James Tanner: PLUS/MINUS: Defending the Taylor Hall Trade + Jake Gardiner's Elite Edition
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- James_Tanner

Here's a question. You use that chart to "defend" or support your Reilly or Muzzin to be superior to Duncan Keith or whoever.

Then you blow out a comment that Bergeron is "superior" to Toews (who actually, I think are mirror images of each other). Where is your "chart" and stats to support that?

MINUS
Including Jennifer Lopez in the same piece as Husker Du and The Replacements.

Just Sayin

Here's a question. You use that chart to "defend" or support your Reilly or Muzzin to be superior to Duncan Keith or whoever.

Then you blow out a comment that Bergeron is "superior" to Toews (who actually, I think are mirror images of each other). Where is your "chart" and stats to support that?
- PatShart

This is already well established. He cherry picks his stats that can support his opinions and completely ignores and discredits the ones that go against.


Jake Gardiner is elite *small print-when playing against bottom 6 competition in the offensive zone

This is already well established. He cherry picks his stats that can support his opinions and completely ignores and discredits the ones that go against.


Jake Gardiner is elite *small print-when playing against bottom 6 competition in the offensive zone
- Iggysbff

"You don't understand nuance." James Tanner.

Jero from earlier I see your point but I think you guys jumped to the wrong conclusion yesterday.
- shack67

That poster is JB, I bet you a million bucks.

Here's a question. You use that chart to "defend" or support your Reilly or Muzzin to be superior to Duncan Keith or whoever.

Then you blow out a comment that Bergeron is "superior" to Toews (who actually, I think are mirror images of each other). Where is your "chart" and stats to support that?
- PatShart

The main reason I think Patrice Bergeron is better than Toews is because in the course of his career, no other player in the league has had a bigger impact on his teammates than Bergeron.

You can make some pretty good arguments that Bergeron, not Crosby, is the best player of the last decade. However, I tend to think that those arguments may underrate pure offensive, however who knows, rating Defense is very difficult and no one has come up with a way to quantify it properly in comparison to offense.

So who knows. What I'm saying is Bergeron and Crosby are a better comparison than Toews.

Needless to say, Bergeron, along with Hossa, is probably the best defensive player in his era by a mile. Then, when you add in how he improves his teamates while still providing roughlty 80% of Crosby's offense, it's not crazy to maybe think Bergeron is more effective and we just overrate offense.

Regardless, Toews is a great player, but just for the WOWYs alone, I don't think you would find too many informed people who aren't blackhawks fans who'd seriously consider him to be Bergeron's equal.

MINUS
Including Jennifer Lopez in the same piece as Husker Du and The Replacements.

Just Sayin
- Fenrir

You liked it.

Nationalism actually unites us. It's a shame it barely exists here in Canada. Maybe that's why you don't even know your neighbours' name here, meanwhile you are friends with you entire neighbourhood in Europe.The real force behind increasing divisiveness is globalism and destruction of the family unit, religion, community, culture and social fabric.

Take my word for it, countries without nationalism are much more divided than countries with.
- domi_legend

Actually it divides us....in the grand scheme of things.
But it is what it is.

You always seem very angry.

The main reason I think Patrice Bergeron is better than Toews is because in the course of his career, no other player in the league has had a bigger impact on his teammates than Bergeron.

You can make some pretty good arguments that Bergeron, not Crosby, is the best player of the last decade. However, I tend to think that those arguments may underrate pure offensive, however who knows, rating Defense is very difficult and no one has come up with a way to quantify it properly in comparison to offense.

So who knows. What I'm saying is Bergeron and Crosby are a better comparison than Toews.

Needless to say, Bergeron, along with Hossa, is probably the best defensive player in his era by a mile. Then, when you add in how he improves his teamates while still providing roughlty 80% of Crosby's offense, it's not crazy to maybe think Bergeron is more effective and we just overrate offense.

Regardless, Toews is a great player, but just for the WOWYs alone, I don't think you would find too many informed people who aren't blackhawks fans who'd seriously consider him to be Bergeron's equal.
- James_Tanner

But why not post that chart that you're so proud of when promoting player x vs player y to support your reasoning?

This is already well established. He cherry picks his stats that can support his opinions and completely ignores and discredits the ones that go against.


Jake Gardiner is elite *small print-when playing against bottom 6 competition in the offensive zone
- Iggysbff

It's not cherry picking to look at the shot prevention which is probably the most important stat besides points for a defenseman.

What I would term 'cherry picking' is bringing up how a player is deployed only when the player being discussed is being rated better than his reputation because of a statistical analysis.

No one mentions how Patrick Kane or Eugene Malkin are two of the most sheltered players of all time. They'll both go into the Hall of Fame without an asterisk that denotes they played behind two of the best players of their era. So it's ridiculous to say it about Gardiner, who, I should point out, played basically the same level of competition as Morgan Rielly last year (or that "first pairing" "second pairing" tends to be a fan construction on teams without obvious star defenseman; so half the teams).

Min 1000 Minutes:

- Gardiner was 20th in CF% last year, ahead of Ekblad, Letang.
- Gardiner was 20th in relative Corsi last year, ahead of Ekblad, Letang, Keith, Ellis, Brodie, Muzzin, Hamonic

- 31st in relative-shots against. Better than Muzzin, Brodie, Klingberg

- Even though Gardiner gains most of his value from defense, he still scored 15 5v5 points on a low scoring team, good for 63rd in the NHL among D. (For context Karlsson had 45).

- 11th lowest PDO among D. Indicating that he was unlucky in a year when he statistically he was among the best in hockey.

- With the exception of the year when the Leafs went on a historic month long goal scoring drought under new coach Peter Horacek, Gardiner has 5 straight 30 point seasons (he had 24 in the Horacek year) Amazingly high and consistent for a guy who's never been the #1 QB option on his team (or played on a good team for that matter).

As far as zone starts go: he split his time nearly equally starting in all three zones.

This a far more even deployment than say Karlsson, who no one says isn't elite because of how he is deployed.

- Jake Gardiner played the 61st hardest competition last year, facing an average CF% of his opponents of 50.89 which means he put up his top 20 Corsi numbers while basically always facing players who themselves usually win the possession battle.

- Though 61st doesn't seem great, he would move up 30 spots if he was 1% point higher, which is less than the margin for error, so that means there are basically only 30 players who played significantly tougher minutes than he did.

- Players who played easier competition last year than Gardiner: Ekholm, Burns, Ellis, Subban, Chara, Keith, Phaneuf, Girardi, Touba, Buff, Weber, Russel.

So basically, I await the apology of anyone who says that I am cherry picking my stats or that Gardiner isn't an elite player. He's clearly in the top 30 NHL D when accounting for offensive and defense. If you weight the defensive parts a bit higher than normal, he rockets up the rankings.

All stats Corisica Hockey. com

But why not post that chart that you're so proud of when promoting player x vs player y to support your reasoning?
- PatShart

Because it's a commonly accepted fact that Bergeron is that good and it wasn't tangential to the post. If you wanted you could look it up yourself. If it's important to my over all point, or I think it's a big deal, or will be questioned, then sure, I'll dig out a chart, but I can't provide a chart for every offhand thing I say.

Because it's a commonly accepted fact that Bergeron is that good and it wasn't tangential to the post. If you wanted you could look it up yourself. If it's important to my over all point, or I think it's a big deal, or will be questioned, then sure, I'll dig out a chart, but I can't provide a chart for every offhand thing I say.
- James_Tanner

Well isn't it a commonly accepted fact that say Duncan Keith is that good and better than say - Jake Gardiner?

I did look it up myself and those two (Toews and Bergeron are relatively close with both a tad better in certain areas)

I'm all for your rants and tangents but if you swear by corsi or analytics to prove some points yet ignore them for others, seems a little hypocritical

And again, I do think Toews is a bit over rated (certainly over paid) while Bergeron is a bit over rated. But they're much in the same class, IMO - Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron - and none of those three in Crosby or Malkin's level.

I just find it interesting that the "well known" (to you, maybe?) that you make a statement and don't list your Corsi bible stats to support it, when maybe they don't.

And again, I do think Toews is a bit over rated (certainly over paid) while Bergeron is a bit over rated. But they're much in the same class, IMO - Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron - and none of those three in Crosby or Malkin's level.

I just find it interesting that the "well known" (to you, maybe?) that you make a statement and don't list your Corsi bible stats to support it, when maybe they don't.
- PatShart

Maybe I'm wrong, I just assumed it was 2016 and everyone knew Bergeron was one of the best of all time.

Jake Gardiner is an elite, #1, top-line defenseman, with an amazing contract.


Dude, set the pipe down slowly and step away from it....

Maybe I'm wrong, I just assumed it was 2016 and everyone knew Bergeron was one of the best of all time.
- James_Tanner

Not sure if you're just trying to be a wise a$$ or trying to have a discussion but go nuts. All hail Bergeron!

Jake Gardiner is an elite, #1, top-line defenseman, with an amazing contract.


Dude, set the pipe down slowly and step away from it....
- bixll

and yet, the comment directly above this one proves I was right.

and yet, the comment directly above this one proves I was right.
- James_Tanner

How??? because a fan from Vegas says something, that proves you correct..

Watch the games FFS.

Heres a little exercise for you Jimmy.

Pull up the hero comparison of Gardiner with Oscar Klefbom.

Virtually identical with Klefbom being slightly better offensively and Gardiner being slightly better defensively.

Now pull up their vollman bubbles. Gardiner is sheltered in both offensive zone starts and weak quality of competition where as Klefbom had far greater quality of competition and much much higher defensive zone starts.

So if Gardiner is " Elite" then I guess Klefbom must be super duper elite top 5 in the league?
- Iggysbff

Zone starts and QoC don't matter to JT.

How??? because a fan from Vegas says something, that proves you correct..

Watch the games FFS.
- bixll

What does me living in Vegas have to do with anything?

How??? because a fan from Vegas says something, that proves you correct..

Watch the games FFS.
- bixll

No man, the long post featuring all of the stats.

It's not cherry picking to look at the shot prevention which is probably the most important stat besides points for a defenseman.

What I would term 'cherry picking' is bringing up how a player is deployed only when the player being discussed is being rated better than his reputation because of a statistical analysis.

No one mentions how Patrick Kane or Eugene Malkin are two of the most sheltered players of all time. They'll both go into the Hall of Fame without an asterisk that denotes they played behind two of the best players of their era. So it's ridiculous to say it about Gardiner, who, I should point out, played basically the same level of competition as Morgan Rielly last year (or that "first pairing" "second pairing" tends to be a fan construction on teams without obvious star defenseman; so half the teams).

Min 1000 Minutes:

- Gardiner was 20th in CF% last year, ahead of Ekblad, Letang.
- Gardiner was 20th in relative Corsi last year, ahead of Ekblad, Letang, Keith, Ellis, Brodie, Muzzin, Hamonic

- 31st in relative-shots against. Better than Muzzin, Brodie, Klingberg

- Even though Gardiner gains most of his value from defense, he still scored 15 5v5 points on a low scoring team, good for 63rd in the NHL among D. (For context Karlsson had 45).

- 11th lowest PDO among D. Indicating that he was unlucky in a year when he statistically he was among the best in hockey.

- With the exception of the year when the Leafs went on a historic month long goal scoring drought under new coach Peter Horacek, Gardiner has 5 straight 30 point seasons (he had 24 in the Horacek year) Amazingly high and consistent for a guy who's never been the #1 QB option on his team (or played on a good team for that matter).

As far as zone starts go: he split his time nearly equally starting in all three zones.

This a far more even deployment than say Karlsson, who no one says isn't elite because of how he is deployed.

- Jake Gardiner played the 61st hardest competition last year, facing an average CF% of his opponents of 50.89 which means he put up his top 20 Corsi numbers while basically always facing players who themselves usually win the possession battle.

- Though 61st doesn't seem great, he would move up 30 spots if he was 1% point higher, which is less than the margin for error, so that means there are basically only 30 players who played significantly tougher minutes than he did.

- Players who played easier competition last year than Gardiner: Ekholm, Burns, Ellis, Subban, Chara, Keith, Phaneuf, Girardi, Touba, Buff, Weber, Russel.

So basically, I await the apology of anyone who says that I am cherry picking my stats or that Gardiner isn't an elite player. He's clearly in the top 30 NHL D when accounting for offensive and defense. If you weight the defensive parts a bit higher than normal, he rockets up the rankings.

All stats Corisica Hockey. com
- James_Tanner

I'm a bit confused by the bold here. So the margin for error only applies to Gardiner bumping him up 30 spots but the players he jumped don't apply in that margin for error?

and yet, the comment directly above this one proves I was right.
- James_Tanner

right about what? Gardiner is about to enter his prime and his best season to date is 31 points.

Is this blog Opposite Day or something? What a bunch of dumb statements. Gardiner is a middle pairing dman on every playoff team. He's not actually very good at defense. The Oilers DO NOT have the best forward group of the salary cap era. None of them have ever made any achievement at the NHL level, none have even been an all star. Rinne is an elite level goalie who has struggled with injuries but when he's healthy he is excellent. And the Preds cannot get Rinne and Bishop under the salary cap. Benn is 26 and the best all around winger in the league, Kucherov is a fine complimentary player but he's no top star. I have forgotten what else you have said that is pure nonsense but I'm sure there was more.