Yes. Speed. Strength. Puck-handling. Passing. Shot strength. Shot accuracy. etc.

YES!

I'm still shocked that only about 5% of the people somewhat agree with me. And one of those people said "This is obvious to anybody...." But I'm thinking now that might have been sarcasm.

I think you could ask Wayne Gretzky this question right now and he'd agree with me.
- Njuice

I think what you mean is that players these days train a lot more, have better cardio and workout routines. But I can't see a player that might be faster than some, or stronger than some, equalling being better than some of the greatest of all time.

And yes, I gaurantee Gretzky and Orr would say these kids are better. Not because they are, but because these guys are (frank)ing hockey players and have a little bit of modesty ingrained into them.

Yes. Speed. Strength. Puck-handling. Passing. Shot strength. Shot accuracy. etc.

YES!

I'm still shocked that only about 5% of the people somewhat agree with me. And one of those people said "This is obvious to anybody...." But I'm thinking now that might have been sarcasm.

I think you could ask Wayne Gretzky this question right now and he'd agree with me.
- Njuice

Gretzky is an elite passer, playmaker, hockey sense/IQ etc.. in any era. He had the ability to create space for himself because he knew better than anyone what was developing. He controlled that play. A third liner in 2016 does not have these skills.

I think what you mean is that players these days train a lot more, have better cardio and workout routines. But I can't see a player that might be faster than some, or stronger than some, equalling being better than some of the greatest of all time.

And yes, I gaurantee Gretzky and Orr would say these kids are better. Not because they are, but because these guys are (frank)ing hockey players and have a little bit of modesty ingrained into them.
- weirdoh

I'm not just talking about speed and endurance. I'm talking about the little things. The skills. When I was a kid playing AAA it was amazing that I could flip a puck out of my own end and land it on the opposition blue-line. It was AMAZING! Now, every single player should be able to do that.

Back in the day a saucer pass was a rare skill. Now it is expected. How about the old spin-o-rama. Most people couldn't even do a 90's style spin-o-rama. Now players protect the puck by doing half a spino in one direction. THen stop on a dime. Half a spino in the other direction. Every little thing. Controlling pucks. stickhandling, the skills the players have now are way better than a decade ago or two decades ago.

I won't argue about hockey sense or vision. That can only be learned to a certain degree. But don't (frank)ing tell me that William Nylander(who sucks at defensive positioning) can't stickhandle, skate or pass better than Wayne Gretzky. And that's a kid who'll probably be a third liner for at least 2-3 years.

Gretzky is an elite passer, playmaker, hockey sense/IQ etc.. in any era. He had the ability to create space for himself because he knew better than anyone what was developing. He controlled that play. A third liner in 2016 does not have these skills.
- tincup

Yes they do have those skills. But the other players around them don't (frank)ing suck. So it's much more difficult. Remember when "dump and chase" was a serious strategy. I do. It was the 80's and the 90's. Not anymore, nowadays if you have no play you regroup, pass it back to your D, they handle the puck and the team plays pass with the pack anywhere they can keep the puck until an opening to advance exists.

I'm done(hopefully) responding to all the detractors. The skills and talents of an average NHL'er today are greater than a Superstar from 20 years ago. This is simply fact. And nobody wants to accept it. That doesn't mean Doug Gilmour wasn't an amazing player. But Mike Hoffman(and I hate Sens) is better.

I'm done(hopefully) responding to all the detractors. The skills and talents of an average NHL'er today are greater than a Superstar from 20 years ago. This is simply fact. And nobody wants to accept it. That doesn't mean Doug Gilmour wasn't an amazing player. But Mike Hoffman(and I hate Sens) is better.
- Njuice

I'm done(hopefully) responding to all the detractors. The skills and talents of an average NHL'er today are greater than a Superstar from 20 years ago. This is simply fact. And nobody wants to accept it. That doesn't mean Doug Gilmour wasn't an amazing player. But Mike Hoffman(and I hate Sens) is better.
- Njuice

This seems dubious at best.

Instead of convoluting the argument by focussing specifically on Gretzky, ask yourself this. Would the top AHL team today beat an average NHL team in 1990?
- RonPielep

Yes.

It would be a poop-kicking.

I'm not just talking about speed and endurance. I'm talking about the little things. The skills. When I was a kid playing AAA it was amazing that I could flip a puck out of my own end and land it on the opposition blue-line. It was AMAZING! Now, every single player should be able to do that.

Back in the day a saucer pass was a rare skill. Now it is expected. How about the old spin-o-rama. Most people couldn't even do a 90's style spin-o-rama. Now players protect the puck by doing half a spino in one direction. THen stop on a dime. Half a spino in the other direction. Every little thing. Controlling pucks. stickhandling, the skills the players have now are way better than a decade ago or two decades ago.

I won't argue about hockey sense or vision. That can only be learned to a certain degree. But don't (frank)ing tell me that William Nylander(who sucks at defensive positioning) can't stickhandle, skate or pass better than Wayne Gretzky. And that's a kid who'll probably be a third liner for at least 2-3 years.
- Njuice

Ok, I was wrong. I thought maybe I figured what you meant. Oh well.

I'm done(hopefully) responding to all the detractors. The skills and talents of an average NHL'er today are greater than a Superstar from 20 years ago. This is simply fact. And nobody wants to accept it. That doesn't mean Doug Gilmour wasn't an amazing player. But Mike Hoffman(and I hate Sens) is better.
- Njuice

The SUPERSTAR of all time for all reasons not some chump.
Gretzky defined generational talent.
The rest can only measure up to it.
Accept it. Your not old enough to have witnessed much.
Give it a rest.

Yes.

It would be a poop-kicking.
- Aetherial

If this is a reasonable take then Njuice's original and main point is correct and everyone who is laughing at him by focusing specifically on the Gretzky example is simply missing the overall point of this discussion and lazily looking for an easy target to pump their own tires.

Yes.

It would be a poop-kicking.
- Aetherial

I don't know man. I just looked at the roster for the 90/91 Rangers, who were just a bit over .500 that year, so an average NHL team...I think they'd beat this year's Marlies. In a 7 game series they'd probably sweep them.

Like I said Barrie was not going anywhere When Ek says he is on the move Book it He ain't

Stop trying to make an irrelevant tournament even more irrelevant.

I'm done(hopefully) responding to all the detractors. The skills and talents of an average NHL'er today are greater than a Superstar from 20 years ago. This is simply fact. And nobody wants to accept it. That doesn't mean Doug Gilmour wasn't an amazing player. But Mike Hoffman(and I hate Sens) is better.
- Njuice

I'm done(hopefully) responding to all the detractors. The skills and talents of an average NHL'er today are greater than a Superstar from 20 years ago. This is simply fact. And nobody wants to accept it. That doesn't mean Doug Gilmour wasn't an amazing player. But Mike Hoffman(and I hate Sens) is better.
- Njuice

No they don't!

The only difference from now and before is the type of training, the fitness routines, and the change of play.

A superstar then had the skills of a superstar today. Go look at the highlights of Gretzky, Orr, Messier, Esposito, Gilmour, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, etc. They all had flashes of brilliance that is present in today's hockey game.

Edit: Also talent cannot be taught. This makes your arguement even weaker.

I didn't read every word of this debate, so I may be sounding redundant here, however, what about the mention of equipment.

The skates, sticks, padding, etc. have all changed over the last 20, 30, 40 years. How can you accurately argue who is better than who with such a gap of the availability of technology.

I'm sure it was much harder to do "spin o ramas" or saucer passes 30 years ago vs. now. Also, the style of game has also changed. The physicality vs. the finesse of today. You think Scott Stevens would be as effective today as he was twenty years ago? The game changes, the equipment changes; it is just childish to try and debate this. How do you compare two people at anything that never did anything side by side? Impossible

No they don't!

The only difference from now and before is the type of training, the fitness routines, and the change of play.

A superstar then had the skills of a superstar today. Go look at the highlights of Gretzky, Orr, Messier, Esposito, Gilmour, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, etc. They all had flashes of brilliance that is present in today's hockey game.

Edit: Also talent cannot be taught. This makes your arguement even weaker.
- EdmHockeyMan

I think you're right, real talent can't be taught. If you dropped 25 year old Mario into the 2016 NHL, he still has the best hands in the league. Nobody is capable of teaching hands like that, you're either born with it or your not. Same with Gretzky pulling up, finding someone in traffic and in the net. As a Flames fan, I watched Johnny Gaudreau lead the team in scoring when he shoots it 60-70mph max. Literally everyone in the league shoots harder than JH yet he's top 20 in goals.

I didn't read every word of this debate, so I may be sounding redundant here, however, what about the mention of equipment.

The skates, sticks, padding, etc. have all changed over the last 20, 30, 40 years. How can you accurately argue who is better than who with such a gap of the availability of technology.

I'm sure it was much harder to do "spin o ramas" or saucer passes 30 years ago vs. now. Also, the style of game has also changed. The physicality vs. the finesse of today. You think Scott Stevens would be as effective today as he was twenty years ago? The game changes, the equipment changes; it is just childish to try and debate this. How do you compare two people at anything that never did anything side by side? Impossible
- Videoj

True greatest athletes are clear standouts. Gretzky was that. Hockey like all other team sports it changes over time, but gets better. If McDavid was dropped into the league in 1979 he would completely destroy Gretz. If you put Crosby in a game with Rocket Richard they would think he's not human.

Yeah and I bet Mario couldn't even get a job as a waterboy in "today's NHL?" Gretzky had God given abilities to see through 4 guys and make pinpoint passes to exactly where the guy was going to be 2 seconds after he let the pass go. His vision was incredible and unparalleled. He would do just fine in today's NHL, things haven't changed that much. Orr would still be elite. Mario would still be the most talented. Jordan would still dominate the NBA. You act as though they are playing a different game.
- Dcoms

Very little has changed in Basketball since Jordan played game wise. Basketball players have always been athletes, jordan would fit right in todays game and the results would be similar

Take a look at Gretzky highlights. He feasted in an era of chainsmoking defenseman and goalies who could barely cover 1/3rd of the net. Gretzky wouldn't be allotted the time nor the space in todays game that he had back in the 80's and wouldn't have an enforcer to make sure he "Didn't get hit" Take a look at the beating that Crosby takes in a game by game basis, can you see Gretzky taking the same and still scoring at the level he did?

I think Gretzky would be a Martin St Louis type player in todays game. Very good, Very good at making plays and scoring points, NOT a dominant player like the Gretzky we all remember from back in the day

Very little has changed in Basketball since Jordan played game wise. Basketball players have always been athletes, jordan would fit right in todays game and the results would be similar

Take a look at Gretzky highlights. He feasted in an era of chainsmoking defenseman and goalies who could barely cover 1/3rd of the net. Gretzky wouldn't be allotted the time nor the space in todays game that he had back in the 80's and wouldn't have an enforcer to make sure he "Didn't get hit" Take a look at the beating that Crosby takes in a game by game basis, can you see Gretzky taking the same and still scoring at the level he did?

I think Gretzky would be a Martin St Louis type player in todays game. Very good, Very good at making plays and scoring points, NOT a dominant player like the Gretzky we all remember from back in the day
- TheGame316

I've heard several Flames players from the BOA days and to man, they say nobody could catch him, and they tried. Gretzky was illusive, he played smarter than anyone else. I doubt they're making players smarter these days. He obviously wouldn't get 200pts now but he'd still be great.

Very little has changed in Basketball since Jordan played game wise. Basketball players have always been athletes, jordan would fit right in todays game and the results would be similar

Take a look at Gretzky highlights. He feasted in an era of chainsmoking defenseman and goalies who could barely cover 1/3rd of the net. Gretzky wouldn't be allotted the time nor the space in todays game that he had back in the 80's and wouldn't have an enforcer to make sure he "Didn't get hit" Take a look at the beating that Crosby takes in a game by game basis, can you see Gretzky taking the same and still scoring at the level he did?

I think Gretzky would be a Martin St Louis type player in todays game. Very good, Very good at making plays and scoring points, NOT a dominant player like the Gretzky we all remember from back in the day
- TheGame316

I KINDA agree. but gretzky would still be in the scoring race every year and win alot of years. same with Mario. but they wouldn't dominate and crush everything like they did back then. Gretzky, Orr, howe and Mario were todays kind of generational talent (sid, mcdavid, ovie etc) playing in an era where the game was not focused on defense and goalies sucked so much ass AND had horrible gear. Also I agree a tiny bit about the talent lvl between then and now in the way that alot more people around the world play hockey now compared to back then. Gretzky and Mario would be around 100 to 140 pts players in this era every season IF they are healthy. no way that anyone scores 200+ points in one season now.

True greatest athletes are clear standouts. Gretzky was that. Hockey like all other team sports it changes over time, but gets better. If McDavid was dropped into the league in 1979 he would completely destroy Gretz. If you put Crosby in a game with Rocket Richard they would think he's not human.
- Arctic_AARDVARK

Nobody mentions dropping in todays players & play with old tech gear & sticks.
Like to see some wrist/slap shots from latest stars with old ash sticks etc.
Any thoughts how much less talented they would be?

Nobody mentions dropping in todays players & play with old tech gear & sticks.
Like to see some wrist/slap shots from latest stars with old ash sticks etc.
Any thoughts how much less talented they would be?
- Nighthawk

That's what I was trying to highlight. Then I get responded to saying Mcdavid, a guy whose played less games in the nhl than a full season, would be unreal compared to Gretzky. Remarkable logic