On this college FA issue with drafted players I wonder if the next CBA will further address this? Easy enough for management to add many more "penalties" for drafted college FA in negotiations and labor most times doesn't care much, or at least will fight for, new employees.

Something about skirting rules or finding loopholes that will get the public on your side in a fight for public opinion.

Maybe compensation for any player drafted that goes the Vesey route? The team signing him gives up a pick? Remember the real loser in this is Nashville, although they do get a 3rd(?) round pick, followed by Buffalo who gave up a 3rd to negotiate with the kid.
- Mr Ricochet

Yeah I wonder too, but how do you? Rewrite the rule to read, when you draft a player, he is the team's exclusive property forever?
(the ironc thing is this loophole cames form trying to close the other one...Mike Van Ryn was drafted by the New Jersey Devils in the first round, In June 2000, through a loophole, Van Ryn signed as a free agent with the St. Louis Blues, because he waited two years after leaviung school early to do so. NHL teams retain the rights of drafted college players until they leave the school. Van Ryn challenged this practice in court and an arbitrator ruled that a player drafted off a college team could play one season of major junior hockey and then become a free agent. Thus after two years at the University of Michigan, Van Ryn went on to play one year for Sarnia Sting, and then became a free agent, which allowed him to sign a three-year deal with St. Louis.)

The reason the rule was rewritten to the current form is

a) the NHL figured the teams would have spent time and $ wooing them helping them evaluate their college games, and the players would feel kinship and gratitude to their "family."

b) the rule stopped a trend of college kids leaving school and going back to amateur leagues to get free from the slave owner (team that drafted them) and the GIANT bonuses we saw being thrown at these college gusy and they crapped the bed quickly as pros...i am talking NOT above the propects who looked like potential first round guys, but the group that grew, grew their game, and improved their play...

c) After four years a college, not enough of the college players past over would become potential impact players even on the bottom end of rosters to warrant concern.
(What changed was the CAP morphed into a easy nice way to manage CAP budgets.)

d) "yeah, they court system told us where they stand, we will let them be free, after their 4th college year", so it seems to be a sticky wicket to attempt to try to close the loophole.

The nature of drafting 18 year olds is never gonnas be an exact science, the draft age is NOT going up to 19 or 20 (with first and 2nd round exceptions, my idea), so you are going to continue to see a smaller number of kids not drafted in the FIRST round improve to where they CAN sell their upside on the open market. Those other formerly drafted kids, mentioned as not Jimmy Vesey are NOT Jimmy Vesey level gems. (http://www.thehockeynews....ts-not-named-jimmy-vesey/)

I totally agree that the real loser when a Vesey propsect emerges is the team that takes him in a round other than the first, because they lost a pick.
The league needs to amend the current compensation to read teams losing a 4th yr. college grade get a compensation pick in the same slot a round later. But I would add all 4th yr. college grads who sin before the end of August of that year, and then you are actually giving extra picks for players that have garnished true interest from other clubs, not 6 month later fills made to cover AHL injuries.


Some ex-player reps suggest that teams take a hard line two & half year in, and outright sit the kids and agents down and get their intentions known even if they have to sign them early TO AVOID teams being "surprised" so they can plan team organizational needs around these departures...

On this college FA issue with drafted players I wonder if the next CBA will further address this? Easy enough for management to add many more "penalties" for drafted college FA in negotiations and labor most times doesn't care much, or at least will fight for, new employees.

Something about skirting rules or finding loopholes that will get the public on your side in a fight for public opinion.

Maybe compensation for any player drafted that goes the Vesey route? The team signing him gives up a pick? Remember the real loser in this is Nashville, although they do get a 3rd(?) round pick, followed by Buffalo who gave up a 3rd to negotiate with the kid.
- Mr Ricochet

I thought someone did get a pick - probably Buffalo, who bought his rights with a pick - isn't it a pick after the round in which Vesey was originally drafted?

I thought someone did get a pick - probably Buffalo, who bought his rights with a pick - isn't it a pick after the round in which Vesey was originally drafted?
- StLBravesFan

no only 1st round picks get compensated. That would be an easy fix to the rule.

Just add a pick at the end of the round the player was originally drafted in.

But as with all things NHL, that would be too easy and make too much sense, thus, it aint' happening

no only 1st round picks get compensated. That would be an easy fix to the rule.

Just add a pick at the end of the round the player was originally drafted in.

But as with all things NHL, that would be too easy and make too much sense, thus, it aint' happening
- vabeachbear

I do understand why the rule started out to limit the compensation to first rounders.

The majority of the organziations didn't like the idea of dropping back further in their selections at all.

And if a team picks a kid in the third round and after four college years he looks like an excellent candidate ---- ot play in Sweden or Russia, or Swizterland ,as a low end player (in other words a flop as an NHL candidate), the league didn't want teams getting extra picks over teams who took major junior players who flopped....

I read an interview Vesey gave in which he said that with the NYR he wasn't expected to be the "savior." Maybe the opening in the Blackhawks top 6 was too much pressure for the kid. To JJ's point about the NYR having room for a second contract, I can see why that would be appealing too. Nash's contract expires in two years just in time for Vesey's and Hayes' second contracts.

Ok, moving on. I don't blame the kid and I'm glad the Blackhawks made a hard sell.

Hoping for Hudler. Hoping for cheap. Wouldn't mind adding Fleischmann too on a TO.

I thought someone did get a pick - probably Buffalo, who bought his rights with a pick - isn't it a pick after the round in which Vesey was originally drafted?
- StLBravesFan

Nashville basically knew they were getting screwed out of a pick, and since Buffal had FOUR third rounders they were more than willing to sacrifice one b/c Vesey was more NHL developmenatlly ready than taking yet.

So Nashville did get what they spent for Vesey a 3rd, but if Buffalo didn't want to getr a leg up on the other competition, they would have gotten nothing...

Yeah I wonder too, but how do you? Rewrite the rule to read, when you draft a player, he is the team's exclusive property forever?
(the ironc thing is this loophole cames form trying to close the other one...Mike Van Ryn was drafted by the New Jersey Devils in the first round, In June 2000, through a loophole, Van Ryn signed as a free agent with the St. Louis Blues, because he waited two years after leaviung school early to do so. NHL teams retain the rights of drafted college players until they leave the school. Van Ryn challenged this practice in court and an arbitrator ruled that a player drafted off a college team could play one season of major junior hockey and then become a free agent. Thus after two years at the University of Michigan, Van Ryn went on to play one year for Sarnia Sting, and then became a free agent, which allowed him to sign a three-year deal with St. Louis.)

The reason the rule was rewritten to the current form is

a) the NHL figured the teams would have spent time and $ wooing them helping them evaluate their college games, and the players would feel kinship and gratitude to their "family."

b) the rule stopped a trend of college kids leaving school and going back to amateur leagues to get free from the slave owner (team that drafted them) and the GIANT bonuses we saw being thrown at these college gusy and they crapped the bed quickly as pros...i am talking NOT above the propects who looked like potential first round guys, but the group that grew, grew their game, and improved their play...

c) After four years a college, not enough of the college players past over would become potential impact players even on the bottom end of rosters to warrant concern.
(What changed was the CAP morphed into a easy nice way to manage CAP budgets.)

d) "yeah, they court system told us where they stand, we will let them be free, after their 4th college year", so it seems to be a sticky wicket to attempt to try to close the loophole.

The nature of drafting 18 year olds is never gonnas be an exact science, the draft age is NOT going up to 19 or 20 (with first and 2nd round exceptions, my idea), so you are going to continue to see a smaller number of kids not drafted in the FIRST round improve to where they CAN sell their upside on the open market. Those other formerly drafted kids, mentioned as not Jimmy Vesey are NOT Jimmy Vesey level gems. (http://www.thehockeynews....ts-not-named-jimmy-vesey/)

I totally agree that the real loser when a Vesey propsect emerges is the team that takes him in a round other than the first, because they lost a pick.
The league needs to amend the current compensation to read teams losing a 4th yr. college grade get a compensation pick in the same slot a round later. But I would add all 4th yr. college grads who sin before the end of August of that year, and then you are actually giving extra picks for players that have garnished true interest from other clubs, not 6 month later fills made to cover AHL injuries.


Some ex-player reps suggest that teams take a hard line two & half year in, and outright sit the kids and agents down and get their intentions known even if they have to sign them early TO AVOID teams being "surprised" so they can plan team organizational needs around these departures...
- wiz1901

Maybe if they had t sit a full season after leaving college before going FA?

In the NFL they employ a zone passing system, the greats use it, the idea is the receiver has to get to this area in order to catch the ball edit within so many seconds, that's what Pitt looked like they were doing as soon as a defenseman would get the puck the opposite forwards job was to do everything he could to get to a spot, at first I thought it was luck but then realized it's by design
- BetweenTheDots

Nice analogy. .. A predetermined scheme (a play) Dmen to know where to get a puck to and forwards to know where to be determined by where they gain possession in their zone whether it be the right or left side or the middle. And like you I watched this a few times and thought the Pens were a bit lucky but when support always followed close by I too realized this ain't no accident

A few things I loved as I watched this. ....

1) Yes you are technically giving up possession by throwing it into an area or to a man that's covered but what I really liked was a support forward coming with his hair on fire. If the target forward could not gain possession he 50/50 the thing or simply pushed it forward or to an area allowing the support to get the loose puck with speed going forward and he was followed by another support forward.

2) It also allowed the Pens to always seemingly out number the puck as most times the other opposing Dman is hesitant to come all the way over to help and leave a huge amount of ice open and with no help. That left one Dman to deal with the target forward and the support forward that was advancing.

3) If you give up possession you are BEHIND the puck and don't get caught with an odd man rush the other way and give it up 150 feet from your net.

4) The common denominator in all of this is speed and always always pushing the thing forward applying pressure whether you have the puck or not.

Man that was fun to watch. Speed, speed, speed and more speed. Pressure, pressure, pressure and more pressure.

That is thinking outside the box and working with what you have.

Yeah I wonder too, but how do you? Rewrite the rule to read, when you draft a player, he is the team's exclusive property forever?
(the ironc thing is this loophole cames form trying to close the other one...Mike Van Ryn was drafted by the New Jersey Devils in the first round, In June 2000, through a loophole, Van Ryn signed as a free agent with the St. Louis Blues, because he waited two years after leaviung school early to do so. NHL teams retain the rights of drafted college players until they leave the school. Van Ryn challenged this practice in court and an arbitrator ruled that a player drafted off a college team could play one season of major junior hockey and then become a free agent. Thus after two years at the University of Michigan, Van Ryn went on to play one year for Sarnia Sting, and then became a free agent, which allowed him to sign a three-year deal with St. Louis.)

The reason the rule was rewritten to the current form is

a) the NHL figured the teams would have spent time and $ wooing them helping them evaluate their college games, and the players would feel kinship and gratitude to their "family."

b) the rule stopped a trend of college kids leaving school and going back to amateur leagues to get free from the slave owner (team that drafted them) and the GIANT bonuses we saw being thrown at these college gusy and they crapped the bed quickly as pros...i am talking NOT above the propects who looked like potential first round guys, but the group that grew, grew their game, and improved their play...

c) After four years a college, not enough of the college players past over would become potential impact players even on the bottom end of rosters to warrant concern.
(What changed was the CAP morphed into a easy nice way to manage CAP budgets.)

d) "yeah, they court system told us where they stand, we will let them be free, after their 4th college year", so it seems to be a sticky wicket to attempt to try to close the loophole.

The nature of drafting 18 year olds is never gonnas be an exact science, the draft age is NOT going up to 19 or 20 (with first and 2nd round exceptions, my idea), so you are going to continue to see a smaller number of kids not drafted in the FIRST round improve to where they CAN sell their upside on the open market. Those other formerly drafted kids, mentioned as not Jimmy Vesey are NOT Jimmy Vesey level gems. (http://www.thehockeynews....ts-not-named-jimmy-vesey/)

I totally agree that the real loser when a Vesey propsect emerges is the team that takes him in a round other than the first, because they lost a pick.
The league needs to amend the current compensation to read teams losing a 4th yr. college grade get a compensation pick in the same slot a round later. But I would add all 4th yr. college grads who sin before the end of August of that year, and then you are actually giving extra picks for players that have garnished true interest from other clubs, not 6 month later fills made to cover AHL injuries.


Some ex-player reps suggest that teams take a hard line two & half year in, and outright sit the kids and agents down and get their intentions known even if they have to sign them early TO AVOID teams being "surprised" so they can plan team organizational needs around these departures...
- wiz1901

Nice background, Wiz............ I'm not for taking away a kid's options per say more that the team who signs him gives up a higher draft pick, a round higher?, that was used to obtain the kid be given to the club who drafted him.

I this case Vesey was a 3rd so NYR gives NSH a 2nd? If he's a 1st rounder maybe a 1st and 4th or 5th?

Pretty good read here from Logan Coture where he talks a good bit about Keith, Seabs, Toews and the Hawks' system: http://www.theplayerstrib...l-elite-defensemen-top-5/

Nice background, Wiz............ I'm not for taking away a kid's options per say more that the team who signs him gives up a higher draft pick, a round higher?, that was used to obtain the kid be given to the club who drafted him.

I this case Vesey was a 3rd so NYR gives NSH a 2nd? If he's a 1st rounder maybe a 1st and 4th or 5th?
- Mr Ricochet

That sounds like an excellent idea, because then the team isn't getting a freebie for just money, it is more a thought process, "..is he worth it?", but would the courts get in the way because it sort takes the free out of UFA...

Yeah I wonder too, but how do you? Rewrite the rule to read, when you draft a player, he is the team's exclusive property forever?
(the ironc thing is this loophole cames form trying to close the other one...Mike Van Ryn was drafted by the New Jersey Devils in the first round, In June 2000, through a loophole, Van Ryn signed as a free agent with the St. Louis Blues, because he waited two years after leaviung school early to do so. NHL teams retain the rights of drafted college players until they leave the school. Van Ryn challenged this practice in court and an arbitrator ruled that a player drafted off a college team could play one season of major junior hockey and then become a free agent. Thus after two years at the University of Michigan, Van Ryn went on to play one year for Sarnia Sting, and then became a free agent, which allowed him to sign a three-year deal with St. Louis.)

The reason the rule was rewritten to the current form is

a) the NHL figured the teams would have spent time and $ wooing them helping them evaluate their college games, and the players would feel kinship and gratitude to their "family."

b) the rule stopped a trend of college kids leaving school and going back to amateur leagues to get free from the slave owner (team that drafted them) and the GIANT bonuses we saw being thrown at these college gusy and they crapped the bed quickly as pros...i am talking NOT above the propects who looked like potential first round guys, but the group that grew, grew their game, and improved their play...

c) After four years a college, not enough of the college players past over would become potential impact players even on the bottom end of rosters to warrant concern.
(What changed was the CAP morphed into a easy nice way to manage CAP budgets.)

d) "yeah, they court system told us where they stand, we will let them be free, after their 4th college year", so it seems to be a sticky wicket to attempt to try to close the loophole.

The nature of drafting 18 year olds is never gonnas be an exact science, the draft age is NOT going up to 19 or 20 (with first and 2nd round exceptions, my idea), so you are going to continue to see a smaller number of kids not drafted in the FIRST round improve to where they CAN sell their upside on the open market. Those other formerly drafted kids, mentioned as not Jimmy Vesey are NOT Jimmy Vesey level gems. (http://www.thehockeynews....ts-not-named-jimmy-vesey/)

I totally agree that the real loser when a Vesey propsect emerges is the team that takes him in a round other than the first, because they lost a pick.
The league needs to amend the current compensation to read teams losing a 4th yr. college grade get a compensation pick in the same slot a round later. But I would add all 4th yr. college grads who sin before the end of August of that year, and then you are actually giving extra picks for players that have garnished true interest from other clubs, not 6 month later fills made to cover AHL injuries.


Some ex-player reps suggest that teams take a hard line two & half year in, and outright sit the kids and agents down and get their intentions known even if they have to sign them early TO AVOID teams being "surprised" so they can plan team organizational needs around these departures...
- wiz1901

You bring up good points but...
I for one won't be first in line to weep for Nashville or Buffalo.
The NHL needs a reset far beyond this issue...And overall this should be considered a benefit to the quality of play in the NHL.

As you know it wasn't long ago when a kid who stayed in college all 4 years had a stigma attached to him...He normally wasn't sought after but instead scouts would look under his fingernails as to why he didn't come out earlier.

The PA shouldn't mind what's happening but it is a sign the entire league needs a redo on how the salary cap is handled.

That's the main reason a bunch of teams were after Vesey...Teams up against the cap or that figure they are going to be regular playoff participants have to look at Vesey as a risk worth taking. It's a way to possibly get an effective roster player for modest money and be able to kick the salary cap implications down the road for awhile.

The NHL needed to do something with lifetime contracts etc and to to try to level the playing field some but....They overcompensated and the consequences to big market teams is too severe.

Now Bettman always has the parity card in his pocket-Which is a spoiled plan to start. Only 1 sport can brag about parity and that's the NFL and that's not what sells the sport. In reality parity doesn't sell any sport and doesn't happen in baseball or basketball.

Time to get a new agenda and the overriding issue is there's likely too much to change for the current administration to be up to the task.

Nice analogy. .. A predetermined scheme (a play) Dmen to know where to get a puck to and forwards to know where to be determined by where they gain possession in their zone whether it be the right or left side or the middle. And like you I watched this a few times and thought the Pens were a bit lucky but when support always followed close by I too realized this ain't no accident

A few things I loved as I watched this. ....

1) Yes you are technically giving up possession by throwing it into an area or to a man that's covered but what I really liked was a support forward coming with his hair on fire. If the target forward could not gain possession he 50/50 the thing or simply pushed it forward or to an area allowing the support to get the loose puck with speed going forward and he was followed by another support forward.

2) It also allowed the Pens to always seemingly out number the puck as most times the other opposing Dman is hesitant to come all the way over to help and leave a huge amount of ice open and with no help. That left one Dman to deal with the target forward and the support forward that was advancing.

3) If you give up possession you are BEHIND the puck and don't get caught with an odd man rush the other way and give it up 150 feet from your net.

4) The common denominator in all of this is speed and always always pushing the thing forward applying pressure whether you have the puck or not.

Man that was fun to watch. Speed, speed, speed and more speed. Pressure, pressure, pressure and more pressure.

That is thinking outside the box and working with what you have.
- Mr Ricochet

Yep all of this, last year I saw many employing the Bolts have a stick at the blue line to enter the zone, causing so many off sides. I'm sure many speed teams like the Stars took note of what the Pens were doing and will try to attempt the same.

Many times as well the worst thing that would happen is the goalie would come out and play it and the defenseman could get off the ice. It didn't hurt their goalie was on fire as well.

As you know it wasn't long ago when a kid who stayed in college all 4 years had a stigma attached to him...He normally wasn't sought after but instead scouts would look under his fingernails as to why he didn't come out earlier.

The Vesey UFA courtship it is a sign the entire league needs a redo on how the salary cap is handled.

That's the main reason a bunch of teams were after Vesey...Teams up against the cap or that figure they are going to be regular playoff participants have to look at Vesey as a risk worth taking. It's a way to possibly get an effective roster player for modest money and be able to kick the salary cap implications down the road for awhile.

The NHL needed to do something with lifetime contracts etc and to to try to level the playing field some but....They overcompensated and the consequences to big market teams is too severe.
- Al

I agree this "Vesey play" is a symptom there is something clearly wrong.

Hmmm. Calling the character of NHL players into question....

Something about glass houses comes to mind.
- magmoo

Yeah, because I do stuff like that in stairwells.

I expect Hudler to sign with the Hawks by Monday. Probably for less than he would have cost other teams.

He's probably the better fit anyways. He will step right into a top 6 role and be productive.
Vesey still has question marks and would have been a headache in 2 years anyways when he tries to hit a homerun on his 2nd deal.
Hudler will be happy to be a team guy and win a cup, rather than thinking about his own stat line.
- Vanoxy

Looks like he's heading to Vancouver, at least that's what I just heard. Never know until the deal is signed though

Nice analogy. .. A predetermined scheme (a play) Dmen to know where to get a puck to and forwards to know where to be determined by where they gain possession in their zone whether it be the right or left side or the middle. And like you I watched this a few times and thought the Pens were a bit lucky but when support always followed close by I too realized this ain't no accident

A few things I loved as I watched this. ....

1) Yes you are technically giving up possession by throwing it into an area or to a man that's covered but what I really liked was a support forward coming with his hair on fire. If the target forward could not gain possession he 50/50 the thing or simply pushed it forward or to an area allowing the support to get the loose puck with speed going forward and he was followed by another support forward.

2) It also allowed the Pens to always seemingly out number the puck as most times the other opposing Dman is hesitant to come all the way over to help and leave a huge amount of ice open and with no help. That left one Dman to deal with the target forward and the support forward that was advancing.

3) If you give up possession you are BEHIND the puck and don't get caught with an odd man rush the other way and give it up 150 feet from your net.

4) The common denominator in all of this is speed and always always pushing the thing forward applying pressure whether you have the puck or not.

Man that was fun to watch. Speed, speed, speed and more speed. Pressure, pressure, pressure and more pressure.

That is thinking outside the box and working with what you have.
- Mr Ricochet

The Hawks really were the first team to utilize the "motion" offense whereby defensemen are always moving...Certainly can be tough to defend against. but also difficult to master.

Need dmen that can not only skate but that can pass really well, and every forward needs to be in the correct spot. Otherwise the odd man breaks against will kill you.

Looks like he's heading to Vancouver, at least that's what I just heard. Never know until the deal is signed though
- John Jaeckel

If that's the case it's a money issue and a fat check that can't be passed up.

Looks like he's heading to Vancouver, at least that's what I just heard. Never know until the deal is signed though
- John Jaeckel

If that does happen, do the Hawks go the Fleischman route or do they make a trade to obtain a more legit player?

Looks like he's heading to Vancouver, at least that's what I just heard. Never know until the deal is signed though
- John Jaeckel

WoW. Not good news. Hawks just don't have the offensive fire power yet. I think Bowman may need to explore a trade.

WoW. Not good news. Hawks just don't have the offensive fire power yet. I think Bowman may need to explore a trade.
- kwolf68

Maybe a Svedberg for Reid Boucher style trade

I read an interview Vesey gave in which he said that with the NYR he wasn't expected to be the "savior." Maybe the opening in the Blackhawks top 6 was too much pressure for the kid. To JJ's point about the NYR having room for a second contract, I can see why that would be appealing too. Nash's contract expires in two years just in time for Vesey's and Hayes' second contracts.

Ok, moving on. I don't blame the kid and I'm glad the Blackhawks made a hard sell.

Hoping for Hudler. Hoping for cheap. Wouldn't mind adding Fleischmann too on a TO.
- matt_ahrens

Hayes is starting his 2nd contract this season.

Maybe a Svedberg for Reid Boucher style trade
- ikeane

I agree. Actually a nice call here. Having sent out Larson maybe the Devils have some need to add to their Defensive core.

The Hawks really were the first team to utilize the "motion" offense whereby defensemen are always moving...Certainly can be tough to defend against. but also difficult to master.

Need dmen that can not only skate but that can pass really well, and every forward needs to be in the correct spot. Otherwise the odd man breaks against will kill you.
- Al

Think I'm taking a 10 yr old to Hawthorne tonight for his first taste of what losing money feels like!!

No Al, I'm talking about exiting your own zone not about handling the puck in the attack zone. With solid to elite Dmen you can hopefully exit your zone with precision but with a group like PITT had Sullivan IMO devised a scheme for the less skilled or experienced Dmen to just chip to areas and have forwards "crash" that area to hopefully advance the puck "until" they could control it. If they can't control it at least it got out of their own zone and you instead turned it over 125-150 feet from your goalie with 5 men behind the puck. .....Kinda hit the reset button with less risk.

As far as the Hawk motion offense in the attack zone Coture mentions that in the link I provided as few posts up. This one: http://www.theplayerstrib...l-elite-defensemen-top-5/

As of now, the d-corps and goaltending are in good shape. However, the forward lines have only 6 spots spoken for:

??-19-81
72-15-88
??-16-??
??-??-??

I'm pretty sure one of those spots will be filled by Dejardins, but we'not sure where. Panik will probably get a lot of playing time, but will it be at 1LW or 4RW or maybe just about every open spot. I'm sure Tootoo and Mashinter will get some games to sate Q's neanderthal gene (or is it Toews' neanderthal gene?) but hopefully it's one or the other rather than both in the same game. Then there's all the "kids", both the one's already having had a few games in the NHL (Hinostroza, Hartman, Kero, to name a few) and the newbies (Schmaltz, Motte, McNeill, Lundberg).

Sheesh! There's a lot of work remaining to be done.