuzz.com/boards/thread.php?thread_id=137629&page=10

"Neither are better all-around than Karlsson. They may not be far off, but they're not better.
- Rinosaur

If Karlsson is not an all around defenseman, then he's simply not a better all around defenseman, then really anyone who might be considered an all around defenseman. Karlsson's value is that he is the best defenseman, in the league with the puck. In my opinion both Subban, and especially Pietrangelo, are better defensively. So you obviously didn't get the point being made there. If you want to say he's a better player because of how good he is offensively and with the puck, fine, but he's not an all around player. That's a pretty clear distinction.

As a neutral third party, I think Karlsson gets too much unfair criticism for his defensive play. His speed and skating are phenomenal assets when it comes to playing defense and those 2 attributes alone make it difficult for him to ever be beat 1 on 1, and if he is, 9 times out of 10 he will recover and outskate you to strip the puck.

He's not a physical, crease-clearing Chara-in-his-prime defensive defenseman, but it is very difficult to beat him 1 on 1 or score against him when he's on the ice.
- rangerdanger94

When your on the ice for the most goals against in the entire leaque, the criticism isn't unfair. He isn't difficult to score against when he's on the ice. His defensive goals against numbers are among the worst in the entire league

Karlsson was on the ice for 84 goals against at 5 on 5, tops among NHL defenseman. In comparison, Doughty was on for 47 at 5 on 5. Lot's of factors there to consider, but Karlsson is a mediocre defensive player, or average if you want, at best, defensively.

No Tavares?
Pavelski? After his Cup final performance?
Karlsson? Great skills. Point total a collection of skill and unwillingness to actually play D. He will never be a great player until he plays both ends of the rink. Until then, he's just a coach killer

When your on the ice for the most goals against in the entire leaque, the criticism isn't unfair. He isn't difficult to score against when he's on the ice. His defensive goals against numbers are among the worst in the entire league

Karlsson was on the ice for 84 goals against at 5 on 5, tops among NHL defenseman. In comparison, Doughty was on for 47 at 5 on 5. Lot's of factors there to consider, but Karlsson is a mediocre defensive player, or average if you want, at best, defensively.
- MJL

How much does that depend on goaltenders/teammates/system though?

The Kings have been one of the most defensively sound teams in the league for half a decade due to their abundance of two way forwards and stringy, strict defense. Plus that guy Quick ain't so bad either.

The Sens on the other hand are a train wreck defensively as far as their system, goaltending and two way forwards are concerned.

To be clear, I don't think Karlsson is better defensively than Doughty. Just that he's better than most people give him credit for.

Actually 2 in 2 years. Remember the broken hand?
- Wetbandit1

actually 3 in 3 years. hasn't played a full season since midget but that is probably cuz he got some games of rest in his first ohl season.

Stamkos isn't a centre anymore and Giroux doesn't deserve to be there.
- flamminghead

Do you watch Tampa games? Hes a center like 90% of the time. Only plays wing when they need a shakeup or have injuries.

only one person here is really defending Toews. that is you. a hawks fan!
- martox

Fortunately JJ didn't write the list otherwise the top 6 would be;

Toews
Kane
Crawford
Keith
Panarin
United Centre zamboni driver

....in no particular order.

Fortunately JJ didn't write the list otherwise the top 6 would be;

Toews
Kane
Crawford
Keith
Panarin
United Centre zamboni driver

....in no particular order.
- Aussiepenguin

The rumoured Malkin to Hawks trade didn't happen because Bowman was unwilling to give up his zamboni driver. He has alot of Cup winning experience plus his corsi is amongst the elite when it comes to ice time vs shot suppression. This might change at the trade deadline when Bowman is looking for a top 6 forward plus a top 4 defenseman.

The rumoured Malkin to Hawks trade didn't happen because Bowman was unwilling to give up his zamboni driver. He has alot of Cup winning experience plus his corsi is amongst the elite when it comes to ice time vs shot suppression. This might change at the trade deadline when Bowman is looking for a top 6 forward plus a top 4 defenseman.
- gergeswillems

Rumour has it that why he is soo good is all the hours he puts in on the ice after all the other players have left!!! Lesson for the young ones there!

Tavares and Ovi-Chicken both belong on this list. Pavelski is a very good player but not in the top 10.
- BringNYIhome

Ovi can dominate more than any player in NHL. Tavares is more important to Isles than any other player on any other team. Him and Tavares not being on list is joke

I thought he played Hockey, not Corsi.
- jkumpire

No one plays Hockey anymore. It's Dungeons and Corsi

The Sens on the other hand are a train wreck defensively as far as their system, goaltending and two way forwards are concerned.

To be clear, I don't think Karlsson is better defensively than Doughty. Just that he's better than most people give him credit for.
- rangerdanger94

Interesting that, Sens fans will claim that Turris and Stone are both top level players defensively. They say Lazar may not produce much, but he's very responsible. Bobby Ryan and Clarke Macarthur are pretty good defensively. Pagiroux, Zach Smith, also great third liners that are fantastic defensively.

Methot, great shutdown guy. Ceci, great two way young dman. And Karlsson, actually quite average defensively.

On top of that, Anderson is an above average goalie to them.

It's puzzling that such a great collection of two way forwards (according to Sens fans), and great dmen, backstopped by a good goalie, somehow collaborate into a complete mess of the worst defensive team in the league. Something has to give, somewhere. Dismissing all of that and blaming it on the coach and some injuries, claiming that Brassard was the missing piece that now makes them ready to contend is just ridiculous.

My top 10

1. Crosby
2. Patrick Kane
3. Jamie Benn
4. Erik Karlsson
5. Drew Doughty
6. Anze Kopitar
7. Carey Price (would be higher but hurt all year)
8. John Tavares
9. Tyler Seguin
10. Joe Pavelski

Toews is overrated. Mcdavid is to young to be top ten. He hasnt even played 50 games yet. Ov. can score but he is not top ten player. I did my top ten based on starting team for next year and only next year.

No one plays Hockey anymore. It's Dungeons and Corsi
- glove_was_stuck

David Poile agrees..."we felt that PK Subban has a much higher degree of playing Dungeons and Corsi than Shea Weber does. Shea is a minus 563% in on ice dungeon suppression while PK is a plus 983%. This tells us that PK Subban is the best dungeons and corsi defenseman in the NHL while the declining Weber is no better than a #8 defenseman in todays Dungeons and Corsi NHL."

No one plays Hockey anymore. It's Dungeons and Corsi
- glove_was_stuck

It's Adam and EVE not Adam and CORSI

It's Adam and EVE not Adam and CORSI
- eichiefs9

Adam scored more goals but Eve had the better Corsi.

My top 10

1. Crosby
2. Patrick Kane
3. Jamie Benn
4. Erik Karlsson
5. Drew Doughty
6. Anze Kopitar
7. Carey Price (would be higher but hurt all year)
8. John Tavares
9. Tyler Seguin
10. Joe Pavelski

Toews is overrated. Mcdavid is to young to be top ten. He hasnt even played 50 games yet. Ov. can score but he is not top ten player. I did my top ten based on starting team for next year and only next year.
- hanleyaj

Only goals win hockey games.
And not including a 7 times 50 goals scorer in TOP 10 is just a joke
Including his rookie season

Adam scored more goals but Eve had the better Corsi.
- gergeswillems

Which one had more grit/heart/jam/good-locker-room-guy-ness?

Which one had more grit/heart/jam/good-locker-room-guy-ness?
- eichiefs9

Well neither had jock straps to cover themselves with so the New Jersey Devil told them to go to hell. In the garden Adam was more vocal but Eve was able to convince Adam Larsson to eat the forbidden PK fruit. So give Eve the edge when it comes to gameplanning between Miro Satan visits. Connor McJesus has the best Corsi by the way.

Toews is grossly overrated on that list. He would be the guy I take off of said list.
- Oneonta Penguin

Whoa, whoa. Hold on there.

Toews had 8 more points than Ovechkin had goals last season...

if true....

big.

How much does that depend on goaltenders/teammates/system though?

The Kings have been one of the most defensively sound teams in the league for half a decade due to their abundance of two way forwards and stringy, strict defense. Plus that guy Quick ain't so bad either.

The Sens on the other hand are a train wreck defensively as far as their system, goaltending and two way forwards are concerned.

To be clear, I don't think Karlsson is better defensively than Doughty. Just that he's better than most people give him credit for.
- rangerdanger94

I agree with all of that, which is why I stated that there are many factors involved with that. I agree that Karlsson is not awful like some say he is, but he is average defensively at best. I would not call him an all around player.

if true....

big.
- LordHumungous

Yak to Habs imminent. Stay tuned. More to come...

My top 10

1. Crosby
2. Patrick Kane
3. Jamie Benn
4. Erik Karlsson
5. Drew Doughty
6. Anze Kopitar
7. Carey Price (would be higher but hurt all year)
8. John Tavares
9. Tyler Seguin
10. Joe Pavelski

Toews is overrated. Mcdavid is to young to be top ten. He hasnt even played 50 games yet. Ov. can score but he is not top ten player. I did my top ten based on starting team for next year and only next year.
- hanleyaj

Yeah 3 cups in six years says Toews is overrated...plus the gold medals and WC hardware.



McDavid is already top 5 if not top 2 Was on a higher PPG than Kane last year for games played and if healthy this year should lead the league in scoring.

Wow dude...

Yeah 3 cups in six years says Toews is overrated...plus the gold medals and WC hardware.



McDavid is already top 5 if not top 2 Was on a higher PPG than Kane last year for games played and if healthy this year should lead the league in scoring.

Wow dude...
- LordHumungous

3 Cups in 6 years and a bunch of other championships doesn't make him one of the top-10 most skilled players in the league. He's very good, a great leader, but he's not a top-10 player in the NHL.