I can almost live with that. Perhaps one of the seconds and the fourth?
- PensFan1962

You can almost live with that? Flower, Pouliot, and the two seconds for the 6th overall would be a fantastic trade for us. One that Calgary won't take. Take the black and gold glasses off...

There are gonna be a lot of posters on here that are going to be very disappointed with the Fleury return.

In other news, Yohe reported today that Fleury hasn't officially requested a trade after a couple of conversations with JR this past week despite all other signs pointing to that he would, and The Old Man is in no hurry to move him. It even sounded like Ruth doesn't want to move him. Hopefully Old Man Ruth knows something that we don't in terms of expansion rules.
- Victoro311[/quote

The point is: why trade him now if the return isn't great? Worst case is that they salary dump him if he doesn't waive his no trade, or he's exposed to and chosen by Vegas (5.7 million of cap relief), or he claims the number one spot and deserves it.

What's the rush? Unless someone gives us a decent draft return?

You can almost live with that? Flower, Pouliot, and the two seconds for the 6th overall would be a fantastic trade for us. One that Calgary won't take. Take the black and gold glasses off...
- Victoro311

Not sure I understand. Most picks after the top three are not sure things. Who is the projected #6, by the way. If you get the NFL reference here, take your Mel Kiper glasses off.

You can almost live with that? Flower, Pouliot, and the two seconds for the 6th overall would be a fantastic trade for us. One that Calgary won't take. Take the black and gold glasses off...
- Victoro311

I agree with you 100%... Look I understand we are all armchair GMs and coaches but can we try to be a little bit rational with our proposals? Sending multiple low picks do NOT equal a high draft pick nor anything of significant value... By trading MAF you will have to take on salary if you want any kind of return. Goalie positions open in the NHL are like parking spots in a mall on Black Friday... The good ones are all gone and the only ones left are handicapped...

I can almost live with that. Perhaps one of the seconds and the fourth?
- PensFan1962

-_- fine... if Calgary would actually entertain that (which I am doubting) sure. It was just an example of what a counter is, vs what changing it to Murray was.

There are gonna be a lot of posters on here that are going to be very disappointed with the Fleury return.

In other news, Yohe reported today that Fleury hasn't officially requested a trade after a couple of conversations with JR this past week despite all other signs pointing to that he would, and The Old Man is in no hurry to move him. It even sounded like Ruth doesn't want to move him. Hopefully Old Man Ruth knows something that we don't in terms of expansion rules.
- Victoro311

General thoughts old GMJR.

He likes to take his time with trades as evidenced by Kessel, Daley, and Hagelin -- all three he was in trade talks for weeks.

He also loves to deal at the draft, whether or not the Fleury moves at the draft I dont know but I think he will be active. In my mind, you have to make a decision and move Fleury at the draft as picks will almost surely be involved

He doesn't have a great grip on league rules. His strength is wheeling and dealing. But he didn't even understand that you could get compensation for fired coaches..if you remember he was surprised when he found that out. Combine that with the league's vaugeness around expansion rules, he's working pretty blindly right now.

He is a fair GM. He felt getting a pick for Shero was against the spirit of the rules, even though he could have pushed for it. Most of his trades are hockey trades and he is willing to give to get. All the trades this year looked great in hindsight but at the time of the trade we all thought, yea that makes sense for both teams. He's not looking to win trades, he's looking to find players that are the right fit.

Okay, I wrote a book.

General thoughts old GMJR.

He likes to take his time with trades as evidenced by Kessel, Daley, and Hagelin -- all three he was in trade talks for weeks.

He also loves to deal at the draft, whether or not the Fleury moves at the draft I dont know but I think he will be active. In my mind, you have to make a decision and move Fleury at the draft as picks will almost surely be involved

He doesn't have a great grip on league rules. His strength is wheeling and dealing. But he didn't even understand that you could get compensation for fired coaches..if you remember he was surprised when he found that out. Combine that with the league's vaugeness around expansion rules, he's working pretty blindly right now.

He is a fair GM. He felt getting a pick for Shero was against the spirit of the rules, even though he could have pushed for it. Most of his trades are hockey trades and he is willing to give to get. All the trades this year looked great in hindsight but at the time of the trade we all thought, yea that makes sense for both teams. He's not looking to win trades, he's looking to find players that are the right fit.

Okay, I wrote a book.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

In his defense for not getting all of the 3rd rounder comps he could have... no one had done it his entire career, until that year... and now the rule is gone

Not sure I understand. Most picks after the top three are not sure things. Who is the projected #6, by the way. If you get the NFL reference here, take your Mel Kiper glasses off.
- PensFan1962

Look at what most goalies go for. Low firsts +. Look at what Andersen just went for, who's value was probably higher than Fleury's due to age. A low first (last actually) and a second. It has nothing to do with who's projected at #6. The inherent value of the #6 overall pick is much higher than Fleury's. The #6 overall pick's value is also substantially higher than Fleury, a prospect that keeps blowing chances, and two lotto tickets with much worse odds than the #6.

Probably the two most comparable trades in recent memory to a hypothetical Fleury trade were the trades of veteran goalies Ryan Miller and Roberto Luongo.

Luongo got a once highly touted goalie prospect on bust alert in Markstrom and Shawn Matthias who at the time was perceived to be an ok depth roster player. In other words, the Canucks got cap space for Bobby Lu.

Miller was packaged with overvalued Steve Ott for an expiring goalie cap dump in Halak, a Chris Stewart cap dump, a B prospect, a low first and a third.

There is a lot of president here that says Fleury isn't worth a high draft choice. The 6th overall in any draft, even if it was the weakest in NHL history, is outlandish for Fleury alone and extremely good compensation for the afore mentioned package.

You can almost live with that? Flower, Pouliot, and the two seconds for the 6th overall would be a fantastic trade for us. One that Calgary won't take. Take the black and gold glasses off...
- Victoro311

I would never do that. Again, you guys get so caught up in top 10 draft picks. A starting goalie, a former 8th overall cheap defenseman that can contribute, and our only two decent picks...to get a draft pick that may help us in a year or two?? Do you forget we just one the cup? Acquiring picks is important but its not the end all be all for a cup contender. Heck we could just end up drafting another Pouliot player with the 6th pick. It's a guessing game.

Bottom line, a cup contender can't trade roster players ++ for an unknown that will take time to develop. (Outside of the top 3 picks).

I agree with you 100%... Look I understand we are all armchair GMs and coaches but can we try to be a little bit rational with our proposals? Sending multiple low picks do NOT equal a high draft pick nor anything of significant value... By trading MAF you will have to take on salary if you want any kind of return. Goalie positions open in the NHL are like parking spots in a mall on Black Friday... The good ones are all gone and the only ones left are handicapped...
- hipcheck_goalie

Top of the line goalie after his best season as a pro with three more years remaining on an undervalued contract and cap hit. Check. Plus, Calgarys cap space is large, right?

A former first round pick with a lot of potential as a D in need of a scenery change. Check.

Plus you throw in a second rounder? On top of filling some positions of need?

For potential? How many #6 picks worked out at the NHL level? I'm sure all the parties know this. Do we?

What then would you offer Calgary? Malkin? Now you are talking like EK....

Look at what most goalies go for. Low firsts +. Look at what Andersen just went for, who's value was probably higher than Fleury's due to age. A low first (last actually) and a second. It has nothing to do with who's projected at #6. The inherent value of the #6 overall pick is much higher than Fleury's. The #6 overall pick's value is also substantially higher than Fleury, a prospect that keeps blowing chances, and two lotto tickets with much worse odds than the #6.

Probably the two most comparable trades in recent memory to a hypothetical Fleury trade were the trades of veteran goalies Ryan Miller and Roberto Luongo.

Luongo got a once highly touted goalie prospect on bust alert in Markstrom and Shawn Matthias who at the time was perceived to be an ok depth roster player. In other words, the Canucks got cap space for Bobby Lu.

Miller was packaged with overvalued Steve Ott for an expiring goalie cap dump in Halak, a Chris Stewart cap dump, a B prospect, a low first and a third.

There is a lot of president here that says Fleury isn't worth a high draft choice. The 6th overall in any draft, even if it was the weakest in NHL history, is outlandish for Fleury alone and extremely good compensation for the afore mentioned package.

- Victoro311

Not that I agree with you, but if you feel that way you sweeten the pot to see if a deal can be done. If not, no harm.

Of course it's all about who is available...

I would never do that. Again, you guys get so caught up in top 10 draft picks. A starting goalie, a former 8th overall cheap defenseman that can contribute, and our only two decent picks...to get a draft pick that may help us in a year or two?? Do you forget we just one the cup? Acquiring picks is important but its not the end all be all for a cup contender. Heck we could just end up drafting another Pouliot player with the 6th pick. It's a guessing game.

Bottom line, a cup contender can't trade roster players ++ for an unknown that will take time to develop. (Outside of the top 3 picks).
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Listen. This isn't about Flower making our team better. I'll be the first to admit Flower is the best goalie currently on this roster. The priorities in a Fleury deal go:

1) Protect Murray
2) Cap space
3) Tangible assets

Getting a really high pick accomplishes all three to an extreme extent. I get your argument for DP. Our D depth is extremely suspect. But the other arguments the Dude does not abide. Keeping Flower makes our team better next year, sure, but then what happens if we can't move him in the very short time frame before expansion and Murray goes unprotected? Not only do you lose Murray for nothing, but now you don't have cap flexibility because you lost your cheap goalie. And who cares about two seconds if you have that high of a first? The odds are ridiculously higher on the first than the two seconds combined.

EDIT: Not that it matters. Fleury, DP + wont start the conversation on a high 1st.

I would never do that. Again, you guys get so caught up in top 10 draft picks. A starting goalie, a former 8th overall cheap defenseman that can contribute, and our only two decent picks...to get a draft pick that may help us in a year or two?? Do you forget we just one the cup? Acquiring picks is important but its not the end all be all for a cup contender. Heck we could just end up drafting another Pouliot player with the 6th pick. It's a guessing game.

Bottom line, a cup contender can't trade roster players ++ for an unknown that will take time to develop. (Outside of the top 3 picks).
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Agree, but if a deal is in the offing, why not try to make it? Pens can afford to part with Fleury and Poliot and use the cap space to sign a decent D (or two) for the 4th/5th slot.

Not that I agree with you, but if you feel that way you sweeten the pot to see if a deal can be done. If not, no harm.

Of course it's all about who is available...
- PensFan1962

If you're talking about pursuing a bigger deal involving Fleury + in order to get something more useful, then sure. That'd be a really good idea if there was a deal to be had somewhere.

Not that I agree with you, but if you feel that way you sweeten the pot to see if a deal can be done. If not, no harm.

Of course it's all about who is available...
- PensFan1962

Lest we all forget, Poilot was deemed "untouchable" in the last two seasons of memory serves me correctly.

Lest we all forget, Poilot was deemed "untouchable" in the last two seasons of memory serves me correctly.
- PensFan1962

A half a season of barely being an effective NHL player, and then spending the next season blowing chances and borderline taking a step back diminishes trade value.

Top of the line goalie after his best season as a pro with three more years remaining on an undervalued contract and cap hit. Check. Plus, Calgarys cap space is large, right?

A former first round pick with a lot of potential as a D in need of a scenery change. Check.

Plus you throw in a second rounder? On top of filling some positions of need?

For potential? How many #6 picks worked out at the NHL level? I'm sure all the parties know this. Do we?

What then would you offer Calgary? Malkin? Now you are talking like EK....
- PensFan1962

A 31 year old goalie who had 3 concussions and who couldn't win the net from a 21 year old rookie goalie... Yes he played well earlier and without him, the Pens wouldn't make the playoffs... I get it but I also know he's not getting you a top return. As for as DP goes, his value is low. Come on man.

A 31 year old goalie who had 3 concussions and who couldn't win the net from a 21 year old rookie goalie... Yes he played well earlier and without him, the Pens wouldn't make the playoffs... I get it but I also know he's not getting you a top return. As for as DP goes, his value is low. Come on man.
- hipcheck_goalie

Bottom line, Pens can stand pat unless someone blows them away with an offer. They just won the Cup, and Fluery can be dumped at any time next season on someone who wants a top notch goalie at a reasonable cap hit. Plus, even if he agrees to be unprotected, Vegas may not even pick him if he's such an injury risk as you say.

Also, for someone who's value is so low, Poiliot has been untouchable in the Pens system for the past 2-3 years, and they have had a lot of offers for him. Do they know something we do not? He's only 21.

Lest we all forget, Poilot was deemed "untouchable" in the last two seasons of memory serves me correctly.
- PensFan1962

Why exactly would the Flames want him anyway? Defence is not an organizational need. You can't just offer spare parts and expect a return.

If you're talking about pursuing a bigger deal involving Fleury + in order to get something more useful, then sure. That'd be a really good idea if there was a deal to be had somewhere.
- Victoro311

Think like a GM. He's only 21, has a lot of potential, and is on an ELC. They may see something that we don't, since people keep asking for him in a deal.

Why exactly would the Flames want him anyway? Defence is not an organizational need. You can't just offer spare parts and expect a return.
- dr_soiledpants

What are your needs, besides goal?

What are your needs, besides goal?
- PensFan1962

Top 6 rw

A half a season of barely being an effective NHL player, and then spending the next season blowing chances and borderline taking a step back diminishes trade value.
- Victoro311

Yep, but man was that 8th overall pick valuable!!!!

Yep, but man was that 8th overall pick valuable!!!!
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Would have been if we picked Forseberg like we were supposed to

Top 6 rw
- dr_soiledpants

Interesting times. I wonder who the Flames will go after...