pre-concussion....maybe, but that's like saying give me "pre hip replacement cowen" or "pre knee replacement michalek" or "pre concussion lindros" etc, etc, etc.

the multiple concussions are a reality that we have to deal with, and given that i'm taking skinner 10 times out of 10 over mac

just my opinion
- sensarmy_11

You're right. You brought up the comparison and I played into it.

I should have just left it at, 'we don't need 3 soft wingers who can't win a puck battle to save their lives in our top 6'.

This trophy belongs to Karlsson but Doughty will win because of media love.

In a way this may be the best thing for Karlsson and the Sens if he doesn't win. I want him to come back even better and more hungry next year and by all indications he will. I actually expect Karlsson to flirt with 90 points next season, especially if the Sens can sign another puck moving D to help him out (Campbell).

The Sens will finish 2nd in the division next season and a lot of that will be because of Karlsson. He's going to also be a top 3 nominee for the Hart next season as well.

Go Sens Go!
- riceroni

Whooaaaa.....can I have some of what this dude is smoking? That's some googly-eyed optimism right there....

SECOND in the division?? That's pure insanity. Sens will finish SECOND LAST in the division, or potentially dead last. This team is on a major downswing

he's 24 years old, had 30 goals last year.......he's as good as hoffman, who is infinitely better than mac.

i like the guy, but he's not as good as skinner..............and he's wicked injury prone.
- sensarmy_11

He only had 28 goals, but your points are valid. MacArthur is a solid 20 goal guy, but he doesn't have the goal scoring talent Skinner does. Skinner is still in prime and tending back upwards after injury. MacArthur may never trend back up.

Not to split hairs, but Karlsson is 26 and the Norris for this year hasn't been awarded yet.

If you claim Karlsson is a 4th forward, he had the 4th most points as a forward, provided elite puck possession, elite shot suppression, had some of the best breakout success, and had the most positive on ice impact. He also quarterbacked the power play.

No matter what you call him, he was dominant this year. Since he lined up at and was listed as defense, then he deserves the Norris.

Giving it to Doughty because ' he's due ' is terrible logic. There is little in the way of hard numbers to justify him winning. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE LOVE LOVE doughty. He just doesn't deserve to win this year. He's just playing at the wrong time. He's great, but there is just that one guy who is always a bit better.

NHL.com had 4 writers chose Doughty for the Norriz, and 3 of them cited TOI as a big reason even though his TOI was BELOW Karlsson. How does that logic work?
- MaxTLimit

Voter Fatigue is an unfortunate, yet unavoidable phenomenon when you been as good as long as EK. We've seen the reverse too with guys winning because they've established a "Norris reputation." And Norris trophy voting has always been controversial:


- Doug Wilson in 81-82 over Borque/Coffey
- Rod Langaway in 82-83, 83-84 over Borque/Coffey
- Chelios in 88-89 over Coffey/Borque/MacInnis
- Lidstrom in 11-12 over Weber/Chara

Granted a lot of those guys were great players, but its hard to see what kind of formula is being used to pick the winners.

Al MacInnis won his first and only trophy in 98-99! at age 35
Chara won his first and only trophy in 08-09 at age 31

Doughty plays defence and Karl doesn't. Doughty should win due to that fact but Karl had a great season.

Whooaaaa.....can I have some of what this dude is smoking? That's some googly-eyed optimism right there....

SECOND in the division?? That's pure insanity. Sens will finish SECOND LAST in the division, or potentially dead last. This team is on a major downswing
- AxlRose91

how so?

we could lose 3 of our key players to injury and still finish 10pts clear of your team.

please back up your trolling or (frank) off

Doughty plays defence and Karl doesn't. Doughty should win due to that fact but Karl had a great season.
- Mino42

spoken like someone who never watches karlsson play.......by no means a "shut down defender" but is very good in his own end. very good positionally, excellent stick, smart, and an excellent skater allowing him to get back when virtually no other defender could. he was also among the defensive leaders in takeaways.

I kind of wish GM's or players voted for every award instead of the media... I think you'd see a much more interesting makeup of a lot of the awards.

I kind of wish GM's or players voted for every award instead of the media... I think you'd see a much more interesting makeup of a lot of the awards.
- riceroni

who determines the finalists......or do they just add up all the votes, the finalists are the 3 who got the most votes, and they just announce the winner.

i've never really understood how the process works..........but to be fair i've never really cared enough to look it up.

Doughty plays defence and Karl doesn't. Doughty should win due to that fact but Karl had a great season.
- Mino42

If you look at the stats Karlsson was a -2 and Doughty was +24.
However the Sens as a team were -11 in goal diff and the Kings were a +30
Karlsson above team avg, Doughty is below.
Karlsson plays a full minute more a game on avg than Doughty and takes longer shifts
Both play 6 mins of special teams on avg per game
http://www.foxsports.com/...ategory=ICE%20TIME&team=0

FWIW I thought Burns was a force in the playoffs and that would have tipped the scales in his favour (if Sharks had won)
27 goals in the regular season though pretty impressive...

how so?

we could lose 3 of our key players to injury and still finish 10pts clear of your team.

please back up your trolling or (frank) off
- sensarmy_11

Trolling? Nearly everyone outside of Ottawa shares this opinion. But you go ahead and continue to delude yourselves. Will make it more painful when your rebuild begins mid-season....

FWIW I thought Burns was a force in the playoffs and that would have tipped the scales in his favour (if Sharks had won)
27 goals in the regular season though pretty impressive...
- JN1980

I can think of several years in the past that 27 goals and 75 points by a Dman would have been a lock for a Norris. Burns is hurt by being a minus player on a team near the top of the standings, but he is a force on the ice.

Trolling? Nearly everyone outside of Ottawa shares this opinion. But you go ahead and continue to delude yourselves. Will make it more painful when your rebuild begins mid-season....
- AxlRose91

I've seen you post many times, but never once have you contributed anything to a conversation. Nothing of value. Ever. On any topic. Is it on purpose?

It's funny how people continue to talk about Karlsson's lack of defense, when all the advanced stats show otherwise.

The information is out there for everyone to see and yet these haters continue to say the same crap they did (and was actually true) 3-4 years ago. More than a handful of bloggers/writers have done very good breakdowns of Karlsson's play at both ends of the ice.

Continuing to say the same crap, when there's mountains of evidence to prove otherwise is just ignorance at this point. I know it's fun to be an ignorant hater, but those who do it are looking more and more like idiots as the years go by and EK gets better and better.

All that said, just like Leo finally took home an Oscar for a good, but not the best performance this year, so too with Doughty. They are going to give him his lifetime achievement award.

Not sure why we have to engage in the Karlsson debate on a weekly basis.

People fail to recognize that defence in the NHL has changed. Every elite d-man in the league share the same general characteristics. Your ability to make a first pass, to be the best skater on your team, to run a PP, and yes to put up points, these are now the characteristics that define 'elite' in terms of NHL defence. And rightly so. When you go down the list of elite NHL defenders, you don't see the same type of guys that you saw back 15 years ago. The game has changed. The people who take a dump on Karlsson's defensive acumen are the same type of people who think that you should anchor your team around the Hal Gill's of the world because they're large humans.

That said, I do feel like Doughty is going to win this thing. I honestly don't know if he deserves it or not. I watched a grand total of two Kings games this year, and in those games he was a collective -4 with no points. Obviously the award isn't given based on 2 games, but an entire season of work, but when he went head to head with Karlsson in those two games, and Karlsson had 1G 2A +2, and on a team that was objectively far crappier than the Kings, it's not hard to see who the superior hockey player is. It's not even close.

But yeah, Doughty is probably going to win. I hope I'm wrong. Karlsson is absolutely the best dman in the league, the best of his generation, but now they're likely gonna hand one to Doughty because he 'deserves' one.

Didn't they say the same thing with Weber for years though? And he never got one, because there was always someone superior to him that season.

Norris or not, anyone who watches hockey knows that Karlsson is the better player, even the haters know it.

I can think of several years in the past that 27 goals and 75 points by a Dman would have been a lock for a Norris. Burns is hurt by being a minus player on a team near the top of the standings, but he is a force on the ice.



I've seen you post many times, but never once have you contributed anything to a conversation. Nothing of value. Ever. On any topic. Is it on purpose?
- MaxTLimit

I drop reality bombs.....BOOOOM!

Trolling? Nearly everyone outside of Ottawa shares this opinion. But you go ahead and continue to delude yourselves. Will make it more painful when your rebuild begins mid-season....
- AxlRose91

Interesting comment. I heard Elliotte Friedman say the other day that he thought Ottawa has enough good pieces in place to make a run. I hear far more people who are bullish on the team than those who are negative on them. In fact, most of the negative comments come from Leafs/Habs fans who are trying to antagonize this fanbase, and from Senators fans who embrace the role of critical loser.

I have a real issue with the pessimistic outlook on the Senators, because I think it's as cowardly as it gets. If you're a pessimist and you're right about them sucking, then you win because you get to tell everyone that you called it. And if you're wrong about them sucking, you still get to support a winning team and feel good about it. Bottom line, stop being so depressing. They've got a new coaching staff with a new philosophy, the whipping boys are all off the roster, they're going to add a couple of pieces to fill things out, I think next year will be much better.

I guess we'll see though. There's a faction of Senators fans who believe that the new coaching staff will turn things around, and there's a faction of Senators fans who are so wrapped up in self-loathing that they think the team objectively sucks. Clearly you fall into the latter category, so if they aren't awful this year, are you going to call it an aberration, or will you come back and admit that you were wrong?

who determines the finalists......or do they just add up all the votes, the finalists are the 3 who got the most votes, and they just announce the winner.

i've never really understood how the process works..........but to be fair i've never really cared enough to look it up.
- sensarmy_11

Yes, the votes are tabulated (at the end of regular season) and the top 3 votegetters are the finalists with the one getting the most "voting points" (1st- 5th on voters ballots get points) winning.

I just looked at the voting results from last year and it could be similar this season...Doughty had more 1st place votes than Karlsson, but Karlsson had way more 2nd and 3rd votes, so he ended up with more points. Same could happen this year, because regardless of how many people decided to vote the "deserves it" way for Doughty, I don't see how you can leave Karlsson off the top 3 on any ballot. I don't necessarily think the same could be said about Doughty this season.

Yes, the votes are tabulated (at the end of regular season) and the top 3 votegetters are the finalists with the one getting the most "voting points" (1st- 5th on voters ballots get points) winning.

I just looked at the voting results from last year and it could be similar this season...Doughty had more 1st place votes than Karlsson, but Karlsson had way more 2nd and 3rd votes, so he ended up with more points. Same could happen this year, because regardless of how many people decided to vote the "deserves it" way for Doughty, I don't see how you can leave Karlsson off the top 3 on any ballot. I don't necessarily think the same could be said about Doughty this season.
- JaredCrozier

That's a very good point. I never really thought about it that way. Most who don't have Doughty as #1 (those who don't buy into the lifetime achievement award) probably won't even have him in the top 3.

I guess there is hope for EK afterall.

Trolling? Nearly everyone outside of Ottawa shares this opinion. But you go ahead and continue to delude yourselves. Will make it more painful when your rebuild begins mid-season....
- AxlRose91

I love when people profess to speak for "the masses" or "nearly everyone"... that's basically code for "I've got jack $hit to validate my point, but I sure do prefer my opinion to yours". It's right up there with having a girlfriend that you wouldn't know because she doesn't live around here.

just like i'm sure matthews has been crying himself to sleep for the last month.
- sensarmy_11

I would be too.

Same could happen this year, because regardless of how many people decided to vote the "deserves it" way for Doughty, I don't see how you can leave Karlsson off the top 3 on any ballot. I don't necessarily think the same could be said about Doughty this season.
- JaredCrozier

Spite? Petty attempts to influence a preferred result by setting the ballot up to support the player you want to win, by intentionally sabotaging the player you want to lose?

I'd like to think the press is more even handed than that. I have faith in the ethical decision making involved.

...Until later tonight at least

I love when people profess to speak for "the masses" or "nearly everyone"... that's basically code for "I've got jack $hit to validate my point, but I sure do prefer my opinion to yours". It's right up there with having a girlfriend that you wouldn't know because she doesn't live around here.
- khawk

But that's true. She lives two towns over. SUPER hot though

I just looked at the voting results from last year and it could be similar this season...Doughty had more 1st place votes than Karlsson, but Karlsson had way more 2nd and 3rd votes, so he ended up with more points. Same could happen this year, because regardless of how many people decided to vote the "deserves it" way for Doughty, I don't see how you can leave Karlsson off the top 3 on any ballot. I don't necessarily think the same could be said about Doughty this season.
- JaredCrozier

This will be an interesting test of the NHL's voting consistency... if there's any rationale whatsoever behind why Karlsson and Subban have won the Norris Trophy in 3 of the past 4 seasons, then Karlsson should almost certainly win again this year after finishing in the top-5 of league scoring and having the most productive season by a defenceman in the past 2 decades. If Doughty does win, he will have done it in a season where he put up 31pts less than Karlsson, and was tied for 9th in Points and was 16th in PPG by a defenceman. Put another way, the 31pts gap between Karlsson's production and Doughty's would have led 3 different NHL teams in defenceman scoring last year.

This is exactly why the NHL should establish the Bobby Orr Trophy for the highest-scoring defenceman, and then award the James Norris Trophy to players like Doughty, Weber, Hedman, or Suter, in recognition of their all-round achievement at the position.

Spite? Petty attempts to influence a preferred result by setting the ballot up to support the player you want to win, by intentionally sabotaging the player you want to lose?

I'd like to think the press is more even handed than that. I have faith in the ethical decision making involved.

...Until later tonight at least
- MaxTLimit

Certain members of the press are NOT above this type of blatant sabotage. Have a look at the Hart Trophy voting from 2002 (the year Jose Theodore won). On several (French-Canadian) ballots, all of the front-runners for the award were left off entirely. It was basically Theodore in 1st, Murray Craven in 2nd, and Paul Ysebart in 3rd....