Oh and for everyone questioning 19/88 deals....

Well....

88 is the best player in hockey right now. yes, I'd take him over 87 or that kid in Edmonton everyone wants to anoint as Gretzky. Kane's game is on a huge upswing and this SHOULD have been back to back Art Ross and probably Hart's if not for his injury last February.

19 is the best overall forward in the game in all areas combined. Period. A complete player.

So when Stamkos gets 11-12 million and 2-3 years from now 19/88 are in the top 10 in paid deals, think we can all agree they are a STEAL at that moment.

So apparently you're allowed to name call because you disagree. I'd respond, but I get banned because I'm not a cronie
- PatShart

I see you're reasoning for THIS year. Fair to point out, but also to accept other factors at play.

In terms of over paid or bust or whatever else....I dont' get that at all....

Sweet we got Lumbergh...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVmC0ktznNo
- Beaks99

I hate TPS reports:

I know his name has come up here as a potential free agent target, but we can cross him off the list:

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie 2h2 hours ago
This one is for Gord, too: BOS and Kevan Miller agree to a four-year, $10 million extension. $2.5M AAV.
- DarthKane

My friend who is a Bruins fan said to consider ourselves lucky. Judging by Twitter Bruins fans are not at all happy with that extension

Really? Leaving management out of this one, you're going to compare him to Bickell, Rundblad and Mashinter? They are the bottom of the roster, and they are bad. They deserve all the bashing they get.

Not sure how many GM's would trade him for Malkin. Malkin hasn't been healthy for a whole season in 8 years, in his career malkin is a +57, Toews a +157 among other things. The Crosby vs. Toews argument has been kicked around forever. Natural scorer vs. leadership/defense/intangibles.

If the Hawks were in true rebuild mode you maybe would entertain a Toews for McDavid or Matthews, but as the club is currently situated it would be a resounding no. McDavid may truly be a generational talent, who knows, he still has a lot to prove. Matthews even more.

You're talking about a player who has led his team to 3 cups. How many does Sid and Geno have? Benn? McDavid? Bergeron? Kopitar? Ovechkin? Like it or not you ARE paying him for past performance and accomplishments, and removing him leaves a much bigger whole to fill, even with multiple players than his $10.5 mil will get you.
- TheTrob

You choose to bash the bottom of the roster, I choose to have high expectations for the top/high paid ones. Why are you right and I'm wrong? Is there a rule over who I can expect to live up to a contract? Is the treshold 4mil and below?

If +/- was your end all/be all on the highest paid player in the league, then yes - Toews should be up there. Bergeron as well. I'm not sure Malkin has played with arguably the best 2 way winger in the history of the game as many of your GMs would probably say Hossa is, has he? Or has Geno played with a multiple Norris winner? Kopitar has 2 Cups....and I'm sure if any of that list was on the Hawks roster the Cup years, not sure the teams play would have faltered much. I recall a series vs DET Lord Toews fell apart.

And I believe in my post, I didn't think/never said they should trade him. I responded to players you asked were "as good" or young players I'd trade him for - never a suggestion on my end to move him

Apologies if already proposed....

Will the Special K ( ) signing allow the Hawks to do a deal of:

TT, depth defenseman & Bickell for a top 6 LW? Preferably a physical specimen that is more Ladd than Panarin? Hawks would not have been able to keep up with STL without #16.

Here's what I don't understand. You blast me because I'm disappointed in Toews' lack of production. And then it's ok on your end to be "disappointed" in what TT's development should have been?

First year here...............played in 34gms - 4g- 5a- 9pts (.26ppg)
Then this season - First full year - 78gms - 13g-22a-35pts (.45ppg)

He played PP, PK, RW, LW and C - shifting around all four forward lines. Is the sole disappointment that he's not Andrew Shaw? Because he never will be.

Don't label me on the TT bandwagon or anything. If they can trade him and improve the team at his low cap hit - I won't lose a minutes sleep. But my disappointment in a guy anointed the "best player in the league by all GM's" allegedly can't crack 60pts is comical - but the agreement with everyone on a guy that's undersized that just played his first full season, still on his ELC that increased his point production x2 while playing multiple roles - simply because he doesn't go in dangerous areas to get killed?
- PatShart

The difference is that every one of my posts does not come back to TT and my opinion of him. I also never mentioned that my disappointment in TT has anything to do with his salary cap hit. My disappointment was, as many others have also stated, more about what the expectation of TT's growth would be vs. the actual.

Yes, TT improved his numbers and played many roles, the question still remains whether he can be the player he is expected to be and/or needs to be. Plenty of players are not physical but still have an impact on the game, at this point TT does not in most games (such as the playoffs) where the physicality is dialed up.

Toews and Kane are being paid what their market value was at the time based on similar players, cups won, and the cap projections as they existed. Kopitar, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos all got or will get similar considerations and all their salaries are in the same ballpark.

Oh and for everyone questioning 19/88 deals....

Well....

88 is the best player in hockey right now. yes, I'd take him over 87 or that kid in Edmonton everyone wants to anoint as Gretzky. Kane's game is on a huge upswing and this SHOULD have been back to back Art Ross and probably Hart's if not for his injury last February.

19 is the best overall forward in the game in all areas combined. Period. A complete player.

So when Stamkos gets 11-12 million and 2-3 years from now 19/88 are in the top 10 in paid deals, think we can all agree they are a STEAL at that moment.
- SteveRain

Spot ON!!

My friend who is a Bruins fan said to consider ourselves lucky. Judging by Twitter Bruins fans are not at all happy with that extension
- maria_wyeth

What? You don't want a defenseman with 31 career points in 159 games locked up until he's 32 at $2.5 million per?

Oh and for everyone questioning 19/88 deals....

Well....

88 is the best player in hockey right now. yes, I'd take him over 87 or that kid in Edmonton everyone wants to anoint as Gretzky. Kane's game is on a huge upswing and this SHOULD have been back to back Art Ross and probably Hart's if not for his injury last February.

19 is the best overall forward in the game in all areas combined. Period. A complete player.

So when Stamkos gets 11-12 million and 2-3 years from now 19/88 are in the top 10 in paid deals, think we can all agree they are a STEAL at that moment.
- SteveRain

If 88 was a better defensive player and could kill penalties, he is probably the best player in hockey. Right now, he is the best offensive player.

This COULD have been back to back Art Ross, but it is a big leap to say should. He was leading the scoring by 1 point when he got hurt last year. He didn't exactly have it all wrapped up like he did this year.

As it is, right now, the 10.5 mil is too much. If Kane/Toews were living up to that cash, the Hawks would still be playing right now.

Sophomore slumps are quite common, and its not like he really slumped either(his PPG increased). We don't need TT to be anything spectacular, he just needs to get back to playing the way he did in the 2015 playoffs and i think he will. Still very young, no need to act like he's a lost cause(SteveRain).
- SimpleJack

Not a lost cause for sure - but the numbers don't tell the story here - it's the visual: watching him not engage too often (very often), getting rid of the puck at the first sign of pressure, alligator arms....

A bit disappointing to read that he's probably not going to train here this summer, under professional supervision.

But - he's only 21.

You choose to bash the bottom of the roster, I choose to have high expectations for the top/high paid ones. Why are you right and I'm wrong? Is there a rule over who I can expect to live up to a contract? Is the treshold 4mil and below?

If +/- was your end all/be all on the highest paid player in the league, then yes - Toews should be up there. Bergeron as well. I'm not sure Malkin has played with arguably the best 2 way winger in the history of the game as many of your GMs would probably say Hossa is, has he? Or has Geno played with a multiple Norris winner? Kopitar has 2 Cups....and I'm sure if any of that list was on the Hawks roster the Cup years, not sure the teams play would have faltered much. I recall a series vs DET Lord Toews fell apart.

And I believe in my post, I didn't think/never said they should trade him. I responded to players you asked were "as good" or young players I'd trade him for - never a suggestion on my end to move him
- PatShart

In reality, I didn't bash anyone, and I certainly didn't compare the bottom to the top in terms of what expectations were.

If I compare Toews to anyone, I do it to who the league and the GM's who are handing out the contracts, so if I look at the list of the top cap hits, then yes, he is worth what they are paying him and then some. Are there other players in the league worth more than they are currently being paid, like Bergeron, sure there are, but Toews, down year or not earns every penny of his salary. I dont trade Toews for any one of these guys.

2016 CAP-HIT
Jonathan Toews $10,500,000
Patrick Kane $10,500,000
Anze Kopitar $10,000,000
Alex Ovechkin $9,538,462
Evgeni Malkin $9,500,000
P.K. Subban $9,000,000
Sidney Crosby $8,700,000
Corey Perry $8,625,000
Henrik Lundqvist $8,500,000
Claude Giroux $8,275,000
Jakub Voracek $8,250,063
Ryan Getzlaf $8,250,000

Am I wrong, or does Kempny sound a little like the skills of Trevor Daley?
- tompo1015

Seems to me 9 years the Junior of JO.

The difference is that every one of my posts does not come back to TT and my opinion of him. I also never mentioned that my disappointment in TT has anything to do with his salary cap hit. My disappointment was, as many others have also stated, more about what the expectation of TT's growth would be vs. the actual.

Yes, TT improved his numbers and played many roles, the question still remains whether he can be the player he is expected to be and/or needs to be. Plenty of players are not physical but still have an impact on the game, at this point TT does not in most games (such as the playoffs) where the physicality is dialed up.

Toews and Kane are being paid what their market value was at the time based on similar players, cups won, and the cap projections as they existed. Kopitar, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos all got or will get similar considerations and all their salaries are in the same ballpark.
- TheTrob

Who's expectations and how early does he have to reach them?

And because Toews and Kane are paid "market value" - which are significantly higher, cost them other players they could not keep - do they not have any expectations to raise their production to meet their contract?

No wonder why Toews had a down season --> he knew he was going to be selling his mansion!

http://www.chicagotribune...-biz-20160523-column.html

Apologies if already proposed....

Will the Special K ( ) signing allow the Hawks to do a deal of:

TT, depth defenseman & Bickell for a top 6 LW? Preferably a physical specimen that is more Ladd than Panarin? Hawks would not have been able to keep up with STL without #16.
- phantasmo

TVR TVR TVR TVR. 👍🏻

Crap I meant JVR.

Just for sake of comparison -
15-16 Gustafsson - 41gms - 0g - 14a - 14pts +11 29hts - 37blks
14-15 Runblad - 49gms - 3g - 11a - 14pts +17 23hts - 38blks

Both can be sent back to Europe as far as I'm concerned
- PatShart

Prior to this season (Rundblad only played 9 games so I won't count this year), Rundblad still has over 100 games of NHL experience. Goose doesn't even have half of that yet. Let's give him a full sophomore season before we rush to make judgements.

As far as we should be concerned now, he should make for bottom-pairing depth. He's not going to paired with Seabrook and have pressure. I'll gladly take him as a #6 and with a $600K salary cap hit than another year of Rozy, Svedberg, etc.

What about getting a real top 6 LW?
- John Jaeckel

maybe if you ask 19/88 to chip in a couple of mil each = done...

If 88 was a better defensive player and could kill penalties, he is probably the best player in hockey. Right now, he is the best offensive player.

This COULD have been back to back Art Ross, but it is a big leap to say should. He was leading the scoring by 1 point when he got hurt last year. He didn't exactly have it all wrapped up like he did this year.

As it is, right now, the 10.5 mil is too much. If Kane/Toews were living up to that cash, the Hawks would still be playing right now.
- breadbag

Too much in terms of value or in terms of their percentage of the cap?

Remember, if the cap had increased as was originally expected their cap numbers would not be an issue. If the Cap had increased even $2mil more, then there isn't the discussion about "if they had both taken a million less each, we wouldn't be in the same cap hell".

In reality the Hawks will always spend to the cap, and there will always be the discussion about who is paid too much as it pertains to fitting needed pieces in under the cap or having to jettison wanted players, regardless of what the actual cap number is.

In reality, I didn't bash anyone, and I certainly didn't compare the bottom to the top in terms of what expectations were.

If I compare Toews to anyone, I do it to who the league and the GM's who are handing out the contracts, so if I look at the list of the top cap hits, then yes, he is worth what they are paying him and then some. Are there other players in the league worth more than they are currently being paid, like Bergeron, sure there are, but Toews, down year or not earns every penny of his salary. I dont trade Toews for any one of these guys.

2016 CAP-HIT
Jonathan Toews $10,500,000
Patrick Kane $10,500,000
Anze Kopitar $10,000,000
Alex Ovechkin $9,538,462
Evgeni Malkin $9,500,000
P.K. Subban $9,000,000
Sidney Crosby $8,700,000
Corey Perry $8,625,000
Henrik Lundqvist $8,500,000
Claude Giroux $8,275,000
Jakub Voracek $8,250,063
Ryan Getzlaf $8,250,000
- TheTrob

and nine of those guys were with teams that were 1st round bow outs this year

I am neither Czech, nor Slovak, but my understanding is the two languages share a lot ands that they can basically understand one another speaking their native tongues.

To use an analogy: Italians and Spaniards can sort of follow each other as can Germans and the Dutch, the Czech/Slovak difference is not as bad. So I've been told.
- John Jaeckel

Understood those to be quite similar. It wasn't that long ago they were the same coumtry, home of the 'Hawks all-time leading scorer, Stosh Mikita. Even more familiarity between them than the Swedes and Danes. Many of my Scandinavian colleagues can understand a bit of one another's native language, enough to get the point of one another's statement.

Apologies if already proposed....

Will the Special K ( ) signing allow the Hawks to do a deal of:

TT, depth defenseman & Bickell for a top 6 LW? Preferably a physical specimen that is more Ladd than Panarin? Hawks would not have been able to keep up with STL without #16.
- phantasmo

Maybe...but if you're another GM would you do that deal?

Not a lost cause for sure - but the numbers don't tell the story here - it's the visual: watching him not engage too often (very often), getting rid of the puck at the first sign of pressure, alligator arms....

A bit disappointing to read that he's probably not going to train here this summer, under professional supervision.

But - he's only 21.
- StLBravesFan

agree...big year for him with ELC expiring....

Hey Rainman,

really liked the move by Stan and co. It's going to be interesting to see here going forward how things sort themselves out. Would love to keep Ladder, but know that's hardly a possibility.

Can they finally buyout Bickell...? They could use that 3mil. Still would be a cap penalty the following season. They also need to find a way to hang onto Shaw. And does CC get moved here to free things up? Should be an interesting June/July here.

Still would have loved to see TT moved for Drouin.
- DK002

My personal Bickell buyout counter stands at 22 days.

Who's expectations and how early does he have to reach them?

And because Toews and Kane are paid "market value" - which are significantly higher, cost them other players they could not keep - do they not have any expectations to raise their production to meet their contract?
- PatShart

Managements expectations, and he has to reach them or show progress towards them until management determines that his value on the trade market can bring more in return, whether it be players, prospects or picks, than he is producing or expected to produce.

There most definitely is the expectation that Toews, Kane and everyone else on the roster perform to their market value, but that value is not always translated strictly to points.