But they were fantastic at keeping the puck in the opponents zone at clutch times during close games, that has to count for something
- flyers4487

Yeah, it gives them a shot at winning a 4th line role this year.

When I look at the lines I see 5 definite top 6 guys. Giroux, Voracek, Couturier, Simmonds & Schenn. For that last top six spot you have a few options: Raffl, Laughton, Weal or maybe Konecny.

For my third line, I'm looking at either Raffl or Laughton as the left winger, Cousins or Laughton as the center and Weise as the RW. Both his production last year and Hextall's comments make it more than clear they see him as a top 9 guy and not a 4th liner.

That leaves Read, Gordon and what is left over: Lyubimov, VandeVelde, Bellemare, Leier, Bardreau, etc. I don't see it as using Read and, say Lyubimov to cover Gordon's flaws, I just see it as how the roster shakes out.

As for whether or not he's an upgrade, VandeVelde and Bellemare were poor possession guys and didn't get anywhere near the heavy D usage that Gordon got, so in replacing one of them alone, I see Gordon as an upgrade
- Jsaquella

I have a feeling you're right about Weise being on the 3rd line. I'd much rather have Read there and Weise on the 4th line.

Yeah, it gives them a shot at winning a 4th line role this year.
- Jsaquella

I mean thats all im saying lol. Eitherway I think the logjam at the bottom 6 at camp will ensure the best players make it, which hopefully generates more goals and stronger possession numbers which would be a big improvement for this team

I have a feeling you're right about Weise being on the 3rd line. I'd much rather have Read there and Weise on the 4th line.
- PhillySportsGuy

Ideally, I'd like completely interchangeable lines as the bottom 6. In other words, where they had two 4th lines last season, I want two 3rd lines this season.

I think people underestimate Weise. He's a pretty neutral possession player(when he gets a lot of OZ starts he has good shot metrics and when he plays a more defensive role his metrics dip) which is why I don't see him on a 4th line or a good fit for Gordon as a linemate. But he's got good size and he's been a pretty consistent guy in terms of shot %

I think guys like Leier and Bardreau will. Martel and Weal need to be in scoring line roles to be effective. Are they going to be good enough to beat out a current guy on one of those lines?
- Jsaquella

does martel kill penalties at all? just using him as an example maybe they should put more skill on that 4th line.

Not sure if those players will be good enough. Will they get enough of a chance to show it? Granted the practices and the like they are going to have to stand out I would think; as well as the games. If they are not good enough then that's interesting.

Or he has him in the AHL haha
- YuenglingJagr

damnit...

Ideally, I'd like completely interchangeable lines as the bottom 6. In other words, where they had two 4th lines last season, I want two 3rd lines this season.

I think people underestimate Weise. He's a pretty neutral possession player(when he gets a lot of OZ starts he has good shot metrics and when he plays a more defensive role his metrics dip) which is why I don't see him on a 4th line or a good fit for Gordon as a linemate. But he's got good size and he's been a pretty consistent guy in terms of shot %
- Jsaquella

I was talking to someone about that lastnight, I think he has a legit chance at 20 goals, and if he hits that, he will be a steal

I was talking to someone about that lastnight, I think he has a legit chance at 20 goals, and if he hits that, he will be a steal
- flyers4487

I think they way they seem to want to use him, 15 isn't out of the question for Weise. I really do think they end up using him a lot like Montreal did. He's going to see PP time on the second unit, may even slide into the top six if Raffl, Laughton or whomever else struggles.

Ideally, I'd like completely interchangeable lines as the bottom 6. In other words, where they had two 4th lines last season, I want two 3rd lines this season.

I think people underestimate Weise. He's a pretty neutral possession player(when he gets a lot of OZ starts he has good shot metrics and when he plays a more defensive role his metrics dip) which is why I don't see him on a 4th line or a good fit for Gordon as a linemate. But he's got good size and he's been a pretty consistent guy in terms of shot %
- Jsaquella

I think Weise is a nice player and I wouldn't be upset with him as a 3rd liner. I just think Read will give Cousins and Laughton more offensive zone time. I feel like Read cleans up a lot of the issues those other two have. I'm not so sure Weise can do that, but I wouldn't be mad if they took a look at it. They can always go back to Read.

I think Weise is a nice player and I wouldn't be upset with him as a 3rd liner. I just think Read will give Cousins and Laughton more offensive zone time. I feel like Read cleans up a lot of the issues those other two have. I'm not so sure Weise can do that, but I wouldn't be mad if they took a look at it. They can always go back to Read.
- PhillySportsGuy

Absolutely. They should have the flexibility to do a lot of things. Hell, maybe the third line ends up as Read-Raffl-Weise.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have a spot. I just think there should be a little more competition for his spot than they've been saying.

I don't know anything about Lyubimov, but using Read to offset Gordon's possession deficiencies would definitely help. I just don't like the idea of using Read as a 4th liner when he's one of the better possession guys on the team. I don't like using Gordon as a top 9 guy because he doesn't do anything offensively, so it's hard for me to envision them together very often.

I've always been in the camp of focusing more on matchups and not zone starts. If the opposing team throws out the 3rd line for an offensive zone face-off, I'm ok with matching Laughton-Cousins-Read against them. I think Giroux was used a little too much based on zone starts (the loss of Couturier certainly had an impact as well).

Like you said though, if Gordon can add value on the PK, then he should have a spot. If not, then there is no reason to play him over a more skilled forward.

I still see the 4th line in the NHL as an area where teams can really exploit others' conservatism. Most teams fill out their 4th lines with passive players who produce no offense. Why not just put more skill down there and take advantage of those 5 minutes each game when 4th liners are matched against each other? I know special teams matter, but I still think those 5 ES minutes each night are there for the taking if some coach/GM is ballsy enough to do it.
- PhillySportsGuy

Adding Gordon is going to add ES minutes in better situations for Giroux.

Absolutely. They should have the flexibility to do a lot of things. Hell, maybe the third line ends up as Read-Raffl-Weise.
- Jsaquella

15 would be great too. I think while on paper the improvements are not much, being able to roll 4 lines will be fantastic under hax system. I hate the when teams try to copy the cup champ, but if there is a lesson to learn from pgh, if you build around your coaches system a team will play alot better then it looks on paper

Absolutely. They should have the flexibility to do a lot of things. Hell, maybe the third line ends up as Read-Raffl-Weise.
- Jsaquella

That would be a very strong 3rd line, but I've always liked Raffl more in the top 6 because his possession abilities work so well with the high scorers. He's also a fully capable LW on a team that desperately needs LWs, so I'm not sure about playing him at center. I'd like to give Cousins a long look at 3C this season as well.

Kind of transitioning to a broader topic here, but I was hoping for a little more consolidation this offseason from Hexy. Maybe moving multiple pieces for a higher end piece (young, skilled forward) or cleaning up the glut in the bottom 6 and bottom pairing.

I know Hexy likes to have young players force their way into the lineup, but it isn't always obvious. What if Streit's Richard doesn't fall off? Does Ghost ever play? He was clearly ready for the NHL, but you never would have known unless he got the opportunity.

I would have preferred leaving a spot on the bottom line and a spot on the bottom pairing open for the best young player. Instead, the young players are forced to kick out an incumbent, which is much harder to do. Especially when Hexy talks about how preseason and camp isn't the best determinate because vets are just trying to get in shape and go through the motions.

So in Montreal you have to blindly agree with all they do or you are fired? that is utterly ridiculous. I would want to hire people who have their own opinions.

So in Montreal you have to blindly agree with all they do or you are fired? that is utterly ridiculous. I would want to hire people who have their own opinions.
- nastyflyergirl

That's why you don't work for the Habs. What a hilarious situation up there

Does he? How many of his faceoffs in the defensive zone arent at the start of his shift?
- YuenglingJagr

a lot. Look at his faceoff totals alone in comparison to the rest of the team. he is often out just for the draw then leaves the ice as soon as the play goes up the ice.

People stress the possession part of the game with the fancy stats but yet faceoff, which is the start of possession, isn't important. that is a contradiction to me IMHO

So in Montreal you have to blindly agree with all they do or you are fired? that is utterly ridiculous. I would want to hire people who have their own opinions.
- nastyflyergirl

They didn't necessarily fire him; his contract was not renewed.

They've said they plan on bolstering their analytics department (whatever the (frank) that means). They'll have a hard time recruiting though. No data scientist wants to work for a company that won't value their work.

Anybody see this?

http://www.thehockeynews....-ranking-of-all-30-teams/

That would be a very strong 3rd line, but I've always liked Raffl more in the top 6 because his possession abilities work so well with the high scorers. He's also a fully capable LW on a team that desperately needs LWs, so I'm not sure about playing him at center. I'd like to give Cousins a long look at 3C this season as well.

Kind of transitioning to a broader topic here, but I was hoping for a little more consolidation this offseason from Hexy. Maybe moving multiple pieces for a higher end piece (young, skilled forward) or cleaning up the glut in the bottom 6 and bottom pairing.

I know Hexy likes to have young players force their way into the lineup, but it isn't always obvious. What if Streit's Richard doesn't fall off? Does Ghost ever play? He was clearly ready for the NHL, but you never would have known unless he got the opportunity.

I would have preferred leaving a spot on the bottom line and a spot on the bottom pairing open for the best young player. Instead, the young players are forced to kick out an incumbent, which is much harder to do. Especially when Hexy talks about how preseason and camp isn't the best determinate because vets are just trying to get in shape and go through the motions.
- PhillySportsGuy

I think we see that consolidation next season. Hopefully, Laughton and Cousins take strides forward this year. As veterans drop off, we'll see young guys force the issue. But they're going to have to earn it.

I think we see that consolidation next season. Hopefully, Laughton and Cousins take strides forward this year. As veterans drop off, we'll see young guys force the issue. But they're going to have to earn it.
- Jsaquella

I just think we look at "earning it" in too much of a black and white way. Morin has outplayed Schultz in preseason, but was still sent down/back to juniors. I just feel like there is no exact moment when you definitively say "He's ready." At some point, you just need to take the plunge.

(frank), I've become MOAT

Anybody see this?

http://www.thehockeynews....-ranking-of-all-30-teams/
- Tomahawk

Only 200 people responded.to the survey. Waste of time.

Anybody see this?

http://www.thehockeynews....-ranking-of-all-30-teams/
- Tomahawk

sew leight

Only 200 people responded.to the survey. Waste of time.
- MJL

You're just a bundle of joy, aren't you.

You're just a bundle of joy, aren't you.
- Tomahawk

He's the smartest guy in the room of 50 people, but he doesn't believe it's a big enough sample size to make any real judgements, so it's a moot point.

He's the smartest guy in the room of 50 people, but he doesn't believe it's a big enough sample size to make any real judgements, so it's a moot point.
- PhillySportsGuy

Too small of a number for his processor to compute