I wonder what tanner thinks about Kyle okposo deal? Very good player dont get me wrong but on a very good team he had 45 points playing top line mins and he signed for 6 million a year for 7 years.

I definitely should have clarified. On a good team, LONG TERM I think he caps out as a regular 3C. I personally don't think he sustains a 50-60+ point production for that long.

Or maybe I just have Mike Richards shell shock still. We'll see. 3C was used too loosely on my part.
- Jason_Lewis

We all have Mike Richards shell shock

Although as an unbiased opinion, I have to agree with Tanner on this one. Killorn and Kadri do have more upswing and potential. I see Schenn as an OK second liner, but I do not see the same potential you guys see. He just doesn't seem to elevate his game to warrant 5M$ per season. I was an OK signing for an OK player, but the team could have signed him for 4M$ per season.
- PtotheY

yeah, coming from a guy who's team is still trying to lowball a 30 goal scorer.
cough, Mike Hoffman.

seriously analytics have gotten way out of hand.
This guy was better at 5 on 5, but this guy's di#@ is bigger than this guys, while playing at 4 on 4. At 5 on 5 his shots hit the 3rd glass pane 75% more than the other guy, while the other guy was able to CF% better while holding in a sh&%.

Watch the damn games people.

yeah, coming from a guy who's team is still trying to lowball a 30 goal scorer.
cough, Mike Hoffman.

seriously analytics have gotten way out of hand.
This guy was better at 5 on 5, but this guy's di#@ is bigger than this guys, while playing at 4 on 4.

Watch the damn games people.
- puckhead17

I foresee a future where we don't even watch hockey. The game is played in empty arenas while fans log onto a website probably named #FancyStatDaddy or something and we just watch as the fancy stats change in real-time. Its going to be glorious.

We all have Mike Richards shell shock
- bulet13

I don't. He played well for the Flyers then they dumped him before he fell off a cliff and got Simmonds/Schenn and a pick that helped get Grossmann for a few years and he helped dump the Pronger deal.

I foresee a future where we don't even watch hockey. The game is played in empty arenas while fans log onto a website probably named #FancyStatDaddy or something and we just watch as the fancy stats change in real-time. Its going to be glorious.
- Doc_Sarcasm

and NHL 24 will be nothing but pie charts, and graphs.
Honestly, does this way of thinking make all players turds before this information was compiled? Because how do we know who did what in certain situations while scoring
50 goals in 1982?
Too many people fall in love with this sh*%.

I don't. He played well for the Flyers then they dumped him before he fell off a cliff and got Simmonds/Schenn and a pick that helped get Grossmann for a few years and he helped dump the Pronger deal.
- nastyflyergirl

meanwhile him and carter won 2 cups

I foresee a future where we don't even watch hockey. The game is played in empty arenas while fans log onto a website probably named #FancyStatDaddy or something and we just watch as the fancy stats change in real-time. Its going to be glorious.
- Doc_Sarcasm

These stats definitely have a place in the game and do bring a lot of value to being able to judge a player and analyze what a player contributes.

That said - hockey will never be baseball/moneyball. Advanced stats most definitely have flaws and one of the big downfalls is that a lot of the stats are based of a 5 man unit on the ice and cannot be isolated to a single player.

But to dismiss analytics is silly as they are a great tool in the toolbox.

These stats definitely have a place in the game and do bring a lot of value to being able to judge a player and analyze what a player contributes.

That said - hockey will never be baseball/moneyball. Advanced stats most definitely have flaws and one of the big downfalls is that a lot of the stats are based of a 5 man unit on the ice and cannot be isolated to a single player.

But to dismiss analytics is silly as they are a great tool in the toolbox.
- Joel_Eh

But to make them the true meaning to compare value of one player, to another is bullish&%. Do they take into consideration that player A CF% was better while he played against the oppositions 3rd D pairings, while player B went against the 1st line pairings? I don't know, I look at them, they are very pretty, but ehhhhhhh.
I watch the games.

and NHL 24 will be nothing but pie charts, and graphs.
Honestly, does this way of thinking make all players turds before this information was compiled? Because how do we know who did what in certain situations while scoring
50 goals in 1982?
Too many people fall in love with this sh*%.
- puckhead17

its a balance. Ignoring the additional information we have now is dumb...we can diagnose diseases we couldn't 50 years ago as well but we don't ignore that additional info.

More info is good - using it effectively and knowing its limitations is where a lot of people struggle.

But to make them the true meaning to compare value of one player, to another is bullish&%. Do they take into consideration that player A CF% was better while he played against the oppositions 3rd D pairings, while player B went against the 1st line pairings? I don't know, I look at them, they are very pretty, but ehhhhhhh.
I watch the games.
- puckhead17

But advanced stats do take that into consideration. Quality of competition can be analyzed in addition to a players corsi.

I agree its not the be all and end all but they are definitely useful tools.

These stats definitely have a place in the game and do bring a lot of value to being able to judge a player and analyze what a player contributes.

That said - hockey will never be baseball/moneyball. Advanced stats most definitely have flaws and one of the big downfalls is that a lot of the stats are based of a 5 man unit on the ice and cannot be isolated to a single player.

But to dismiss analytics is silly as they are a great tool in the toolbox.
- Joel_Eh

I am totally not dismissing analytics. I'm poking fun at the slavish devotion to them that has developed in certain quarters. I am also poking fun at those who cherry pick which stat they want to use to advance their argument.

His points have ascended every season, and he scored nearly 60 points as a 24 year old who should just be entering his prime. I really don't see the logic to suggest that he can't maintain that level of production over 4 years in the prime of his career. The Richards comparison doesnt make sense. Richards is what 5-6 years older? Richards production between his 24-28 year old seasons were very strong.

Sorry this was responding to the Jason L comment.

its a balance. Ignoring the additional information we have now is dumb...we can diagnose diseases we couldn't 50 years ago as well but we don't ignore that additional info.

More info is good - using it effectively and knowing its limitations is where a lot of people struggle.
- Joel_Eh

If I need a graph to tell me that Danny Briere didn't kill penalties, because he was never used in that capacity, (or I can plainly see he was usually the last one to back check on his line), well then I don't know hockey. Great offensive player, monster in playoff competition, but I'm sure a certain graph will tear him down somewhere.
There are too many situational examples, opponents skill levels not identified, linemates that were in slumps, etc, that can be argued when one lives on these charts.

I am totally not dismissing analytics. I'm poking fun at the slavish devotion to them that has developed in certain quarters. I am also poking fun at those who cherry pick which stat they want to use to advance their argument.
- Doc_Sarcasm

yah that happens a lot - because there is such a variety of stats collected now you can always find at least one stat to support almost any argument.

meanwhile him and carter won 2 cups
- bulet13

and that wasn't going to happen in philly unless they upgraded the rest of the team with the likes of Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, etc. the flyers had to start rebuilding. that whole they won a cup stuff is so old. complete team makeup plays a large role. Loved them when they were here. Absolutely sold on Richards at the right time. extremely happy with the return of Couturier, Voracek, Cousins, Schenn and Simmonds.

and have a sense of humor

Although as an unbiased opinion, I have to agree with Tanner on this one. Killorn and Kadri do have more upswing and potential. I see Schenn as an OK second liner, but I do not see the same potential you guys see. He just doesn't seem to elevate his game to warrant 5M$ per season. I was an OK signing for an OK player, but the team could have signed him for 4M$ per season.
- PtotheY

If the team could've signed him for 4M, why didn't they? Posts like this make zero sense. He was set to go to arbitration where both sides submitted their figures. Both the Flyers and the Schenn camps figures were over 4M. So what are you basing that they could've signed him to 4M on?

Schenn's offensive numbers last season were closer to first line numbers, than okay 2nd line offensive production.

Tanner - two more years at that price!? You're mad!!! I'm not sure he'll live up to the contract he got. No way I'd want more years on it.

#KadriForHart wasnt a giveaway?
- Doc_Sarcasm

If I need a graph to tell me that Danny Briere didn't kill penalties, because he was never used in that capacity, (or I can plainly see he was usually the last one to back check on his line), well then I don't know hockey. Great offensive player, monster in playoff competition, but I'm sure a certain graph will tear him down somewhere.
There are too many situational examples, opponents skill levels not identified, linemates that were in slumps, etc, that can be argued when one lives on these charts.
- puckhead17

i dont disagree with some of that but if i asked who between Kadri and Killorn plays a better defensive game how would you answer and how would you quantify it?

I'd use relative shot suppression/generation stats with quality of competition, GA differentials, yadda yadda.

Back in the day they'd say +/-...which is a pretty weak stat.

I foresee a future where we don't even watch hockey. The game is played in empty arenas while fans log onto a website probably named #FancyStatDaddy or something and we just watch as the fancy stats change in real-time. Its going to be glorious.
- Doc_Sarcasm

LOL!!!!! The nerds are trying to turn hockey into baseball.

Yes, analytics has a place, but the nerds are going overboard right now. Hopefully the pendulum will swing back to something less, um, #fancy.

yeah, coming from a guy who's team is still trying to lowball a 30 goal scorer.
cough, Mike Hoffman.

seriously analytics have gotten way out of hand.
This guy was better at 5 on 5, but this guy's di#@ is bigger than this guys, while playing at 4 on 4. At 5 on 5 his shots hit the 3rd glass pane 75% more than the other guy, while the other guy was able to CF% better while holding in a sh&%.

Watch the damn games people.
- puckhead17

Lmao. This is the best comment ever. I agree analytics are valued a lot more than they need to be. It's a useful tool but watching the games helps a lot too.

I definitely should have clarified. On a good team, LONG TERM I think he caps out as a regular 3C. I personally don't think he sustains a 50-60+ point production for that long.

Or maybe I just have Mike Richards shell shock still. We'll see. 3C was used too loosely on my part.
- Jason_Lewis

I travel back and forth between TO and Philly many many times a year and have seen Kadri and Schenn in person often. It's fun to make these assessments in the new fantasy sports world of analytics, but in the real hockey world you judge a player by actually watching them in person...

With that said, only on planet Uranus is Kadri as superior player to Schenn. Schenn is a legitimate 25 goal scoring WINGER. HE IS NOT A CENTER. He hits people and is a royal pain the ars to play against. In 2016 - that equates to 5 mill a year folks. They got him for 4 years which makes perfect sense.

Kadri got 27 mill. Schenn got 20.5 mill. That's pretty relevant especially if you are referring to the Mike Richards contract which technically is contradictory to your overall point. Flyers are trying to turn a corner and not give out long term contracts. This is another reflection of that.

Schenn is a 3rd or 4th best winger on a good team. Not saying the Flyers are a good team, but be will help to get them there. Especially since his production improves every year while bouncing around from one line to the next because of his versatility.

Nothing against Kadri as a secondary scoring option. Both contracts seem about right. Comparing the two is kinda asinine, however, since they are different players with varied skill sets.

The only real criticism of Schenn I would say stems from his in ability to mesh with Giroux and his left side. Schenn is prob better suited to play the right side where the Flyers are already loaded.

Lastly, I think that Mike Richards thing kinda worked out for both teams...

I travel back and forth between TO and Philly many many times a year and have seen Kadri and Schenn in person often. It's fun to make these assessments in the new fantasy sports world of analytics, but in the real hockey world you judge a player by actually watching them in person...

With that said, only on planet Uranus is Kadri as superior player to Schenn. Schenn is a legitimate 25 goal scoring WINGER. HE IS NOT A CENTER. He hits people and is a royal pain the ars to play against. In 2016 - that equates to 5 mill a year folks. They got him for 4 years which makes perfect sense.

Kadri got 27 mill. Schenn got 20.5 mill. That's pretty relevant especially if you are referring to the Mike Richards contract which technically is contradictory to your overall point. Flyers are trying to turn a corner and not give out long term contracts. This is another reflection of that.

Schenn is a 3rd or 4th best winger on a good team. Not saying the Flyers are a good team, but be will help to get them there. Especially since his production improves every year while bouncing around from one line to the next because of his versatility.

Nothing against Kadri as a secondary scoring option. Both contracts seem about right. Comparing the two is kinda asinine, however, since they are different players with varied skill sets.

The only real criticism of Schenn I would say stems from his in ability to mesh with Giroux and his left side. Schenn is prob better suited to play the right side where the Flyers are already loaded.

Lastly, I think that Mike Richards thing kinda worked out for both teams...
- joenardonesson

For someone who has spent so much time between TO and Philly, how is it possible that you've missed the fact that Schenn has spent the better portion of his career playing center?

If I need a graph to tell me that Danny Briere didn't kill penalties, because he was never used in that capacity, (or I can plainly see he was usually the last one to back check on his line), well then I don't know hockey. Great offensive player, monster in playoff competition, but I'm sure a certain graph will tear him down somewhere.
There are too many situational examples, opponents skill levels not identified, linemates that were in slumps, etc, that can be argued when one lives on these charts.
- puckhead17

You're on fire today. I agree. The analytics can't be so accurate because hockey is played blisteringly fast, with contact/penalties, and is dependent on the team playing a strategy implemented by a coaching staff. Baseball is player vs pitcher/ball so you can break that down much better. Way too many variables in hockey to argue analytics are very accurate. In my opinion.