karlsson checks off all the same boxes Weber does. The difference is that Karlsson is still good, and Weber is on the decline since '14. Put Karlsson on a better team, and you really don't think his GA will be more in line with his shot suppression?

But hey, Weber isn't your problem now.
- Blackstrom2

He had his best offensive season in 2013-2014.

He had his third best last year, while having 20 goals and still being a god damn physical beast.

That's one slow decline....

1 year ago Weber would be on everyone's top 10 list... if not top 5 now you can't find him anywhere for some reason....

My opinion has not changed, he's still one of the best out there.

I still wouldn't have made that trade for Subban though.

He should be on Team Canada for sure
- teamvanek

he is, thankfully. his snub from the Olympics was disgusting

Yes, he sacrifices defense for offense. to the point that goals against SKYROCKET with him on the ice. the goals against per 60 when up higher with him on the ice, for the Sens, than almost every Dman in the entire league.
- prock

How about the goals for per 60 with him on the ice, for the Sens?

Again, by my eye test alone, his ability to play defense isn't the issue, it's more his chance taking to create offense. Yes, it results in more goals against, but it also results in a ton more goals for.

So, anyone watching Waterpolo?
- BatFan88

oh yeah

In what world is Letang better than Subban? Subban is better in every aspect of the game.
- Bruiniak

December on, Letang was the best defenseman in the league last year.

Subban is a fantastic player and has had a better individual career than Letang up until this point. Health was probably a factor in that, but facts are facts. Up until last year I certainly would have agreed Subban was the better player. Now I believe if Letang stays on the ice he's a top 3 defenseman in the league. Like I said, December on, Letang was putting up Karlsson production with Doughty like shot suppression.

My take is a hot one, but someone had to make it.

He had his best offensive season in 2013-2014.

He had his third best last year, while having 20 goals and still being a god damn physical beast.

That's one slow decline....

1 year ago Weber would be on everyone's top 10 list... if not top 5 now you can't find him anywhere for some reason....

My opinion has not changed, he's still one of the best out there.

I still wouldn't have made that trade for Subban though.
- Scabeh

I'm talking shot suppression. If this is about offense and tangle points, then Weber wouldn't even be discussed right now and Karlsson would be anointed king. But we were talking about goals against and shot supression.

December on, Letang was the best defenseman in the league last year.

Subban is a fantastic player and has had a better individual career than Letang up until this point. Health was probably a factor in that, but facts are facts. Up until last year I certainly would have agreed Subban was the better player. Now I believe if Letang stays on the ice he's a top 3 defenseman in the league. Like I said, December on, Letang was putting up Karlsson production with Doughty like shot suppression.

My take is a hot one, but someone had to make it.
- Victoro311

but can Letang get a puck past BryzWALLov's glove in a playoff series in 2012? case closed

Obviously 1% is absurdly low, however, you should look at the players who increase there teammates shooting %. The top 5 includes players like Crosby, Hudler etc. Maybe Kadri just isn't really that good
- sbroads24

It is possible, but shooting percentage fluctuates wildly.

During that time I read an article, I think it was Sportsnet from Steve Burtch, or maybe it was a series of tweets, anyways, he did the math and showed that most forwards in the NHL go through one ridiculously low stretch of shooting percentage over their careers.

Voracek had a similar problem last year and Ovechkin also had one that stretched over the end of one season and the beginning of another. The point was it basically happens to everyone but no usually as pronounced as Kadri went through.

oh yeah
- bulet13

I'm loving every second of this. USA!

December on, Letang was the best defenseman in the league last year.

Subban is a fantastic player and has had a better individual career than Letang up until this point. Health was probably a factor in that, but facts are facts. Up until last year I certainly would have agreed Subban was the better player. Now I believe if Letang stays on the ice he's a top 3 defenseman in the league. Like I said, December on, Letang was putting up Karlsson production with Doughty like shot suppression.

My take is a hot one, but someone had to make it.
- Victoro311

PK and EK are in a class of their own. They are dominant. Letang shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.
- Bruiniak

letang and pk are a lot closer than you would think. but ye Letang is not top 5. IF he played a full season he would be top 5 but ye with pens injury luck I don't see that happening. but people should really stop underestimating Letang

If Letang doesn't learn to keep his stick to himself, he might never be healthy again!
Dir-ty.
- Tonybere

That was a really bad moment. Inexcusable, really. It was just as bad as the poop Keith pulled against the Wild player. I agree he should have been suspended, but I'm glad he wasn't.

The suspension following the hit on MarJo was a farce, though.

but can Letang get a puck past BryzWALLov's glove in a playoff series in 2012? case closed
- bulet13

I'm talking shot suppression. If this is about offense and tangle points, then Weber wouldn't even be discussed right now and Karlsson would be anointed king. But we were talking about goals against and shot supression.
- Blackstrom2

I'm not a big advanced stat guy... I usually try to follow my opinion of how much a player impacts a game after watching him play a few times.

Maybe I'm not in the right convo, sorry!

I'm talking shot suppression. If this is about offense and tangle points, then Weber wouldn't even be discussed right now and Karlsson would be anointed king. But we were talking about goals against and shot supression.
- Blackstrom2

Ah yes, shot differentials, the only true way to rate a player as horrible or fantastic.

- Victoro311

that save was worth every penny of that $59 million

that save was worth every penny of that $59 million
- bulet13

Worst. Postseason. Ever.

Thankfully JJ didn't put in Hjalmarsson or Seabrook....

December on, Letang was the best defenseman in the league last year.

Subban is a fantastic player and has had a better individual career than Letang up until this point. Health was probably a factor in that, but facts are facts. Up until last year I certainly would have agreed Subban was the better player. Now I believe if Letang stays on the ice he's a top 3 defenseman in the league. Like I said, December on, Letang was putting up Karlsson production with Doughty like shot suppression.

My take is a hot one, but someone had to make it.
- Victoro311

vic stop showing homerism. letang is not top 5 in the league as long as he keeps getting hurt

That was a really bad moment. Inexcusable, really. It was just as bad as the poop Keith pulled against the Wild player. I agree he should have been suspended, but I'm glad he wasn't.

The suspension following the hit on MarJo was a farce, though.
- Victoro311

If they were Ian Cole and Trevor Van Riemsdyk instead of Kris Letang and Duncan Keith, they'd both be getting 20 games. Keith basically did what Jesse Boulerice did, although he was on his back.

These things become so predictable

Tanner leaves off Doughty, Jason Lewis has him at 2.

How could this possibly be, from 2 stat guys. Do you not get the same iron clad info? Or is there clearly, bias/eye test that you two would blast others for?
- sbroads24

No one is free of a bias, that's true. Tanner doesn't have Doughty on the list, I have him at 2. Predictable, maybe yes, but the reality.

Being a Kings writer I get to see Doughty play every single night, and realize the validity of certain eye test factors, which I generally try to factor into most of my evaluations! Eye test is important. You cannot base every decisions purely on numbers, you can use them to support something but not entirely base your decision on them.

I like Muzzin, I think he's a top 10-15 defender in the league. I wouldn't say top 5 even though numbers put him there. Why? I've watched him play enough.

Numbers are there to help us support, not dictate. There are also a lot of analytics to value, some may take certain things in higher order than others. That is simply the nature of having so much information to work with along with the traditional views of things.

So just because Tanner and I are both "Numbers guys" doesn't mean we will come to the same exact decision because "The numbers say so".

letang and pk are a lot closer than you would think. but ye Letang is not top 5. IF he played a full season he would be top 5 but ye with pens injury luck I don't see that happening. but people should really stop underestimating Letang
- martox

Listen, Letang is good. He made my top 10 but he's not close to Subban talent wise. If Subban was surrounded by the same talented players as Letang has in Pittsburgh, he would score 80 plus points. To score over 60 pts with such a terrible team is unreal. People will see just how good Subban really is in Nashville playing with actual talented players.

vic stop showing homerism. letang is not top 5 in the league as long as he keeps getting hurt
- martox

This.

I think his play in the playoffs showed how great he can be when he IS healthy though.

He's sadly one bad hit away from having to potentially reconsider his career though.

Worst. Postseason. Ever.
- Victoro311

hey man at least you didnt lose to the effing devils...

if it makes you feel any better though that game 1 of our series was b.s. Briere was definitely offsides. Not that I'm upset that the call went our way but I'm generally upset when a ref's mistake ends up costing a team a game

Hey I may love Jake Gardiner, but I'm not gonna look you in the eye and call him a top five defenseman. Though you might want to have a look-see at this badboy

http://public.tableau.com...9BCNJP?:display_count=yes


Then consider who plays on a worse team with worse players and wasn't his teams' first offensive option.
- James_Tanner

1 plays against the elite of the league 5v5...1 doesnt. hmmmm