There was always something about seeing one of Eric Desjardins or Kimmo Timonen score. There was always a good feeling that came from it. They both played the game the right way, didn't score every night, so when they scored, it really felt like they were being rewarded.

I have history on my side and a three blog post explaining my point and and giving references to national and local articles to support it. A bibliography if you will. Mostly because I get tired of having this same sad argument with people who just love the guy for one playoff run and really haven't paid that much attention to his career as a whole.
- mayorofangrytown

It has zero to do with loving the guy. I wouldn't label him as one of my favorite players. I just think it's baseless hogwash to call him a "all about me"guy.

Or your coach who lost his wife and had already lost his job just so you can feel better about yourself after not showing up for two months.
- mayorofangrytown

Not sure why you cherry pick primeau and recchi. The whole team had it out. Could it have been handled differently? Maybe. It went on all year I'm sure they were at their breaking point as a group with dumb media questions about why they sucked

I remember Primeau as a well liked and effective captain. I think he believed he was standing up for his teammates when he made those comments about Barber. It was tough and awkward situation with the death of Barbers wife. Primeau was not the only player to complain about Barber. I remember Boosh and Tochett being pretty critical too. The fact remains that Barber was not a good NHL coach.

I remember Primeau, Kapanen, Brashear, Roenick, LeClair, Desjardins, Amonte and Recchi being buddies. I remember the youth looking up to them. If you weren't apart of the "in crowd", you didn't last. Cough Ceckmanek cough.

It has zero to do with loving the guy. I wouldn't label him as one of my favorite players. I just think it's baseless hogwash to call him a "all about me"guy.
- MJL

I'll take all the years prior to Hitch and you can stand on the two after he got here when Primeau was the best third line center in the game. I'm looking at my base and yours and your platform seems a little tiny.

I agree, and there's no guarantee that Ghost can repeat what he did last season, and he'll likely never be an "all situations" type of player.

That said, the dynamic that he displayed last year is something that I don't think I've ever seen. The way he aggressively plays defense and can anticipate a play and turning it into offense is something that I have never seen from a Flyers' defenseman.

Granted, I never got to see The Beast play in his prime, and it's true that one of the other big 3 (big 4) could go on to be better, which I hope is that case. But right now, for me, Shayne Gostisbehere makes the list because of the dynamic that he brought and the impact it had on his team is something I haven't seen since Eric Lindros in 92/93.
- jmatchett383

I agree with ghost being up there. People don't judge karlson or Subban because they are not all situation defenseman. Quite the contrary. Why this board feels like if ghost doesn't turn into doughty he's a 2nd pairing guy or simply average or expendable. Granted he would have to continue his rookie pace for years. But there is nothing to say he couldn't do that.

I also think the additions of healthy mdz, provorov, Sanheim will only help ghost long term. And I can't wait to see it. Teams will have to account for 5 skaters in the offensive zone at all times. The space that guys like ghost G jake will have will be incredible cause you can't focus on just one. I smile everytime I think about what it could be.

I agree with ghost being up there. People don't judge karlson or Subban because they are not all situation defenseman. Quite the contrary.
- Tfaehner

I mean they are all situation defensemen. PK and Karlsson see among or the hardest competition on their teams. Subban is on his team's top PK unit. Karlsson is used more like a 4/5 on Ottawa's PK, but surprise surprise he is the best penalty killer on their team. Ottawa had the worst PK in the NHL, and they chose to use the other d men over Karlsson. That's not his fault. Even if they did do well, he'd be better off utilized elsewhere. But he CAN play every situation and do it well.

Anyway, I bet Ghost COULD play all situations and type minutes if it was asked of him and knock it out of the park. It just comes down to what's best for the team. I certainly wouldn't mind a Provy-Ghost top pair in a couple years.

Will Ivan Provorov be a top pair defenseman? Yes
Will Samuel Morin be a top pair defenseman? Yes
Will Shayne Gostisbehere be a top pair defenseman? Yes
Will Travis Sanheim be a top pair defenseman? Yes
Will Radko Gudas be a top pair defenseman? Yes
Will Phillip Myers be a top pair defenseman? Yes
Is Michael Del Zotto a top pair defenseman for a Cup Contender? Yes

I don't think all of this is realistic but this is what I've learned all summer.

Now I apologize to those who were deeply hurt by my ranking of Shayne Gostisbehere so low but do I believe he's capable of defending offensive freaks like Sidney Crosby, Alex Ovechkin and Joe Thornton on a nightly basis in a top pair role by using his speed, puck skill and offensive ability alone? The answer IMO is No, especially with Gudas as his partner. I think we have guys coming in through the pipeline who are more built for these assignments.

Maybe some people are willing to get carried away. I'm not.

Face it amigo, to kids, we ARE silly old men!
- BiggE

Probably. But it's nice to afford decent scotch.

Looking forward to pouring one out with some of you miscreants this season if we can do a meetup or something.

Carolina named him captain to put pressure on him to resign. The owner invested a lot in him and wanted to build the team around him. You can look at the mess that turned into without too much effort including offering him everything he initially asked for and him telling them he was never playing for the Hurricanes again.

Hitch wasn't a dumb guy. Take the guy who led the insurrection and make him the captain. With his history with the past two franchises firmly in everyone's mind and him now being labeled a coach killer that off season he was lucky he was still in Philadelphia. He needed a change in both his game and his attitude and hitch game him an opportunity many wouldn't have. You can find all of that onlne too.

So being a captain doesn't always mean you're the best guy for the job.
- mayorofangrytown

What Hitch did with Primeau was make him a shutdown guy and gave him the "C". In terms of lineup position, he got demoted, really.

It was a smart move by Hitch.

There was always something about seeing one of Eric Desjardins or Kimmo Timonen score. There was always a good feeling that came from it. They both played the game the right way, didn't score every night, so when they scored, it really felt like they were being rewarded.
- roenick97

To me, Rico and Kimmo were beyond scoring and score sheet stuff.

They held it down during parts of the game where it wasn't sexy to hold it down. I don't have the numbers, but I'm guessing they would be #fancystat darlings in their heyday.

To me, Rico and Kimmo were beyond scoring and score sheet stuff.

They held it down during parts of the game where it wasn't sexy to hold it down. I don't have the numbers, but I'm guessing they would be #fancystat darlings in their heyday.
- johndewar

Rico is the best most solid all around flyer defenseman I've ever seen

Probably. But it's nice to afford decent scotch.

Looking forward to pouring one out with some of you miscreants this season if we can do a meetup or something.
- johndewar

Absolutely!!

Rico is the best most solid all around flyer defenseman I've ever seen
- Just5

Mark Howe was better. He was just as good as Rico defensively and much better offensively

Mark Howe was better. He was just as good as Rico defensively and much better offensively
- BiggE

- bmeltzer

You can argue tween Rico and Kimmo for #2 on the Flyers all time best D list, but Howe is far and away number one. Case closed

I'll take all the years prior to Hitch and you can stand on the two after he got here when Primeau was the best third line center in the game. I'm looking at my base and yours and your platform seems a little tiny.
- mayorofangrytown

There is no platform before the Hitchcock years, to suggest that Primeau was an all about me player. So even if mine seems a little tiny, it's still bigger than what you're offering to support the opinion you have.

You can argue tween Rico and Kimmo for #2 on the Flyers all time best D list, but Howe is far and away number one. Case closed
- BiggE

Yea, it's not close really.

There is no platform before the Hitchcock years, to suggest that Primeau was an all about me player. So even if mine seems a little tiny, it's still bigger than what you're offering to support the opinion you have.
- MJL

I'm with you. I don't see the selfishness in his game or personality.

To me, Rico and Kimmo were beyond scoring and score sheet stuff.

They held it down during parts of the game where it wasn't sexy to hold it down. I don't have the numbers, but I'm guessing they would be #fancystat darlings in their heyday.
- johndewar

This is why I wear my 37 jersey to many games still with head held high. Those games would be going poorly for a shift or two and Rico would step on the ice and BOOM the game slowed down and started to turn to the Flyers looking better.

Kimmo, Howe, and Pronger did the same thing. It's amazing what a true number one defenseman does.

You can argue tween Rico and Kimmo for #2 on the Flyers all time best D list, but Howe is far and away number one. Case closed
- BiggE

a thousand times this!

Will Ivan Provorov be a top pair defenseman? Yes
Will Samuel Morin be a top pair defenseman? Shutdown defensemam
Will Shayne Gostisbehere be a top pair defenseman? Yes
Will Travis Sanheim be a top pair defenseman? No I think he will be above average in all areas defenseman. But his skating length and puck moving will make him a valuable asset.
Will Radko Gudas be a top pair defenseman? Lol who actually said this he's third pairing. But a pretty good third pairing if he continues end of season trend.
Will Phillip Myers be a top pair defenseman? No. His career peak would likely be that of Morin as a long shutdown defenseman.
Is Michael Del Zotto a top pair defenseman for a Cup Contender? No but atm he's our best all around defenseman. And I believe a strong 2nd pairing

I don't think all of this is realistic but this is what I've learned all summer.

Now I apologize to those who were deeply hurt by my ranking of Shayne Gostisbehere so low but do I believe he's capable of defending offensive freaks like Sidney Crosby, Alex Ovechkin and Joe Thornton on a nightly basis in a top pair role by using his speed, puck skill and offensive ability alone? The answer IMO is No, especially with Gudas as his partner. I think we have guys coming in through the pipeline who are more built for these assignments.

Maybe some people are willing to get carried away. I'm not.
- roenick97

I am not that fan. I don't believe most of what was posted above and I corrected it from my stance. I just don't get how this forum gives ghost so much hate after 60 games. He could very well be the next pk and karlson. (Who had 120 minutes and 60 minutes of pk time last year). And who I would not personally trust to take tough shifts against other teams top lines. But nobody be lives those guys to be 2nd 3rd pairing players. Why is ghost ? Now he could fall back to Earth and have a career like Mark Streit. Which there also would be nothing wrong with. But nobody will know until it happens. And to say it's not possible is ridiculous.

I am not that fan. I don't believe most of what was posted above and I corrected it from my stance. I just don't get how this forum gives ghost so much hate after 60 games. He could very well be the next pk and karlson. (Who had 120 minutes and 60 minutes of pk time last year). And who I would not personally trust to take tough shifts against other teams top lines. But nobody be lives those guys to be 2nd 3rd pairing players. Why is ghost ? Now he could fall back to Earth and have a career like Mark Streit. Which there also would be nothing wrong with. But nobody will know until it happens. And to say it's not possible is ridiculous.
- Tfaehner

I won't say Ghost isn't able to get to those levels but even PK and EK were skewered early in their careers. When you are a defenseman and you got a hole in your defensive game you will get skewered until you prove the offensive skill will offset that hole. It takes longer than 60 games to offset that. I'm of the wait and see approach with Ghost. I love what he brings but he's walking a fine line of 2nd and 3rd pair for me right now. Provorov and Sanheim on the other hand tend to project to top pair guys to me which bumps Ghost to 2nd pair for me. I would love to see top 2 pairs of Provorov-Sanheim and Morin-Ghost in 2-3 years. But it takes patience and time and they need to earn those spots.

I won't say Ghost isn't able to get to those levels but even PK and EK were skewered early in their careers. When you are a defenseman and you got a hole in your defensive game you will get skewered until you prove the offensive skill will offset that hole. It takes longer than 60 games to offset that. I'm of the wait and see approach with Ghost. I love what he brings but he's walking a fine line of 2nd and 3rd pair for me right now. Provorov and Sanheim on the other hand tend to project to top pair guys to me which bumps Ghost to 2nd pair for me. I would love to see top 2 pairs of Provorov-Sanheim and Morin-Ghost in 2-3 years. But it takes patience and time and they need to earn those spots.
- dragonoffrost

Sanheim projects that he can play d based on size speed.. his attributes. Anyone whose watched him can tell you his defensive deficiencies are still a huge problem and a way from being pro level. Ghost most of his is from how under sized he is. He could gain to his frame and learn from kimmo on how to win those board battles. But 5 on 4 getting tossed like a ragdoll dont work. Excitement over Sanheim monster years in juniors has clouded some brains over him. He has high end talent and attributes but he's probably furthest away from the nhl of our top prospects. Bill has mentioned these things several times as has other reliable sources but nobody wants to hear that. Ghost is an NHL defenseman already. And when injuries got really bad last year he played some pk and was trusted to play final minutes of games during our stretch run.