If you think this is a good trade you should pick another sport to watch.
- PugsNotDrugs

Great argument.

Larsson will get the Oilers in the playoffs. Keeping the same group that has failed for years will not.

I can't think of a worse 1 for 1 trade than Hall for Larsen. Anybody else?
- PugsNotDrugs

I don't think it is the worse trade ever as Edmonton is getting a good player. Most would say it's a bad trade because Edmonton should have gotten more then just larsen. For ex. also getting Jerseys first rounder next year as well.

I still hate the Leafs giving up Sequin, Hamilton and a second rounder for Kessel. Or going back aways can you top a worse one for one trade then Toronto giving up Courtnall for John Kordic.

Please explain WHAT ON EARTH is the "logical fallacy of Appealing to the Experts?" Weber was handpicked by competent hockey people to represent Canada along with Burns, Doughty, Keith, Vlasic and co...Of course we reference it! What am I missing here?
- The Rocket

In the study of logic and critical thinking there are a set of standard logical failures that are common made. These are referred to as "Logical Fallacies" and they include things like ad hominem attacks, straw-man arguments, confirmation bias, recency bias and appealing to the experts.

Appealing to the Experts means that instead of thinking a problem through, you just assume that because of their authority, the person making the decision knows what they are doing.

So for example, if you just assume that Weber deserves to be on Team Canada because Team Canada picked him and that that therefore means he's better than Subban, you are committing this fallacy.

Whether or not he is better is irrelevant of what Team Canada does.

No they'll make it for sure. They'll likely compete to win the West. Doesn't make it a good trade.
- James_Tanner

Really?

How do you measure a good trade.

We may not believe Larsson is as good a player as Hall, but at the end of the day if Edmonton is a better team because they play a more sound defensive game, and Larsson is logging 23 minutes a night...

Where is your arguement then?

Really?

How do you measure a good trade.

We may not believe Larsson is as good a player as Hall, but at the end of the day if Edmonton is a better team because they play a more sound defensive game, and Larsson is logging 23 minutes a night...

Where is your arguement then?
- Aetherial

If I have a million dollars and I'm hungry, is it a good deal if I spend all of it on a single burger?

They will win less game with their current team than if they didn't trade Hall. They're sort of too stacked with talent to fail.
- James_Tanner

I suppose you are claiming this as fact?

Excellent arguement tactic, take your opinion, present it as fact. Of course you do that regularly with your stats arguements, so why should we expect different.

I suppose you are claiming this as fact?

Excellent arguement tactic, take your opinion, present it as fact. Of course you do that regularly with your stats arguements, so why should we expect different.
- Aetherial

It's far more likely you have an antiquated view of the game and search blindly for a reason to discredit those who would expose your ignorance. I find you trolling me to be really boring, where the heck is MJL?

If I have a million dollars and I'm hungry, is it a good deal if I spend all of it on a single burger?
- James_Tanner

Ahhh... the ridiculously out of scope analogy.

How about if I have a 50,000 car and I need to off-road, but there are very few trucks available out there, and none that are equivalent value.

So, I trade my 50,000 car for a 38,000 truck that will do what I need it to do.

Am I better off today, or should I have just held on to my 50,000 car and not been able to meet my requirements?

james has literally been saying the oilers are going to make the playoffs every year for about 5 years and he's wrong every single time but watch them finally make it one year and we'll never hear the end of how great he is and everyone else was wrong

It's far more likely you have an antiquated view of the game and search blindly for a reason to discredit those who would expose your ignorance. I find you trolling me to be really boring, where the heck is MJL?
- James_Tanner

yeah, that must be it.

oh and by the way, attempting to discredit someone's differing opinion by likening it to a ridiculously out-of-scope analogy is more "trolling" than anything I have typed here.

Translation: Please be more like the Toronto Sun, Hockeybuzz.
- James_Tanner

I just want to know what you based the worse trade scenerio on? Skill, Teams needs, or just to talk nonsense . Write something interesting with some sort of logic to it. Just some consrtuctive criticism. I know you have to write something for the sake of writing something. Don't become a Jay Mariotti>

Please understand that half the problem with the world today is that people only speak at each other. Then, when someone says something they disagree with, they say they're 'just trolling.'

I don't do this for the money. I get more than enough people reading it and I certainly don't need to make up opinions just to get attention.

I wouldn't say it unless it wasn't what I thought, (unless I was joking, which, you should be able to tell the difference).

I come here and back up or explain everything I write, so at least credit me with having some integrity, even if you don't agree. I'm too good to troll.

Also, even if what you say is true, my belief, based on the information I have, is that they just want a bunch of yes men. Most NHL teams tend to use analytics only when they confirm what they already think.
- James_Tanner

I enjoy reading your blogs and this in one of the reasons. You don't write something and hide. You stay around and answer your critics, you defend your stance. Unlike many bloggers on this site who say nothing to the people who read what they have to say and comment.

We all get it.

Hall is a better player than Larsson, by a fair amount, at this stage of their careers. The problem with the vehemence of your argument is that you can't take that simple of a look. There are a few other things to consider.

1) Hall is nowhere near the hockey-God you make him out to be.

2) You (and the rest of us) know very little about Larsson.

3) The relative value of D-men Vs. Wingers is very high, some would argue too high, but hey, that's the market.

4) We don't know if any better, defensive D, were available.

5) If you don't make the trade, as painful as it is, you are basically willing to continue the same pattern as the last number of years and hope for a different result.

But what is value? Sometimes getting rid of someone is a bigger value than keeping them.
- Sn1362

If someone owns a 2 door Porsche and needs/wants to get rid of it for example, because if an expanding family or whatever, do they go to a dealership and swap it straight up for the minivan because that is what is what they need? This feels like the sports equivalent of doing that.

In the study of logic and critical thinking there are a set of standard logical failures that are common made. These are referred to as "Logical Fallacies" and they include things like ad hominem attacks, straw-man arguments, confirmation bias, recency bias and appealing to the experts.

Appealing to the Experts means that instead of thinking a problem through, you just assume that because of their authority, the person making the decision knows what they are doing.

So for example, if you just assume that Weber deserves to be on Team Canada because Team Canada picked him and that that therefore means he's better than Subban, you are committing this fallacy.

Whether or not he is better is irrelevant of what Team Canada does.
- James_Tanner

OK. So Team Canada selected Weber because he is not as good as Subban? Or is Weber a more reliable, established and experienced defensemen? Why would you load your national team with players you feel are not simply the best the country has to offer?

Ahhh... the ridiculously out of scope analogy.

How about if I have a 50,000 car and I need to off-road, but there are very few trucks available out there, and none that are equivalent value.

So, I trade my 50,000 car for a 38,000 truck that will do what I need it to do.

Am I better off today, or should I have just held on to my 50,000 car and not been able to meet my requirements?
- Aetherial

You should have planned ahead better so as not to have wasted $12 000. The Oilers have six months until their annual November Elimination Ceremony, they didn't need to rush a trade for a top forward in the NHL.

Considering that you can basically play any NHL dman when Taylor Hall is on the ice and come out ahead, they basically only improved their team by how ever much extra ice time Larsson will get over Hall. But since Larsson won't drive the play like Hall did, they'll be worse for the 20 minutes they were giving Hall.

Therefore: brutal trade.

OK. So Team Canada selected Weber because he is not as good as Subban? Or is Weber a more reliable, established and experienced defensemen? Why would you load your national team with players you feel are not simply the best the country has to offer?
- The Rocket

You wouldn't. However, the point is that Team Canada could be wrong. Since they need to get horribly unlucky to even have a chance to lose they have no incentive to question their decisions or the way they've always done things.

any word on where gormley or rundblad will end up?

I don't think it is the worse trade ever as Edmonton is getting a good player. Most would say it's a bad trade because Edmonton should have gotten more then just larsen. For ex. also getting Jerseys first rounder next year as well.

I still hate the Leafs giving up Sequin, Hamilton and a second rounder for Kessel. Or going back aways can you top a worse one for one trade then Toronto giving up Courtnall for John Kordic.
- sparky

The leafs have made some beauties over the years. The difference is we'll admit how bad they were. The difference in the Kessel trade is it was for picks and could have gone either way. But everyone in the league knows how good a player Hall is. They should have gotten more for him. If Larsson doesn't play great for edm he'll be run out of town. Leafs and Oilers fans are notorious for that.

We all get it.



5) If you don't make the trade, as painful as it is, you are basically willing to continue the same pattern as the last number of years and hope for a different result.
- Aetherial

I get this but the problem is that last year they didn't dress Hall, McDavid, RNH, Draisaitle and Klefbom together in a single game.

So they blew up their team without ever really knowing what it could do.

any word on where gormley or rundblad will end up?
- rinaldo

No but I heard you got a gig opening for Louis C.K at the Forum, so great job. I knew you had the best material.

You should have planned ahead better so as not to have wasted $12 000. The Oilers have six months until their annual November Elimination Ceremony, they didn't need to rush a trade for a top forward in the NHL.

Considering that you can basically play any NHL dman when Taylor Hall is on the ice and come out ahead, they basically only improved their team by how ever much extra ice time Larsson will get over Hall. But since Larsson won't drive the play like Hall did, they'll be worse for the 20 minutes they were giving Hall.

Therefore: brutal trade.
- James_Tanner

Wow.

So the answer is they should have done things differently all along? How is that related to this trade being the worst of all time?

I am going to make this real simple and straightforward...


You: Considering that you can basically play any NHL dman when Taylor Hall is on the ice and come out ahead,

Me: Hall is a -27 career

How did you come out ahead. again?

I get this but the problem is that last year they didn't dress Hall, McDavid, RNH, Draisaitle and Klefbom together in a single game.

So they blew up their team without ever really knowing what it could do.
- James_Tanner

Want to bet they can't do it this year either (replace Hall with Larsson).

Do you not agree that Edmonton was flawed?

Sometimes the absolute value of something, however you care to measure it, is not the point. Sometimes you have to overpay for what you need. If Dmen good enough to make a significant improvement to your team were readily available, they would not cost Taylor Hall. They aren't.

Do you think there were better defensive, right-handed Dmen out there available in a trade for Taylor Hall. Do you believe Chiarelli didn't pursue the dmen he was interested in?

You wouldn't. However, the point is that Team Canada could be wrong. Since they need to get horribly unlucky to even have a chance to lose they have no incentive to question their decisions or the way they've always done things.
- James_Tanner

This is can actually agree with. There is a lot of old-school thinking in hockey, and a tendency to stick to what you know, and what worked before, regardless of whether or not there is a better solution.

Then again, does Team Canada have the time to really discover what the best combination is?

You should have planned ahead better so as not to have wasted $12 000. The Oilers have six months until their annual November Elimination Ceremony, they didn't need to rush a trade for a top forward in the NHL.

Considering that you can basically play any NHL dman when Taylor Hall is on the ice and come out ahead, they basically only improved their team by how ever much extra ice time Larsson will get over Hall. But since Larsson won't drive the play like Hall did, they'll be worse for the 20 minutes they were giving Hall.

Therefore: brutal trade.
- James_Tanner

OK, let's try again. The Hip's farewell tour is coming to town, and you missed out on getting a $100 ticket. You have to buy one off the web to catch the show you really want to see, costs you $200. Do you do it? An overpay for something that you feel will be valuable to you, it's not that crazy of a concept.

Like everyone else on the planet, I know that the Hall trade was not fair value, but I'll give Larsson some time to see what he can bring in Edmonton before I harshly over-criticize the deal.