Just want to carry this over from the last thread.


I agree 100%. Other than EK and possibly Stone, there isn't one player on this team that I wouldn't include in a package to get a bona-fide #1 center. My point was that it's silly to trade away a guy like Ceci in a move for yet another scoring winger.



Skinner is not an upgrade over a healthy Mac. Look at his numbers. The guy gets all the honey mins (top line, 1st line PP) and his numbers aren't great at all. He is also as soft as soft gets. We already have two soft wingers in our top 6 who can't win a puck battle along the boards (Ryan and Hoff). I think it would be ridiculous managing to have 3 of your 4 top 6 wingers incapable of ever winning the puck from the other team.

Our wings are not the problem. Adding wingers, unless we are trading wingers, is a waste of time and not addressing the real issues of this team.
- Charliebox

Turris is a bonafide number 1 center. I think trading Ceci would be a huge mistake. Ceci is one of the top 5 players that would be on my no touch list: king karl, Stone, Ceci, Turris and Hoffman.

Doughty plays defence and Karl doesn't. Doughty should win due to that fact but Karl had a great season.
- Mino42

King Karl is one of the best puck possesion player and skater in the league, which means when he has the puck on his stick, which is almost more time than any other player, he is untoucheable, you can barely take the puck away from him and he drives the team's play forward towards the offensive zone. That is the pure defenition of playing defense, not staying back and hitting someone because your are out of that option. Other players, like Doughty and Burns end up being perceived playing D primarly because they are stuck in the defensive zone to defend, because they cannot rely on their puck possesion skills and skating skills to bail out the entire team defensively at the same level as King Karl. If you at least would watch 5 games straigth of the Ottawa Senators, you would truly understand why he should not only be considered Norris candidate. The guy is in a league of his own, top 3 player in the NHL right now, no doubt.

It seems to me like the arguments for Doughty to win the Norris are mainly from the fact that he's been very good for a long time but just hasn't won it; therefore, he deserves it this time. Come on folks! I've watched Doughty, and yes he is awesome; but when you see Karlsson play, he is a generational talent and a constant force who makes brilliant (not just great) plays at both ends of the ice. There is no comparison to his combination of speed, skill, smarts, and leadership. Homer comment-quite possibly, I'll accept that if you want to go there; but I won't accept that Doughty is hands down better or should win the Norris this year.

Doughty plays defence and Karl doesn't. Doughty should win due to that fact but Karl had a great season.
- Mino42

Its quite evident that you have not watched any Senators hockey. His defense is way underrated and frankly a non issue. Last years defensive issues stemmed from bad second and third parings ,the guy was playing 30+ minutes every night. He was still the second be defensive defenseman on the team (until Phaneuf showed up). Even with Phaneuf it's debatable.

It's easy to say he's bad defensively if you don't watch the guy play hockey.

Turris is a bonafide number 1 center. I think trading Ceci would be a huge mistake. Ceci is one of the top 5 players that would be on my no touch list: king karl, Stone, Ceci, Turris and Hoffman.
- PtotheY

For all the talk about Duchene, it's interesting to compare the last 2 full seasons played by Turris and Duchene in terms of production (i.e. not including Turris' injury-laden season from last year)...
Player A - 158GP, 51G, 63A, 114Pts, 18:35TOI
Player B - 164GP, 50G, 72A, 122Pts, 18:57TOI

Many seem to feel that one is a bona fide #1 centre, while the other is not - yet in this comparison, Player B is actually Turris. This isn't to say that I'm against the idea of trading for Duchene, but I don't think the perceived upgrade factor is nearly as significant as it's being made out to be.

Personally, I would say that if Zibanejad and the #12 pick wasn't enough to get a deal done for Duchene, then you pass.

It notable that fans from other teams are hating on his defensive ability while Sens fans are defending it. It's easy to say its homerism but we're talking about defensive play. These are the types of plays and players that erk home fans the most. Cowen esk mistakes won't make homer fans like you.

What I'm saying is that poor defensive players don't earn much respect.... particularly in Ottawa... See Spezza...

It notable that fans from other teams are hating on his defensive ability while Sens fans are defending it. It's easy to say its homerism but we're talking about defensive play. These are the types of plays and players that erk home fans the most. Cowen esk mistakes won't make homer fans like you.

What I'm saying is that poor defensive players don't earn much respect.... particularly in Ottawa... See Spezza...
- nohtingbutnet

opposing fan's love not hate that part of his game

- sensarmy_11

Not sure why we have to engage in the Karlsson debate on a weekly basis.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

entertainment value

What I'm saying is that poor defensive players don't earn much respect.... particularly in Ottawa... See Spezza...
- nohtingbutnet

I defended Spezza, but that is actually a very valid point. It seems to matter little to some Sens fans what a player contributes if he makes ugly defensive plays at times.

Karlsson isn't immune to the odd gaff ( no dman is ) but it seems that the jaw dropping defensive plays that happen quite frequently offset this. Many of the players who have been dogged by fans for their defensive woes despite their offense, have been possibly because they never made spectacular plays in their own end where their perceived weakness existed. Since Karlsson has multiple great defensive plays for every ugly gaff, I wonder if people are more forgiving because of that?

Not sure why we have to engage in the Karlsson debate on a weekly basis.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

Hits?

It's normally a baron wasteland in here

Hits?

It's normally a baron wasteland in here
- walshyleafsfan

*crickets*

*crickets*


- Garnie

I defended Spezza, but that is actually a very valid point. It seems to matter little to some Sens fans what a player contributes if he makes ugly defensive plays at times.
- MaxTLimit

Few people could question his talent, but what irritated me the most about Spezza was the fact that he neither seemed to learn from his mistakes, or make a substantial effort to atone for them. There were even post-game interviews where he'd essentially cite scoring he'd done in previous games when asked about having had a bad game. For a star player in a leadership position on a professional hockey team, that's simply unacceptable. It's also a major difference between him and Karlsson, who has a comparatively solid work ethic, and visibly owns his mistakes.

I defended Spezza, but that is actually a very valid point. It seems to matter little to some Sens fans what a player contributes if he makes ugly defensive plays at times.

Karlsson isn't immune to the odd gaff ( no dman is ) but it seems that the jaw dropping defensive plays that happen quite frequently offset this. Many of the players who have been dogged by fans for their defensive woes despite their offense, have been possibly because they never made spectacular plays in their own end where their perceived weakness existed. Since Karlsson has multiple great defensive plays for every ugly gaff, I wonder if people are more forgiving because of that?
- MaxTLimit

I posted at the time of the Spezza garbage that people would eventually turn on Karlsson like they did Spezza. People find the skill exciting at first, then get tired of the defensive lapses in their game when the team can't get over the hump. Not sure why. It seems to me fans would be more happy with 4 lines of Erik Condras and 6 pairings of Mark Methots.

I hope I'm wrong, but it seems to be the reality here in Ottawa. Players with offensive ability are always ostracized by their poor defensive play. Defensive players however always seem to be given leeway with their lack of offensive skills. I'll never figure out why this is. Both sides of the game are equally important.

I posted at the time of the Spezza garbage that people would eventually turn on Karlsson like they did Spezza. People find the skill exciting at first, then get tired of the defensive lapses in their game when the team can't get over the hump. Not sure why. It seems to me fans would be more happy with 4 lines of Erik Condras and 6 pairings of Mark Methots.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

I'm still confused as to why some people have trouble acknowledging the difference between players like Spezza, Havlat, Yashin, and Heatley, versus players like Alfredsson, Hossa, Chara and Karlsson. Both groups of players have exceptional raw talent, but only one group has demonstrated the work ethic and competitive nature to back it up. Similarly, players like Methot, Condra, Fisher, and Phillips get respect from the fans because their effort and character is virtually never in doubt.

For those that believe that division of skilled player is artificial or off the mark, ask yourself why so few GM's in the NHL were interested in trading for any of Heatley, Spezza, or Havlat... even when they were clearly available and being offered at a discount? Then ask yourself why nobody ever got "tired" of Alfredsson, Hossa, or Chara, or what would happen if Murray were to announce tomorrow that he's inviting trade offers for Karlsson.

Wow shocker..

How Doughty won over Burns or Karlsson is beyond me.

So the guy who had the worst season of the 3 finalists wins it........called it

Few people could question his talent, but what irritated me the most about Spezza was the fact that he neither seemed to learn from his mistakes, or make a substantial effort to atone for them. There were even post-game interviews where he'd essentially cite scoring he'd done in previous games when asked about having had a bad game. For a star player in a leadership position on a professional hockey team, that's simply unacceptable. It's also a major difference between him and Karlsson, who has a comparatively solid work ethic, and visibly owns his mistakes.
- khawk

I liked Spezza and I think he was the most skilled forward ever to play for Ottawa (Alfie missed on the equal skill but was a more valuable talent because of his will to win, his intensity and leadership skills).

I supported trading Spezza because it was time to move forward. The team got old and Spezza was older than his age hobbled by chronic back pain. I was okay for him to stay another year. What I feared most of all was Ottawa resigning Spezza to a $7.5m retirement contract. Soft rumour on the edges today is that Spezza is available for a minor cost. Not an option for the Sens.

I liked Spezza and I think he was the most skilled forward ever to play for Ottawa (Alfie missed on the equal skill but was a more valuable talent because of his will to win, his intensity and leadership skills).

I supported trading Spezza because it was time to move forward. The team got old and Spezza was older than his age hobbled by chronic back pain. I was okay for him to stay another year. What I feared most of all was Ottawa resigning Spezza to a $7.5m retirement contract. Soft rumour on the edges today is that Spezza is available for a minor cost. Not an option for the Sens.
- spatso

I'd love to see Ottawa bring him back.


Ott: Paul, Chiasson & 2016 2nd

DAL: Spezza



Murray got royally (frank)ed on that deal

Wow shocker..
How Doughty won over Burns or Karlsson is beyond me.
- Erik6Karlsson5

Burns was a distant 3rd in voting, and actually got fewer 1st place votes than Letang. Apparently Doughty had a career-high in +/-, which I think we can all agree is just a tremendous achievement.

So the guy who had the worst season of the 3 finalists wins it........called it
- sensarmy_11

There's more to the award than just points.

Doughty deserves this.

There's more to the award than just points.

Doughty deserves this.
- As_I_See_It

based on what? his +/-?

doughty won the award because the media felt that he "should have won one before".....in other years you could justify that doughty deserved it more than karlsson....but not this year.

furhter to that, karlsson wasn't just about points.

he had more blocked shots than doughty, fewer giveaways, WAAAYYY more takeaways. he had fewer hits, but still pushing 100 which is pretty impressive considering you're claiming all he does is produce points.

I'm still confused as to why some people have trouble acknowledging the difference between players like Spezza, Havlat, Yashin, and Heatley, versus players like Alfredsson, Hossa, Chara and Karlsson. Both groups of players have exceptional raw talent, but only one group has demonstrated the work ethic and competitive nature to back it up. Similarly, players like Methot, Condra, Fisher, and Phillips get respect from the fans because their effort and character is virtually never in doubt.

For those that believe that division of skilled player is artificial or off the mark, ask yourself why so few GM's in the NHL were interested in trading for any of Heatley, Spezza, or Havlat... even when they were clearly available and being offered at a discount? Then ask yourself why nobody ever got "tired" of Alfredsson, Hossa, or Chara, or what would happen if Murray were to announce tomorrow that he's inviting trade offers for Karlsson.
- khawk

It's comments like this that make me embarrassed to be a Sens fan. All it takes is effort and character to get respect I guess. Sens fan must have the film Rudy playing on continuous loop.

There is something to be had with actual skill. It helps wins you championships. Not every guy exemplifies "effort and character" that you are going on about. Not to say you don't need those guys. You do, of course. You need a good mix. You do a good job of trying to group players that have played here, but you ignore one thing. None of them have won squat in Ottawa. The ones that have one, were in situations where there was the right mix of players to win.

Phil Kessel is a prime example from this years playoffs. Not necessarily a heart and soul guy that teams love (i.e. Sidney Crosby), but he has exceptional skill that assisted in winning the Stanley Cup.

To out these kinds of player is ridiculous. They are just as needed as an Alfie type player.

Not even worth replaying regarding "trade offers". Guess the no trade clause some players had has some people confused.

My Spezza jersey will remain hanging in my house. I'm saying no more about that.

I hope that losing the Norris this year will only push Karlsson to be better in the future. No sour grapes. Congrats to Doughty, we'll probably see the same argument through the next year.