Id love to have heard your opinion on him a few months ago when he was still in a habs sweater. Boston fans were the biggest Subban haters in the league. Not to mention all the racist slurs against him after the 2014 playoffs.
- maxbart5

Right. Like Habs fans don't have any idiots? Did you appreciate the Habs fans who decided to boo our National anthem?

I always loved Subban. A year ago, I said Subban was a star and he'd be the only Habs player I would take on the Bruins. I'll say the same for Sergachev now. I am unbiased.

but man did we have such an entertaining series. remember the last game between the pens and flyers before the playoffs when the first period took like 2 hours because almost everyone was sent off for some sort of penalty? I think there was like 178 penalty minutes in the first alone and each team had like 13 guys on the bench
- bulet13

All that's needed is a Pens-Flyers game with Dennis Wideman present. That way the refs would get their asses kicked too

Good points. We also are arguing over a set of players who are so close in terms of talent and contributions that it all comes down to personal preference.

I prefer Muzzin because I think he brings a bit more offense and creativity to his game. Perhaps you feel Doughty 'controls' the game better. You watch them more so I'll cede this one to you - but again, it's like trying to say who is better between Mozart and Bach.
- James_Tanner

Indeed. At this level it all comes down to what quality of "good" tickles your fancy.

Is it the offensive stalwartism of Karlsson or Josi?

The more defensive, puck management game of Doughty or Hedman?

The all around play of a Subban or Keith?

It really just depends on your preference. I think people can forget that with us "Numbers" guys. We still have personal preferences of styles!

All that's needed is a Pens-Flyers game with Dennis Wideman present. That way the refs would get their asses kicked too
- DeflatedPucks

it just doesnt feel right without scotty hartnell and matt cooke

December on, Letang was the best defenseman in the league last year.

Subban is a fantastic player and has had a better individual career than Letang up until this point. Health was probably a factor in that, but facts are facts. Up until last year I certainly would have agreed Subban was the better player. Now I believe if Letang stays on the ice he's a top 3 defenseman in the league. Like I said, December on, Letang was putting up Karlsson production with Doughty like shot suppression.

My take is a hot one, but someone had to make it.
- Victoro311

Points for Letang are a lot easier than for Karlsson. I'm still guessing Karlsson is the better offensive player. But I'd put Letang number 2. karrlson doesn't have crosby, malkin, hbk playing offense with him. At even strength though they may be closer as Letang isn't a big PP point producer.

Would be interesting to see who was better if Karlsson had better teammates and Letang had 2-3 years of good health to hit his peak.

1. Karlsson
2. Doughty
3. Keith
4. Hedman
5. OEL

letang and pk are a lot closer than you would think. but ye Letang is not top 5. IF he played a full season he would be top 5 but ye with pens injury luck I don't see that happening. but people should really stop underestimating Letang
- martox

Depends entirely how you phrase the question. In the SCF with Letang healthy name 5 defenseman you would replace him with. I can't say anyone with certainty. Subban/karlsson are about the only 2 I'd consider.

Points for Letang are a lot easier than for Karlsson. I'm still guessing Karlsson is the better offensive player. But I'd put Letang number 2. karrlson doesn't have crosby, malkin, hbk playing offense with him. At even strength though they may be closer as Letang isn't a big PP point producer.

Would be interesting to see who was better if Karlsson had better teammates and Letang had 2-3 years of good health to hit his peak.
- sditulli

I'd put safe money on Karlsson. That guy is just outrageous. Its sad to see incredible stars buried on mediocre teams. Also feel that way about Schnieder in NJ. For my money, he's the best goalie in the league right now.

My top 5 btw:
1. Scuderi Scuderi Scuderi
2. Justin schultz
3. Adam Larsson
4. Derek England
5. Adam Larsson again

Obviously there is a line of reason you have to kind of pay mind to if you are placing a universal tag on someone. Take a step back and say, okay, I love watching this guy play, does he really match up both eye test wise and numbers wise to the top level defensemen?

I find myself in the same boat with Jake Muzzin. There are those who claim he is Norris worthy. I wouldn't go that far. I think he deserves a fair bit more recognition than he gets (Or at least used to) but you do have to temper going all in on one or the other (Eye test v Numbers) in an effort to make the best informed decisions!

Side note, I need to watch some more video on Ristolainen. Buffalo has a real good one there.
- Jason_Lewis

This is where the problem lies IMO with some people who analyze players. There is too much info to cherry pick from. An opinion will always start with some sort of bias, whether its from watching, or looking at numbers. So it becomes what info can I use to back up my original bias?

JJ putting in a hawks player is the biggest shocker of the summer
- bulet13

Yeah, that Keith guy. He blows.

Right. Like Habs fans don't have any idiots? Did you appreciate the Habs fans who decided to boo our National anthem?

I always loved Subban. A year ago, I said Subban was a star and he'd be the only Habs player I would take on the Bruins. I'll say the same for Sergachev now. I am unbiased.
- Bruiniak

You're one of the most biased poster on this site.

People can't tell if you're trolling or serious half the time.

I honestly still can't.

You can make a case for Subban being #2 so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt but considering your history on this site, it'll take alot more for people to take you seriously claiming you're "unbiased".

Cheers.

I'm not being militant. My first couple of posts were saying that I understood why he wasn't on anyone's lists because he hasn't been able to stay on the ice long enough to prove it. I understand its a hot take right now, I'm just throwing my opinion out there and saying maybe people will agree with me if he plays 70+ games next year. Saying that he was the best defenseman from December on last year isn't an outlandish claim if you look at the numbers, but its certainly too small of a sample size to get really up in arms if people don't agree with me.
- Victoro311

Letang is top 5!!! Probably top 3!!! The Pens don't come close to a cup with out him last season. His Points per game were as good as anyone in the league of d last year after November. I don't get the animosity towards him, Its probably because he plays on the team that is most hated.

It's not that he sucks so much as him being the only one of four to list him, and saying that he's either the best or second best in the league. He's still a great defenseman, but I personally wouldn't say he's a top-2.
- jmatchett383

Yep, two Norrises and a Smythe in the last five years. He needs to be put down. Pure homerism.

Yeah, that Keith guy. He blows.
- John Jaeckel

10 pages later glad i'm still making an impact <3

never said he blows. just dont think he's in the top 5 of the league

Doughty/Karlsson
Hedman
Subban
Letang

Yes, it sure does carry weight.

Every single year, the Sens get scored on in bunches with him on the ice. They were a top 10 team in terms of goals against without him on the ice this year. They were far, far worse than even Edmonton, the worst defensive team in the entire league, with him on the ice.

This happens year, after year, after year.

You think that's just coincidence?
- prock

You do realize that there is 6 def. on a team right ? LOL

Yeah, that Keith guy. He blows.
- John Jaeckel

yes.....saying a player isn't a top 5 d-man in the league is EXACTLY the same as saying he blows.

Yep, two Norrises and a Smythe in the last five years. He needs to be put down. Pure homerism.
- John Jaeckel

Come on John.

I like Keith, he's a great player and you can obviously have him in a top 5 without anyone calling you a homer. Imo at least.

But I'm sure you can see people making a case for other players to replace him in the top 5 as well.

Yep, two Norrises and a Smythe in the last five years. He needs to be put down. Pure homerism.
- John Jaeckel

some younger guys have caught up to, and in the opinion of most, passed keith in terms of overall ability (hedman, OEL, doughty, karlsson, subban, etc)............you act like people are saying he's a plug who should be in the ECHL.

You're one of the most biased poster on this site.

People can't tell if you're trolling or serious half the time.

I honestly still can't.

You can make a case for Subban being #2 so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt but considering your history on this site, it'll take alot more for people to take you seriously claiming you're "unbiased".

Cheers.
- Scabeh

I had said that I would no longer answer your posts given that you insult people instead of answering them but I'll answer this one.

It's funny that on this site, as soon as you have a different opinion, you are considered a troll. I also find it funny that people blasted me for saying Bergeron was one of the top centers in the game yet quite a few writers on this site put him 3rd on their list. But hey, I'm just a troll. It's fine.

I had said that I would no longer answer your posts given that you insult people instead of answering them but I'll answer this one.

It's funny that on this site, as soon as you have a different opinion, you are considered a troll. I also find it funny that people blasted me for saying Bergeron was one of the top centers in the game yet quite a few writers on this site put him 3rd on their list. But hey, I'm just a troll. It's fine.
- Bruiniak

For what it's worth, I actually defended you when you posted about Bergeron and Kev "blasted you". But most of the time, you're beyond defending.

Your opinion on Subban is more than defendable here but you should be able to understand our skepticism of you being "always a fan" considering how much you seem to hate every single Habs player while putting Bruins one on a pedestal everytime.

I just don't take you very seriously unfortunately.

I'm done with this, dont wanna ruin the thread.

Yep, two Norrises and a Smythe in the last five years. He needs to be put down. Pure homerism.
- John Jaeckel

you mean homerism like putting toews at 1 and crosby at 2 and saying this about crosby when comparing them? "Doesn't have quite as many skins on the wall as Toews, except for scoring."

Toews:
- 3 Stanley cups
-1 Conn smyth
-1 Selke trophy
-1 Mark messier

Crosby:
-2 Stanley Cups
-2 Art Ross
-2 Hart
-3 Ted Lindsay
-1 Conn Smyth
-1 Rocket Richard
-1 Mark messier reward

oh and if you care about espy best player award (I don't) toews have 1 and crosby has 7

Come on John.

I like Keith, he's a great player and you can obviously have him in a top 5 without anyone calling you a homer. Imo at least.

But I'm sure you can see people making a case for other players to replace him in the top 5 as well.
- Scabeh

Well, in fairness, people are basically ripping him for having Keith in there at all.

I bet a year ago Subban wouldn't have made any of these guys' lists?? He'd still be a selfish, defensive liability who couldn't crack Team Canada. Funny how this all changed all of a sudden?? Hmmm.....wonder why???
- Snots33_77

The constant "Subban is the best D man in the league" from Habs fans probably won a lot of people over