Off topic and probably irritating, but can you comment on what you think the most fair Mathews trade would be. I've heard responses on why most proposals are ridiculous, but what would be fair? I think it centers around strome to fill their need for center. Obvious (but not enormous) gap between Mathews and strome, so to cover the gap you offer a highly rated prospect like Christian Fischer and the 20th overall pick. I could see both teams considering this. Maybe it's not enough and a roster player like rieder has to be thrown in. If you disagree with this proposal, what is your realistic counter?
- Dahlmanyotes

Realistically, there is no chance the Coyotes get Matthews without paying OEL + Strome and probably more. I would think Toronto laughs at the proposal of Strome, Fischer and a 20th overall picks.

To get Auston Matthews, you'd have to pay somewhere around what Colorado payed for Eric Lindros.

Hextall, Duchesne, Ricci, Kerry Huffman, Peter Forsberg, a first-round pick in the 1993 NHL Entry Draft, $15 million, and future considerations.

So Domingue, OEL, Reider, Strome, the 7th pick, and since the Leafs have no intention of taking $15 million dollars, probably Max Domi.

Obviously this trade would result in the Coyotes' franchise folding within a year, thus making the fact that AM is from Arizona completely irrelevant when the team ironically (given the Lindrosian nature of the trade) ends up in Quebec.

The Leafs are not going to be trading the pick and Arizona isn't going to gut their team, but still, I guess its fun to think about.

A quick look at their respective stats shows that Pysyk is way better than McCabe.
- James_Tanner

He's not way better. He isn't even better. McCabe has more to give every game.

Pysyk has better possession numbers in limited minutes, that's all he brings.

McCabe has a better offensive ceiling, more physical, and when both had there minutes bumped up with injury, McCabe looked the part. Pysyk did not

Realistically, there is no chance the Coyotes get Matthews without paying OEL + Strome and probably more. I would think Toronto laughs at the proposal of Strome, Fischer and a 20th overall picks.

To get Auston Matthews, you'd have to pay somewhere around what Colorado payed for Eric Lindros.

Hextall, Duchesne, Ricci, Kerry Huffman, Peter Forsberg, a first-round pick in the 1993 NHL Entry Draft, $15 million, and future considerations.

So Domingue, OEL, Reider, Strome, the 7th pick, and since the Leafs have no intention of taking $15 million dollars, probably Max Domi.

Obviously this trade would result in the Coyotes' franchise folding within a year, thus making the fact that AM is from Arizona completely irrelevant when the team ironically (given the Lindrosian nature of the trade) ends up in Quebec.

The Leafs are not going to be trading the pick and Arizona isn't going to gut their team, but still, I guess its fun to think about.
- James_Tanner

I completely agree there is no way AZ pays this, and it'd be a dumb trade, but I just don't understand why people think the gap between strome and Mathews would cost Domi and OEL. That seems ridiculous. I don't think the gap costs one, let alone both. Strome is an elite center, and the coyotes will be just fine if they keep him. MAYBE add in duclair and the 20th, but I definitely don't think it'd take more than that. Toronto would get a #1 center, a top 6 winger and likely a solid NHL caliber defenseman at #20. It builds out the lineup, without losing a ton going from Mathews to Strome. I think it'd be foolish for Toronto to not consider it. Can you give a good reason why you have the price so high?

Not sure this does it.Change it around abit more.
- nbboy

What about Strome, Duclair, and the 20th. If not that, then what's your counter?

All fans of all teams over value their players while under valuing other teams players, it's the fan nature of things, which isn't a bad thing, we should like our own players best.
McCabe led Buffalo in plus/minus for the season, Both him and Pysyk got stronger as the year went on. They each bring something a little bit different to the table, McCabe is a in your face type player with a sense of when to jump in offensively, Pysyk is the steady in his own end type with the ability to make the good outlet pass, Part of Pysyk's problem was who he had to team with, Franson, Coliaccovo, Weber.
If I'm Toronto, I would consider something in the way of Strome, Dvorak, Domingue, Stone, 7th pick this year, 2nd round this year and 2nd round next year for the right to draft Matthews and Jake Gardner.

I completely agree there is no way AZ pays this, and it'd be a dumb trade, but I just don't understand why people think the gap between strome and Mathews would cost Domi and OEL. That seems ridiculous. I don't think the gap costs one, let alone both. Strome is an elite center, and the coyotes will be just fine if they keep him. MAYBE add in duclair and the 20th, but I definitely don't think it'd take more than that. Toronto would get a #1 center, a top 6 winger and likely a solid NHL caliber defenseman at #20. It builds out the lineup, without losing a ton going from Mathews to Strome. I think it'd be foolish for Toronto to not consider it. Can you give a good reason why you have the price so high?
- Dahlmanyotes

Dylan Strome will be a good player. He could be Tavares good.

Auston Matthews is a freak. He could be Lemieux good.


Players like Matthews just don't come around very often. There is absolutely no reason to think he will be anything less than the Ovechkin to McDavid's Crosby.

All fans of all teams over value their players while under valuing other teams players, it's the fan nature of things, which isn't a bad thing, we should like our own players best.
McCabe led Buffalo in plus/minus for the season, Both him and Pysyk got stronger as the year went on. They each bring something a little bit different to the table, McCabe is a in your face type player with a sense of when to jump in offensively, Pysyk is the steady in his own end type with the ability to make the good outlet pass, Part of Pysyk's problem was who he had to team with, Franson, Coliaccovo, Weber.
If I'm Toronto, I would consider something in the way of Strome, Dvorak, Domingue, Stone, 7th pick this year, 2nd round this year and 2nd round next year for the right to draft Matthews and Jake Gardner.
- macman9

IF he also lead the team in steak dinners eaten on Wednesdays, that would be about the same level of relevancy as leading in plus minus. Just look at the wowys - Pysyk makes everyone he plays with better while people tend to get worse when McCabe plays.

Also, why would the Leafs include Gardiner, probably their best current player? Why would they take a bunch of average players in exchange for a guy who's career will be seen as a failure if he doesn't make the Hall of Fame?

If you take Gardiner out of that package and put OEL in , it's still doubtful Toronto would do that trade.

All fans of all teams over value their players while under valuing other teams players, it's the fan nature of things, which isn't a bad thing, we should like our own players best.
McCabe led Buffalo in plus/minus for the season, Both him and Pysyk got stronger as the year went on. They each bring something a little bit different to the table, McCabe is a in your face type player with a sense of when to jump in offensively, Pysyk is the steady in his own end type with the ability to make the good outlet pass, Part of Pysyk's problem was who he had to team with, Franson, Coliaccovo, Weber.
If I'm Toronto, I would consider something in the way of Strome, Dvorak, Domingue, Stone, 7th pick this year, 2nd round this year and 2nd round next year for the right to draft Matthews and Jake Gardner.
- macman9

Finally someone veing realistic! I don't think this is terribly off, although I would doubt you'd get both the 7th pick and Dvorak. Likely to be one or the other. But nonetheless at least a good proposal to work from, rather than all the ridiculous talk about OEL needing to also be included.

Another angle would be Strome and Domi, two spectacular players with ties to the org, plus some of the picks you discuss above, for gardiner and Mathews. Toronto would be set up for the long haul, and AZ would get the #1 center and defenseman they so covet.

Thanks for entertaining the subject realistically!!

IF he also lead the team in steak dinners eaten on Wednesdays, that would be about the same level of relevancy as leading in plus minus. Just look at the wowys - Pysyk makes everyone he plays with better while people tend to get worse when McCabe plays.

Also, why would the Leafs include Gardiner, probably their best current player? Why would they take a bunch of average players in exchange for a guy who's career will be seen as a failure if he doesn't make the Hall of Fame?

If you take Gardiner out of that package and put OEL in , it's still doubtful Toronto would do that trade.
- James_Tanner

Pysyk also led all Buffalo regulars in Penalties taken per 60 minutes because he is a tire fire in front or around his own net, and the only way he could handle someone bigger than him is to cross check or trip them.

Pysyk was given a very limited role because he is just that, very limited. Skates well, passes well, also is awful in some areas

A quick look at their respective stats shows that Pysyk is way better than McCabe.
- James_Tanner

And yet Pysyk played on the bottom pairing and McCabe was top 4...McCabe is younger...I guess a depth chart would have been a better thing to look at over stats. Not to mention if we are talking "respective stats" I would point out McCabe had more points and a better +/- and less penalties per 60 despite playing against tougher lines than Pysyk...so are we talking Corsi here or what?

Having watched every game I can safely say McCabe is the better of the two.

Dylan Strome will be a good player. He could be Tavares good.

Auston Matthews is a freak. He could be Lemieux good.


Players like Matthews just don't come around very often. There is absolutely no reason to think he will be anything less than the Ovechkin to McDavid's Crosby.
- James_Tanner

Building off you line of thinking, that means that you believe if the Capitals were somehow offered Tavares, OEL, Strome, Dvorak, and 2 first round picks, they wouldn't do it. That is completely ridiculous. Washington would execute that trade before the other team woke up to the reality of their stupidity. A Tavares for Ovechkin trade (equalizing age and contracts, etc) would cost almost nothing additional, and certainly not an elite defenseman like OEL, or a 3rd overall pick like Strome. Maybe a late first rounder or a top tier (not elite) prospect.

IF he also lead the team in steak dinners eaten on Wednesdays, that would be about the same level of relevancy as leading in plus minus. Just look at the wowys - Pysyk makes everyone he plays with better while people tend to get worse when McCabe plays.

Also, why would the Leafs include Gardiner, probably their best current player? Why would they take a bunch of average players in exchange for a guy who's career will be seen as a failure if he doesn't make the Hall of Fame?

If you take Gardiner out of that package and put OEL in , it's still doubtful Toronto would do that trade.
- James_Tanner

Of course this evaluation ( Pysyk ) is without barely watching a game right?

I won't even get into Gardiner, because in your world playing against Tom Wilson is the same as playing against Ovie.

Finally someone veing realistic! I don't think this is terribly off, although I would doubt you'd get both the 7th pick and Dvorak. Likely to be one or the other. But nonetheless at least a good proposal to work from, rather than all the ridiculous talk about OEL needing to also be included.

Another angle would be Strome and Domi, two spectacular players with ties to the org, plus some of the picks you discuss above, for gardiner and Mathews. Toronto would be set up for the long haul, and AZ would get the #1 center and defenseman they so covet.

Thanks for entertaining the subject realistically!!
- Dahlmanyotes

Or you just keep Matthews if you're TO.

IMO

Building off you line of thinking, that means that you believe if the Capitals were somehow offered Tavares, OEL, Strome, Dvorak, and 2 first round picks, they wouldn't do it. That is completely ridiculous. Washington would execute that trade before the other team woke up to the reality of their stupidity. A Tavares for Ovechkin trade (equalizing age and contracts, etc) would cost almost nothing additional, and certainly not an elite defenseman like OEL, or a 3rd overall pick like Strome. Maybe a late first rounder or a top tier (not elite) prospect.
- Dahlmanyotes

How are you trading Tavares OEL Strome and Dvorak for Ovie?

Moral of the story, we will take a blue chip prospect and 2 firsts for Pysyk. Tanner agrees he's a freak.

Moral of the story, we will take a blue chip prospect and 2 firsts for Pysyk. Tanner agrees he's a freak.
- RhinoFan

I think Tanner said "cheap" didn't he?

But he graded him without watching....

I think Tanner said "cheap" didn't he?

But he graded him without watching....
- Garnie

Of course, the blue collar prospect and a couple firsts is a cheap price to pay for a guy who literally "makes everyone around him better". Like you said, he graded it without watching, the trade proposal is a joke because the assessment is as well.

How are you trading Tavares OEL Strome and Dvorak for Ovie?
- Garnie

Tanner said Mathews is like Ovechkin and Strome is like Tavares. And then proceeded to say that Toronto wouldn't trade Mathews for Strome, Dvorak, OEL, and first round picks. So I am simply saying his analogy, and therefore conclusion, is off. If the Tavares and Ovechkin analogy is accurate, then his price tag for the trade is way off.

Finally someone veing realistic! I don't think this is terribly off, although I would doubt you'd get both the 7th pick and Dvorak. Likely to be one or the other. But nonetheless at least a good proposal to work from, rather than all the ridiculous talk about OEL needing to also be included.

Another angle would be Strome and Domi, two spectacular players with ties to the org, plus some of the picks you discuss above, for gardiner and Mathews. Toronto would be set up for the long haul, and AZ would get the #1 center and defenseman they so covet.

Thanks for entertaining the subject realistically!!
- Dahlmanyotes

The only one here entertaining this subject realistically is me.

The Leafs are not trading the pick - 100% chance they select Matthews.

But, if a trade were to go down - which it wouldn't - it would be like the Lindros trade. A trade that may well have actually worked out for Quebec more than the team that got Lindros.

If the Coyotes paid what it would actually cost to get Toronto to pass on a guy who has a chance to be an all-time player, they would ruin their team.

But, just hypothetically speaking, if a trade were to occur, Toronto isn't taking dime-a-dozen- good players like Domi and Strome. They are taking the Hall of fame D man and a hell of a lot more. (to balance out for the fact they already missed out on 7 years of OEL's career).

Which is why there can not be a trade - what it would cost to get the Leafs to pass on Matthews would be way more than any team would ever pay.

The idea they'd pass up a generational player in exchange for a couple really good players is preposterous.

Building off you line of thinking, that means that you believe if the Capitals were somehow offered Tavares, OEL, Strome, Dvorak, and 2 first round picks, they wouldn't do it. That is completely ridiculous. Washington would execute that trade before the other team woke up to the reality of their stupidity. A Tavares for Ovechkin trade (equalizing age and contracts, etc) would cost almost nothing additional, and certainly not an elite defenseman like OEL, or a 3rd overall pick like Strome. Maybe a late first rounder or a top tier (not elite) prospect.
- Dahlmanyotes

Well in your hypothetical situation, if Ovechkin is 18 you don't trade him for anything. Keep in mind we're talking about the best scorer in NHL history, adjusted for era.

When you trade five for one, people never think of the other 4 players you can play in stead of the guys you don't acquire. Ovechkin + 4 randos probably does beat that package.

Of course this evaluation ( Pysyk ) is without barely watching a game right?

I won't even get into Gardiner, because in your world playing against Tom Wilson is the same as playing against Ovie.
- Garnie

No, but in my world, which is the real world, where everything I say can be empirically validated, it is next to impossible to get long-term edges in terms of playing against weak opponents, and more often than not, when you do play weaker opponents, you also have weaker teammates.

This is why when you measure the strength of opponents, it's almost always the same. The Corsi of Gardiner's and Rielly's respective opponents all season long is basically the same. This means that they faced the exact same competition.

As you've pointed out, I believe Rielly had a ton of mins against Ovechkin vs Gardiner barely any. This is why anecdotal evidence is meaningless. Clearly the Leafs wanted to intentionally have Rielly face the league's best player and so made sure it happened. However, considering that over 82 games they faced the same competition, there were obviously times when they played a team and the opposite occurred.

The best minds in the NHL have crunched the numbers and determined that over-time, it is so difficult to get a favorable matchup that in most cases zone starts and matchups don't really matter.

People who do good at the bottom of the lineup tend to do the same when given more ice time. The game is not as delineated as you think, much more fluid, so all players tend to get out against all players. Sure, there is sheltering and there are examples when this isn't true. But essentially, qoc doesn't matter.

Of course, the blue collar prospect and a couple firsts is a cheap price to pay for a guy who literally "makes everyone around him better". Like you said, he graded it without watching, the trade proposal is a joke because the assessment is as well.
- RhinoFan

Not really, this is just a real life example of how player's get undervalued. You think McCabe is a better player, and probably so does the coaching staff that plays him ahead of Pysyk. (Or even more likely, the coaching staff has higher hopes for McCabe and wants to use him higher up even they probably do know who is currently the better player).

But he isn't and the stats prove it. End of story. Doesn't matter what you say, what you see with your eyes or whatever. The fact is, Pysyk is a low-event player who is solid and helps his team win. Those players are almost always underrated by fans who overrate high event players with constant regularity.

Not really, this is just a real life example of how player's get undervalued. You think McCabe is a better player, and probably so does the coaching staff that plays him ahead of Pysyk. (Or even more likely, the coaching staff has higher hopes for McCabe and wants to use him higher up even they probably do know who is currently the better player).

But he isn't and the stats prove it. End of story. Doesn't matter what you say, what you see with your eyes or whatever. The fact is, Pysyk is a low-event player who is solid and helps his team win. Those players are almost always underrated by fans who overrate high event players with constant regularity.
- James_Tanner

Nah, the stats just don't tell the story in this case. McCabe is better. Pysyk does some things well for a 3rd pairing D man. He also is bad in some areas. Again he takes a lot of penalties because he sucks brutally in front of the net and in the corners. He also gives almost no offense. McCabe will be the better player for a long time

The only one here entertaining this subject realistically is me.

The Leafs are not trading the pick - 100% chance they select Matthews.

But, if a trade were to go down - which it wouldn't - it would be like the Lindros trade. A trade that may well have actually worked out for Quebec more than the team that got Lindros.

If the Coyotes paid what it would actually cost to get Toronto to pass on a guy who has a chance to be an all-time player, they would ruin their team.

But, just hypothetically speaking, if a trade were to occur, Toronto isn't taking dime-a-dozen- good players like Domi and Strome. They are taking the Hall of fame D man and a hell of a lot more. (to balance out for the fact they already missed out on 7 years of OEL's career).

Which is why there can not be a trade - what it would cost to get the Leafs to pass on Matthews would be way more than any team would ever pay.

The idea they'd pass up a generational player in exchange for a couple really good players is preposterous.
- James_Tanner

If a Generational player only comes around so often , how come there are so many of them all of a sudden ?

If Mathews is a generational talent, what does that make McDavid? On Par?

If a Generational player only comes around so often , how come there are so many of them all of a sudden ?

If Mathews is a generational talent, what does that make McDavid? On Par?
- Jeropotato

It's funny too, last year Eichel and McDavid were both considered generational talents (McDavid obviously better) but now since Matthews is headed to Toronto, it seems like he's clearly much better than Eichel