Yeah, that was me who was going by the old rules and the fact that no team carries 3 G's. My bad. I tried to read up on the new rules a bit, and Darling and LJ would have to clear waivers due to their age and or games played in order to be sent down to Rockford, correct?
- Sundevil

Honestly, I don't know, Devil. My mind may still be stuck in 2012, but my first reaction is yes, they would need to. Someone? Anyone? Bueller?

Vlasic did a great job shutting down Tarasenko, that's not an easy thing to do.
- DarthKane

Vlasic is and has been a very good and often underrated defender.

JJ

This idea of moving Kane if he gets into trouble again is a head scratcher for me. Just as the Hawks are raked over the barrel because of the cap and Stan's "hands are tied", why would be moving a 'damaged goods' Patrick Kane not be the same thing. I could see us getting ripped off big time if Kane is traded under the auspices of bad behavior. Once again, the Hawks are trading from a point of disadvantage. This is assuming they could even move him at all with him undergoing any further investigation.

Or do you suggest that the Hawks could get "fair market value" for him even if he was wearing an orange jump suit.

I do NOT want to trade this guy at all, he's magical, but IF they did then I'd rather do it from the point of the Hawks having leverage. Another couple more trades like we've seed lately (2 #2s for Kimo, Johns, Rundblad trade, the Daley fiasco, trading a 2 and a spec for press box fodder) then this organization will have nothing in the way of quality depth to show.
- kwolf68

That's a big risk you take IF you think there's any chance of further "malfeasance." Maybe they don't.

Forgive me if this is a completely irrelevant or water under the bridge, but is anyone else upset that everyone finds re-signing Panarin imperative?

I am adamant that the Hawks would have been significantly more dangerous(er!) in 2015/16 with Saad on the roster, less one of Shaw/Crawford/other as a cap casaualty, than the club was with Anisimov.

I think Stan/FO was penny-wise, pound foolish not finding $2M extra AAV for Saad last summer. Sure, Kane had a great year with AA/72 on his line. But 72 was already signed before the trade. While I doubt Kane would have won the scoring title without Anismov, I also doubt a line with 72/88/pick a center (Kruger, Danault, Rass, etc.) would have been as incredibly anemic as 81/19 were without Saad.

My point is that people are speculating Panarin pulls down $5M a year and the Hawks must accomodate him or team play will suffer incredibly. My frustration is that for $1M -$2M more a year, the Hawks could have made it work to keep Saad. I think the value of that extra $1M got you a great forward for PP/PK/physicallity with maybe less direct goal production, but certainly more effectiveness from 81/19.
- phantasmo

Well, here's the deal, salary cap 1st world problems: the team lost not one, but TWO top 9 left wings last summer. Saad AND Sharp.

So, setting aside any Saad/Panarin comparison for a moment, if you lose Panarin you are a worse hockey team without question, and there is no "replacement."

Getting back to Saad, they are somewhat different players. Let's also remember that last year was Panarin's first in North America, with a huge language barrier.

He had a great rookie season and there is reason to believe he will get better. Points are not everything and Saad is a very good player without the puck, but Panarin isn't bad there either. I'm not sure I'm ready to say Panarin is a better player than Saad. But I am pretty sure he's every bit as valuable today and may be moreso going forward because he has some elite skill shooting, dangling and passing. And he wants to be better every year.

I am a little bored a work today so I started thinking about the expansion and if the teams are Las Vegas and Quebec (from what is sounds like it will be) how do those two teams effect the divisions. Right now the east has 16 teams and the west has 14. Obviously Quebec will not play in the West so another team will have to come over - my choice is Detroit.

So here is what I am thinking would make good divisions (names would be different but I put them down as just their location)

East
North: Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Quebec
East: Philadelphia, Boston, Columbus, Pittsburgh
Northeast: Buffalo, New York Rangers, New York Islanders, New Jersey
South: Washington, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Florida

West
Central: Chicago, Detroit, Minnesota, St. Louis
South: Dallas, Nashville, Colorado, Las Vegas
West: Anaheim, Los Angeles, San Jose, Arizona
North: Winnipeg, Calgary, Vancouver, Edmonton

Division winners automatically in the playoffs, remaining 4 spots per division by points; playoff seeding by total points.

Thoughts???
- spudrock512

They want alignment based on time zones as much as anything else. Detroit in the west forces them to a 3 hr time change in too many games. Alignment would need to become something else. Plenty of ideas out there. More to the effect of West, Central, NE, SE.

Kinda like some of these suggestions.

http://www.tomfulery.com/tag/nhl-quebec-city/

They want alignment based on time zones as much as anything else. Detroit in the west forces them to a 3 hr time change in too many games. Alignment would need to become something else. Plenty of ideas out there. More to the effect of West, Central, NE, SE.

Kinda like some of these suggestions.

http://www.tomfulery.com/tag/nhl-quebec-city/
- TheTrob

Yep it would be Columbus moving well before Detroit ever did. Detroit BEGGED to get put in the east, they are not going anywhere.

Well, here's the deal, salary cap 1st world problems: the team lost not one, but TWO top 9 left wings last summer. Saad AND Sharp.

So, setting aside any Saad/Panarin comparison for a moment, if you lose Panarin you are a worse hockey team without question, and there is no "replacement."

Getting back to Saad, they are somewhat different players. Let's also remember that last year was Panarin's first in North America, with a huge language barrier.

He had a great rookie season and there is reason to believe he will get better. Points are not everything and Saad is a very good player without the puck, but Panarin isn't bad there either. I'm not sure I'm ready to say Panarin is a better player than Saad. But I am pretty sure he's every bit as valuable today and may be moreso going forward because he has some elite skill shooting, dangling and passing. And he wants to be better every year.
- John Jaeckel

I'm ready to say that.

Sure points aren't everything, and Panarin had the benefit of playing with arguably the most electric offensive player in the NHL, but he's a player that I believe could thrive with any linemates. He has the ability to create on his own.

It's easy in hindsight to say that Saad was missed on that first line, but if the 'Hawks weren't able to get that offensive production from Panarin that they would have had in Saad, then obviously that loss of Saad would have been even more devastating.

I'm excited to see what Panarin does going forward after his ROOKIE campaign.

The Blues issues stem from their leadership not from their talent.

Hitch sent the wrong message by changing the goalies, Elliot was never the problem. On top of that Backes has never been the leader they need him to be when the "going gets tough". I only saw a couple of Blues consistently compete in that series. Brouwer or Pietrangelo should have been the player with the C on their jersey.

If you think SJ making the change from Thornton to Pavelski as Captain wasn't one of the reasons their history of choking changed you are fooling yourself.
- TheTrob

Who said that Elliott was the problem?

He was tired/had something wrong. We had a backup who they could count on starting in the playoffs. He had a good game, and a not so good game. Then they went back to Elliott as the 4 days off was what he needed.

Backes had a very good postseason. He was dealing with something the last few games, there was a reason that he sat out 2/3rds of game 4. Was the first time he really stepped up in the playoffs, nothing bad to say about him this year.

Who said that Elliott was the problem?

He was tired/had something wrong. We had a backup who they could count on starting in the playoffs. He had a good game, and a not so good game. Then they went back to Elliott as the 4 days off was what he needed.

Backes had a very good postseason. He was dealing with something the last few games, there was a reason that he sat out 2/3rds of game 4. Was the first time he really stepped up in the playoffs, nothing bad to say about him this year.
- carcus

You guys are fine. Significantly improved over the old Blues that we have been accustomed to the past couple of seasons.

JJ

This idea of moving Kane if he gets into trouble again is a head scratcher for me. Just as the Hawks are raked over the barrel because of the cap and Stan's "hands are tied", why would be moving a 'damaged goods' Patrick Kane not be the same thing. I could see us getting ripped off big time if Kane is traded under the auspices of bad behavior. Once again, the Hawks are trading from a point of disadvantage. This is assuming they could even move him at all with him undergoing any further investigation.

Or do you suggest that the Hawks could get "fair market value" for him even if he was wearing an orange jump suit.

I do NOT want to trade this guy at all, he's magical, but IF they did then I'd rather do it from the point of the Hawks having leverage. Another couple more trades like we've seed lately (2 #2s for Kimo, Johns, Rundblad trade, the Daley fiasco, trading a 2 and a spec for press box fodder) then this organization will have nothing in the way of quality depth to show.
- kwolf68

This is not a fear thing for me it's a reality for me with Kane. He has had 3 strikes. Do we chance this with him? I say no, we don't. 4 scenarios are at play here:

1. (<50% chance)Kane changes and becomes the player and more importantly the person we all want him to be and everyone knows he can be. Then Blackhawk Nation will celebrate his glory.

2. (His history makes this above average chance)He gets in trouble again. 4th strike and we have to deal from a position where we have to. The team gets screwed on the trade. Assuming he isn't going to jail.

3. (Unlikely thanks to high priced attorneys) His career is over and faces jail time. Best possible outcome for the Hawks is they would get to nullify his contract (via Mike Richards fiasco).

4. (Unknown) Trade him now, get terrific package back because of his MVP season and his resume.

I like #4, not because I hate him but because we cannot chance the other 2 (2&3) stronger possibilities. Yes he could reform but do we see anything from him that indicates this? I haven't and I'm sure, from a business perspective, he is being shadowed by some private investigator to determine his conduct since the last episode.

I hate to cause a stir but I think logically.

This is not a fear thing for me it's a reality for me with Kane. He has had 3 strikes. Do we chance this with him? I say no, we don't. 4 scenarios are at play here:

1. (<50% chance)Kane changes and becomes the player and more importantly the person we all want him to be and everyone knows he can be. Then Blackhawk Nation will celebrate his glory.

2. (His history makes this above average chance)He gets in trouble again. 4th strike and we have to deal from a position where we have to. The team gets screwed on the trade. Assuming he isn't going to jail.

3. (Unlikely thanks to high priced attorneys) His career is over and faces jail time. Best possible outcome for the Hawks is they would get to nullify his contract (via Mike Richards fiasco).

4. (Unknown) Trade him now, get terrific package back because of his MVP season and his resume.

I like #4, not because I hate him but because we cannot chance the other 2 (2&3) stronger possibilities. Yes he could reform but do we see anything from him that indicates this? I haven't and I'm sure, from a business perspective, he is being shadowed by some private investigator to determine his conduct since the last episode.

I hate to cause a stir but I think logically.



- gifman

Kane is going nowhere. If he is such a "liability", which I think is very much overblown, then why would another GM trade for him and give up a package of high quality assets? Major hole in you logic there. And is Rocky going to trade away the #2 selling jersey in the NHL and 50% of the face of the Blackhawks based on speculation? Heck no. The fan reaction would be a PR nightmare.

Who said that Elliott was the problem?

He was tired/had something wrong. We had a backup who they could count on starting in the playoffs. He had a good game, and a not so good game. Then they went back to Elliott as the 4 days off was what he needed.

Backes had a very good postseason. He was dealing with something the last few games, there was a reason that he sat out 2/3rds of game 4. Was the first time he really stepped up in the playoffs, nothing bad to say about him this year.
- carcus

Just different perspectives I guess Carcus.

I see a coach change a goalie after getting shut out two games in a row and it had nothing to do with tired/something wrong. Hitch pulled him in game 3 because he gave up 3 goals on 12 shots, even though I'm not sure any of them were truly his fault. He should have gone back to him NOT started Allen for 2 games. Just my opinion.

I will admit that this is the first year that Backes has not pulled his normal crap and dragged the team down. Backes was clearly dealing with something after sitting out the majority of game 4, but while he may have had a "decent" postseason overall, against the Sharks he had 1G and 1A, well below "decent". Tarasenko had zip, until 8 minutes left in the 3rd period of an elimination game where they trailed 4-0. Fabbri, who was tied for the scoring lead on the team in the playoffs was 9th among the forwards in TOI. I saw Brouwer making a difference out there. I saw Petro giving it everything. I saw a few to many guys not making a difference, and that is on the Captain and the Coach.

Saad was not going to sign for that amount. PERIOD!
Drop it. Saad will enjoy his money over his long summers. I hope his father doesn't waste it on women!
- powerenforcer

Speaking for vshun and myself, I think we are saying that $6M/yr would be well worth the cost to the Hawks and they could have dispensed of other valued players. JJ is already prepping us to lose some more of our beloved.

And two years ago, I remember thinking "Geez, Saad really looks good because he plays on a line with 19/81". From the results of last season, I believe I was sorely mistaken as he absolutely made those two dudes shine in 2014/15.

That's a big risk you take IF you think there's any chance of further "malfeasance." Maybe they don't.
- John Jaeckel

He certainly appeared to take this much more seriously than his previous incidents. He probably needs to sell that house in Buffalo and live with his girlfriend in Chicago full time. If he stays sober I would think he could manage to stay out of trouble.

Well, here's the deal, salary cap 1st world problems: the team lost not one, but TWO top 9 left wings last summer. Saad AND Sharp.

So, setting aside any Saad/Panarin comparison for a moment, if you lose Panarin you are a worse hockey team without question, and there is no "replacement."

Getting back to Saad, they are somewhat different players. Let's also remember that last year was Panarin's first in North America, with a huge language barrier.

He had a great rookie season and there is reason to believe he will get better. Points are not everything and Saad is a very good player without the puck, but Panarin isn't bad there either. I'm not sure I'm ready to say Panarin is a better player than Saad. But I am pretty sure he's every bit as valuable today and may be moreso going forward because he has some elite skill shooting, dangling and passing. And he wants to be better every year.
- John Jaeckel

Is there any way they can make TT train with him? Seems like Panarin lives at the gym in the offseason and that could do wonders for TT's physical development

This is not a fear thing for me it's a reality for me with Kane. He has had 3 strikes. Do we chance this with him? I say no, we don't. 4 scenarios are at play here:

1. (<50% chance) Kane changes and becomes the player and more importantly the person we all want him to be and everyone knows he can be. Then Blackhawk Nation will celebrate his glory.

2. (His history makes this above average chance)He gets in trouble again. 4th strike and we have to deal from a position where we have to. The team gets screwed on the trade. Assuming he isn't going to jail.

3. (Unlikely thanks to high priced attorneys) His career is over and faces jail time. Best possible outcome for the Hawks is they would get to nullify his contract (via Mike Richards fiasco).

4. (Unknown) Trade him now, get terrific package back because of his MVP season and his resume.

I like #4, not because I hate him but because we cannot chance the other 2 (2&3) stronger possibilities. Yes he could reform but do we see anything from him that indicates this? I haven't and I'm sure, from a business perspective, he is being shadowed by some private investigator to determine his conduct since the last episode.

I hate to cause a stir but I think logically.



- gifman

OK, AFAWK, last time Kane did anything illegal, and not just douche-y, was in 2009 when he was 20. Based on everything published and said (in several interviews) by the DA, it seems he was the subject of a false accusation last summer. (If she files a civil suit before the statute runs out in August, I may form a different opinion.) Wrong place, wrong time, wrong person, combined with too much alcohol. Maybe stupid (since he should have realized what a target he is), but nothing that people and other athletes aren't doing every hour of every day.

You have no idea what percentage chance of recidivism he has. I personally know many, many people (including myself) who behaved very differently in their late teens and 20's than they do late in 20's and after 30 (he is going to be 28). And, the vast majority of us didn't even have any "scared straight" incidents to steer us another direction. Less likely, IMO, that he does something again than another player who has never been publicly flayed.

Per social media, it appears that he has stayed in Chicago so far this summer, playing in a charity golf tourney the last few days. Smart decision not to go back to Buffalo, IMO. And, the social media environment being what it is these days, IF he were still carousing at the clubs and being a drunk, douche-y a-- as he has been in the past, it would be out there. Formal, published accounts are that he is not drinking, sticking close to home, and spending most of his time with his girlfriend. Just PR? Maybe, maybe not. But there are some indications of "reform."

But, as Enzo said, thinking like a business, he is too much of a moneymaker and NHL/fan favorite (not to mention, it seems his teammates love him) for the Hawks to send him packing for his "strikes."

Well, here's the deal, salary cap 1st world problems: the team lost not one, but TWO top 9 left wings last summer. Saad AND Sharp.

So, setting aside any Saad/Panarin comparison for a moment, if you lose Panarin you are a worse hockey team without question, and there is no "replacement."

Getting back to Saad, they are somewhat different players. Let's also remember that last year was Panarin's first in North America, with a huge language barrier.

He had a great rookie season and there is reason to believe he will get better. Points are not everything and Saad is a very good player without the puck, but Panarin isn't bad there either. I'm not sure I'm ready to say Panarin is a better player than Saad. But I am pretty sure he's every bit as valuable today and may be moreso going forward because he has some elite skill shooting, dangling and passing. And he wants to be better every year.
- John Jaeckel

Thanks for the response. Always thoughtful and spot on.

I think I am doing a poor job articulating my frustration. Very convenient of me to say in hindsight, but in a "would you rather" universe, I would've rather rolled the dice with Saad locked up long term and foregone AA and parted with another starter of value, be it Crawford or Shaw. This is just one hockey fan's opinion, and definitely one that doesn't have a lifetime of viewing experience. I am very late to the party and admit I could be way off base.

Maybe a different way of saying it is I LOVE Panarin, love his motor, love his upside. Love that he doesn't take fecal matter from people roughing up Kaner or his boys. He has some bigtime Ivan Drago nads downstairs. I am just thinking, "What stopped the Hawks from freeing up $2M/yr over six years to get Saad?" All signs point to them paying Panarin roughly the same coin for certain trades to aspects in their all around game.

All right, back to lurker mode, appreciate all the thoughts!

OK, AFAWK, last time Kane did anything illegal, and not just douche-y, was in 2009 when he was 20. Based on everything published and said (in several interviews) by the DA, it seems he was the subject of a false accusation last summer. (If she files a civil suit before the statute runs out in August, I may form a different opinion.) Wrong place, wrong time, wrong person, combined with too much alcohol. Maybe stupid (since he should have realized what a target he is), but nothing that people and other athletes aren't doing every hour of every day.

You have no idea what percentage chance of recidivism he has. I personally know many, many people (including myself) who behaved very differently in their late teens and 20's than they do late in 20's and after 30 (he is going to be 28). And, the vast majority of us didn't even have any "scared straight" incidents to steer us another direction. Less likely, IMO, that he does something again than another player who has never been publicly flayed.

Per social media, it appears that he has stayed in Chicago so far this summer, playing in a charity golf tourney the last few days. Smart decision not to go back to Buffalo, IMO. And, the social media environment being what it is these days, IF he were still carousing at the clubs and being a drunk, douche-y a-- as he has been in the past, it would be out there. Formal, published accounts are that he is not drinking, sticking close to home, and spending most of his time with his girlfriend. Just PR? Maybe, maybe not. But there are some indications of "reform."

But, as Enzo said, thinking like a business, he is too much of a moneymaker and NHL/fan favorite (not to mention, it seems his teammates love him) for the Hawks to send him packing for his "strikes."
- pdx2ord

I agree, he also wasn't out drinking in any of his normal hangouts all season, and like you said, social media has not spotted him out drunk since the season ended. Any public event I've seen him pictured at he has had his girlfriend right next to him. Staying out of Buffalo, away from that cousin, and generally avoiding bars all appear to have quite the positive affect.

I wouldn't be shocked if he sells the house in Buffalo and gets engaged to his girlfriend and McD will make sure all the beat writers are on it and that will be their PR way of saying, "he's actually matured this time."

On the last point, not only is he a fan favorite/money maker, is there a single player you can name who has shown up big time in playoff moments the way he does? People are pointing out how absent Tarasenko has been, Crosby and Malkin have both been shut down relatively effectively which is why Kessel is getting all the glory, etc. Watching Kane score that double OT goal off his own rebound, with a bum hand, after playing over 30 minutes in Game 5 is exactly why this team can't afford to lose him. Is there another player in the league who scores goals like that every playoff series he's in?

I agree, he also wasn't out drinking in any of his normal hangouts all season, and like you said, social media has not spotted him out drunk since the season ended. Any public event I've seen him pictured at he has had his girlfriend right next to him. Staying out of Buffalo, away from that cousin, and generally avoiding bars all appear to have quite the positive affect.

I wouldn't be shocked if he sells the house in Buffalo and gets engaged to his girlfriend and McD will make sure all the beat writers are on it and that will be their PR way of saying, "he's actually matured this time."

On the last point, not only is he a fan favorite/money maker, is there a single player you can name who has shown up big time in playoff moments the way he does? People are pointing out how absent Tarasenko has been, Crosby and Malkin have both been shut down relatively effectively which is why Kessel is getting all the glory, etc. Watching Kane score that double OT goal off his own rebound, with a bum hand, after playing over 30 minutes in Game 5 is exactly why this team can't afford to lose him. Is there another player in the league who scores goals like that every playoff series he's in?
- maria_wyeth

Oh for sure, replacing his skill and, in particular, his ability to show up when it matters the most would be very difficult, if not impossible, to do.

I agree, he also wasn't out drinking in any of his normal hangouts all season, and like you said, social media has not spotted him out drunk since the season ended. Any public event I've seen him pictured at he has had his girlfriend right next to him. Staying out of Buffalo, away from that cousin, and generally avoiding bars all appear to have quite the positive affect.

I wouldn't be shocked if he sells the house in Buffalo and gets engaged to his girlfriend and McD will make sure all the beat writers are on it and that will be their PR way of saying, "he's actually matured this time."

On the last point, not only is he a fan favorite/money maker, is there a single player you can name who has shown up big time in playoff moments the way he does? People are pointing out how absent Tarasenko has been, Crosby and Malkin have both been shut down relatively effectively which is why Kessel is getting all the glory, etc. Watching Kane score that double OT goal off his own rebound, with a bum hand, after playing over 30 minutes in Game 5 is exactly why this team can't afford to lose him. Is there another player in the league who scores goals like that every playoff series he's in?
- maria_wyeth

Showtime is a great nickname for him.
And he is just now entering his prime.
My prayer is he chooses hockey over partying because I think he can beat hockey, big time.

STAMKOS PROBABLE TONIGHT! GO BOLTS!

STAMKOS PROBABLE TONIGHT! GO BOLTS!
- EnzoD

Who's out?

Playing a guy in a game 7 who hasn't played in two months....

Thanks for the response. Always thoughtful and spot on.

I think I am doing a poor job articulating my frustration. Very convenient of me to say in hindsight, but in a "would you rather" universe, I would've rather rolled the dice with Saad locked up long term and foregone AA and parted with another starter of value, be it Crawford or Shaw. This is just one hockey fan's opinion, and definitely one that doesn't have a lifetime of viewing experience. I am very late to the party and admit I could be way off base.

Maybe a different way of saying it is I LOVE Panarin, love his motor, love his upside. Love that he doesn't take fecal matter from people roughing up Kaner or his boys. He has some bigtime Ivan Drago nads downstairs. I am just thinking, "What stopped the Hawks from freeing up $2M/yr over six years to get Saad?" All signs point to them paying Panarin roughly the same coin for certain trades to aspects in their all around game.

All right, back to lurker mode, appreciate all the thoughts!
- phantasmo

Thank you, jump in any time

That's correct, as I understand it. Congratulations, you've responded to a point I did not make.

What you responded to was my post that it is unusual for a team to carry three goaltenders—not because there is a rule against it (I am not aware of one) but because the third goalie would basically just be a wasted roster spot in most cases, better occupied by a skater who will likely play more.

If your implication is that three one-way contracts does not necessarily mean someone is getting traded, I looked into it last night and I think that's correct. And I like some others may have been living in a pre-2013 CBA mindset yesterday. Mea culpa there.

If you think that "pokes a hole" in the theory/whispers that Crawford might be dealt for cap reasons, that's incorrect. Those rumors have been out there from valid sources for over a year. The cap issues are what they are. The Panarin deal is a major concern for the team.
- John Jaeckel

Nope, pretty sure my post only addressed the contract differences between a one-way or two-contract.

There is no point to stand on....They weren't big money goalies before they won the Cup and that was the debate.

Quick wasn't a big money goalie when he won the first Cup and either was Crawford.

So you can't make the argument that for the most part big money goalies win...They don't. My point stands unless you find something that says otherwise...Teams that win the Cup and are successful for the long haul don't start off by signing a $6 or
$7million goalie.
- Al

I'll leave this alone after this post, Al. The author contends you can win a cup without a big money goalie. I say sure you can when an elite goalie is on his way UP the pay scale but not there yet and wins one on his ELC or RFA deal, like Crawford and Quick did.

No they weren't paid 6+ mil per when they won one of their cups but did after they EARNED their 6 mil deals (and elite status) as well.

My point is until, and I don't care what they're paid, a non "elite" (and I realize elite is subjective) goalie like Halak, Mason, Lethomen, Elliot, Gibson, Andersen, Anderson type wins one IMO you need an elite goalie. Last non-elite goalie to win a cup was Niemi with a completely loaded, hungry, not in cap hell Blackhawk club 7 years ago.

Now if you had an Elliot or Mason type with a club entering dynasty status today before the cap guts them like the 2010 Hawks I think they can win a cup, same as Niemi did.