Edit: speaking of backup goalies again...

Nobody liked my Kunitz for Elliott idea?

Exactly. It amazes me how people don't understand how its not always about who the best player is. The name of the game is icing a cost effective team. Bonino and Backlund would occupy the same role and Bones is much more cost effective.
- Victoro311

I would never argue bonino doesn't have good value at 1.8

Take it with a grain of salt.......

Stars have contacted Pens about Fleury, talks heating up per Michael Grosso, who is some rumor guy that the Hawks blogger thinks is solid.
- cap1681

Well, Dallas doesn't have the 6th overall pick, so I guess they are out. (I forgot the sarcasm font).

You were just saying yesterday Wideman would help us... Maybe it was someone else who offered the 30 something and Wideman.

And when injuries happen we have HBK to pick up the slack. Our forward depth is covered. Its our D depth thats not.
- Victoro311

He would help ... But does he fit cap wise no I don't think so

You were just saying yesterday Wideman would help us... Maybe it was someone else who offered the 30 something and Wideman.

And when injuries happen we have HBK to pick up the slack. Our forward depth is covered. Its our D depth thats not.
- Victoro311

I offered it today, and last week, and I wasnt serious either time.

Edit: speaking of backup goalies again...

Nobody liked my Kunitz for Elliott idea?
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Why not sign Carter Hutton for 1 million instead?

How about if both of us stop talking backups until MAF is dealt, if he will be? Deal?

You were just saying yesterday Wideman would help us... Maybe it was someone else who offered the 30 something and Wideman.

And when injuries happen we have HBK to pick up the slack. Our forward depth is covered. Its our D depth thats not.
- Victoro311

I disagree. Kessel is the only real goal scoring winger we have. If he happened to get hurt...who scores goals?

I agree we could use D depth but I still really want another winger that can score.

It's pretty simple logic.

1. Murray's performance thus far
2. Murray will be making 600K this year and then is a RFA. He won't be making the same as Fleury after that ... less, so you save money
3. Murray is our starter
4. Murray is young and controllable
5. Murray is the anti-Fleury. When he gives up a bad goal, he rebounds from it.
6. Trading Murray for the 6th overall doesn't yield us a single thing for two or three years on the NHL level because that player more than likely has to develop still. This is a pretty easy concept to understand and people don't seem to get it. And if that pick busts, you get what in return exactly for a young star goalie? Dumb move.
- Oneonta Penguin

1. Murray's performance so far has been good but Lalime. Hedberg, Carey and many other hard really good starts to their careers but weren't able to sustain.
2. Murray's RFA status is as big of an unknown as anything, there have been no comparable of other goaltenders who have been starters coming of of the ELC contracts, if he does continue and is the stud many believe he already is then there's no way to determine what his cost will be after this year and it's very feasible that if he's that good it could take Fleury money or more to retain him.
3. Murray is our starter in your eyes, there's no clue how things progress going forward, GMJR has already said Fleury starting next year is very possible and if they both remain and he outperforms Murray in camp and the preseason there's no reason to think he won't be the starter if he's playing better.
4. Murray is definitely young but the controllable part is not accurate, yes they will have the ability to qualify him but that doesn't guarantee his cost or his term, it also doesn't guarantee another team doesn't try to steal him through an offer sheet, the only guarantee they get with him being an RFA is that they will be compensated if he goes somewhere else but the compensation is pointless if it leads to them losing both Murray and Fleury.
5. Just proves that your stances comes from an anti-fleury bias
6.How can we possibly know what the time frame for a player drafted at #6 is when we have no clue who that player is? Getting a contribution year 1 is probably unlikely but many top 10 picks make impacts quicker than 2-3 years and there's a much higher chance of not getting a bust at #6 than there is with the 2nd or 3rd round pick we would get for Fleury. There's also no guarantees that the added cap space from moving MAF will yield any upgrades either so if Murray isn't the star goalie you think he is then we have an issue in goalie and a potential for no upgrades to the roster and even if he is the star goalie you beilieve he is that makes it that much tougher/expensive to reatin him next year.

As I said, pros & cons to both sides, only closed minded people can't see that.

Why not sign Carter Hutton for 1 million instead?

How about if both of us stop talking backups until MAF is dealt, if he will be? Deal?
- Oneonta Penguin

I like your Carter Hutton idea a lot, but if a special set of circumstances happen in which there's a team to take back Kunitz and we have a plan to replace him, I'd rather have Eliot for a year than Hutton.

Indeed but Stars cant have that much money tied up in goalies. They need to get rid of Kari "Let'em in".

That would be over $12M tied up in goalies for Dallas. Kari is 5.9, Fleury 5.75, AND you want them to retain $1.5 from Niemi??
- YouMeAndDupuis9

It's their problem, not ours. They won't get a cup with those two tenders and it's going to be damn hard to dump either one of them on another team. They have 10mil tied up now with no chance of going far with either guy. At least they get a competent tender for the extra money.

Edit: speaking of backup goalies again...

Nobody liked my Kunitz for Elliott idea?
- YouMeAndDupuis9

I was thinking along those lines as well...assuming MAF was going to Calgary.

I know Kunitz is going to be talked about a lot with respect to trades by people that want to move him out. I think, logically, his value right now would be about as high as it's gonna get unless he starts next season next to Sid and lights it up on the scoreboard.

Edit: speaking of backup goalies again...

Nobody liked my Kunitz for Elliott idea?
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Nobody in St-Louis does that's for sure.

Why not sign Carter Hutton for 1 million instead?

How about if both of us stop talking backups until MAF is dealt, if he will be? Deal?
- Oneonta Penguin

I think Elliott is better. I would be okay with Hutton if Murray was a little more proven. There's still a chance of a sophomore slump or injury and I think we need more of a 1A caliber backup.

Obviously my initial post was all about IF we trade Fleury to Calgary, thats a solid option to get a great backup and save some cap space.

I disagree. Kessel is the only real goal scoring winger we have. If he happened to get hurt...who scores goals?

I agree we could use D depth but I still really want another winger that can score.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

I do too, but every team has roster holes and we need to prioritize. Our D is a lot worse off than our wingers. Yes our wing depth kind of relies on Crosby and Malkin elevating them, but that's the perk of having Crosby and Malkin. An LW is certainly priority #2, though.

I like JR's approach...ask for something substantial...if you don't get it, keep MAF.
- icedog97

The fact is, the Penguins know their cap situation better than anyone here and are aware of everything they can or might be able to do to free more space and sign players if needed. Unless there is a deal they think makes sense, or Fleury demands a trade (which he hasn't so far), he's not going anywhere yet, and if he doesn't they'll no doubt have plenty of chances to make a trade between now and the expansion draft if needed.

Who knows, maybe Murray bombs (hopefully not, but you never know) or is injured between now and then and they make MAF the No. 1 again and deal Murray or leave him to the ED. Then we'd all be saying "Whew, good thing they kept Fleury" Anything could happen and nothing would surprises me anymore.

Making a move just to get it done now if they (Penguins and Fleury) don't feel it has to be done is a bunch of haste and waste.

The fact is, the Penguins know their cap situation better than anyone here and are aware of everything they can or might be able to do to free more space and sign players if needed. Unless there is a deal they think makes sense, or Fleury demands a trade (which he hasn't so far), he's not going anywhere yet, and if he doesn't they'll no doubt have plenty of chances to make a trade between now and the expansion draft if needed.

Who knows, maybe Murray bombs (hopefully not, but you never know) or is injured between now and then and they make MAF the No. 1 again and deal Murray or leave him to the ED. Then we'd all be saying "Whew, good thing they kept Fleury" Anything could happen and nothing would surprises me anymore.

Making a move just to get it done now if they (Penguins and Fleury) don't feel it has to be done is a bunch of haste and waste.
- NJPensfan

Be careful with that type of rational thinking around here, it's very frowned upon by some.

Bonino played with good linemates in Anaheim and was good ...Vancouver he had crap linemates and struggled ...played most of the year in Pitt with crap linemates and struggled ...was given kessel and all of the sudden he's good again ...coincidence ?
- Redmile247

Nope, no coincidence at all. And for whatever reason the line he's on now is performing well enough to be the best line on the team many nights. So simply by association, calling him the 3rd line center just because Malkin is on the team makes no sense, does it?

Be careful with that type of rational thinking around here, it's very frowned upon by some.
- jaydogg1974

Well, expansion's getting announced at 4pm today, so if it turns out all NMCs are autoportected, there is no longer a rational argument to keeping MAF.

Deal Murray. CGY has wanted him for at least 6-8mos, apparently has offered their #6+ for him already. Get that up as high as you can and swing the deal at the draft. Then, turn around and deal #6+ to CBJ for #3 and laugh away...
- mventres

Hmmm. A proven asset, won a cup and smoked the AHL, cost controlled for years, for what? A #6 pick? Why?

Nope, no coincidence at all. And for whatever reason the line he's on now is performing well enough to be the best line on the team many nights. So simply by association, calling him the 3rd line center just because Malkin is on the team makes no sense, does it?
- NJPensfan

Honestly we don't have numbered lines. We have three very good, offensively potent lines that we roll and leave it up to the other team to figure out how to neutralize. Then a fourth line which is also good and does more than just tread water.

Well, expansion's getting announced at 4pm today, so if it turns out all NMCs are autoportected, there is no longer a rational argument to keeping MAF.
- Victoro311

The rational argument is that you ask him to waive his no movement clause. If he doesn't, you trade him before the trade deadline next March. If he refuses to move when asked, you buy him out.

Well, expansion's getting announced at 4pm today, so if it turns out all NMCs are autoportected, there is no longer a rational argument to keeping MAF.
- Victoro311

True, and that's something JR talked about and why they were waiting until they knew more.

worst case scenario for pens fans this offseason:

Murray gets traded
Fleury gets traded
Zatkoff is named starter
beau Bennett is injured

The rational argument is that you ask him to waive his no movement clause. If he doesn't, you trade him before the trade deadline next March. If he refuses to move when asked, you buy him out.
- PensFan1962

Nothing rational about buying out a No. 1 goalie when you don't even have a backup to your brand new starting goalie who 2 months ago was nothing more than a backup himself.

The fact is, the Penguins know their cap situation better than anyone here and are aware of everything they can or might be able to do to free more space and sign players if needed. Unless there is a deal they think makes sense, or Fleury demands a trade (which he hasn't so far), he's not going anywhere yet, and if he doesn't they'll no doubt have plenty of chances to make a trade between now and the expansion draft if needed.

Who knows, maybe Murray bombs (hopefully not, but you never know) or is injured between now and then and they make MAF the No. 1 again and deal Murray or leave him to the ED. Then we'd all be saying "Whew, good thing they kept Fleury" Anything could happen and nothing would surprises me anymore.

Making a move just to get it done now if they (Penguins and Fleury) don't feel it has to be done is a bunch of haste and waste.
- NJPensfan

Yep...it's the 'fantasy hockey trade' mentality...at least as I see it.