Are there any third party payments in the NHL? If so are they counted in anyway on the teams cap?
- Aussiepenguin

What exactly do you mean by third party payments?

What exactly do you mean by third party payments?
- Victoro311

Money given to a player outside the organisation. So a UFA next season starts talking $ with us but gets a better offer from the Rags (just an example), but then 66 gets 1 of his rich buddies to jump in with a private sponsorship if you like over the period of the contract that will equal what the Rags offered.

We have them here but there are very specific limitations on them & they don't count against the cap because it's not the club directly paying them.

that's straight up cap circumvention & very very much frowned upon by the league.

Money given to a player outside the organisation. So a UFA next season starts talking $ with us but gets a better offer from the Rags (just an example), but then 66 gets 1 of his rich buddies to jump in with a private sponsorship if you like over the period of the contract that will equal what the Rags offered.

We have them here but there are very specific limitations on them & they don't count against the cap because it's not the club directly paying them.
- Aussiepenguin

This isn't FIFA. People would lose jobs/get kicked out of the league if that were to happen.

This isn't FIFA. People would lose jobs/get kicked out of the league if that were to happen.
- Victoro311

It might actually be illegal too.

that's straight up cap circumvention & very very much frowned upon by the league.
- ScienceJesus

As I said, there are very strict rules regarding the payments (still, there are a few clubs that get caught doing the wrong thing - some worse than others!!).

So in that response, the team contracts are the only $ a player can earn. What about private sponsorship? If a team organises Reebok for example to sponsor - let's say Shultz, is that allowed?

This isn't FIFA. People would lose jobs/get kicked out of the league if that were to happen.
- Victoro311

It's 'supposedly' controlled, & seen as a way to give top players more money & keep them from going to rugby union in Europe for bigger $.

I don't see the big deal, & it's 1000000000% NOT FIFA.

Keep in mind, our top elite players earn about 1m per year at best! Contracts are usually around 4 years for good players less for lesser players. Elite players play from about 18 years old till 32 - 33 years old.

As I said, there are very strict rules regarding the payments (still, there are a few clubs that get caught doing the wrong thing - some worse than others!!).

So in that response, the team contracts are the only $ a player can earn. What about private sponsorship? If a team organises Reebok for example to sponsor - let's say Shultz, is that allowed?
- Aussiepenguin

That's an enforcement but no one is going to indorse Justin Schultz. No little kid picking out his first pair of skates is going to grab a pair of Reebok's off the shelf at D¡ck's because "the worst player in the NHL" sports Reebocks

Anyways, funny I brought this up because Yohe just reported in the insider this morning that no one in the world is happier than Justin Schultz to be in Pittsburgh. If managment's wants him, they've got him. And both DK and Johe have reported several times that management wants him.

It's 'supposedly' controlled, & seen as a way to give top players more money & keep them from going to rugby union in Europe for bigger $.

I don't see the big deal, & it's 1000000000% NOT FIFA.
- Aussiepenguin

The big deal, as Sience Jesus pointed out, is cap circumvention. It would allow teams with the most "rich friends" and money at their disposal to buy the best teams. It's why I can't watch sports with no salary cap like the MLB, and why paying athletes would be the death of NCAA football. It destroys parity.

That's an enforcement but no one is going to indorse Justin Schultz. No little kid picking out his first pair of skates is going to grab a pair of Reebok's off the shelf at D¡ck's because "the worst player in the NHL" sports Reebocks

Anyways, funny I brought this up because Yohe just reported in the insider this morning that no one in the world is happier than Justin Schultz to be in Pittsburgh. If managment's wants him, they've got him. And both DK and Johe have reported several times that management wants him.
- Victoro311

I'm using Shultz as an example you putz! Let's say.......Murray or Dumo?

If the Pens organise a sponsorship/endorsement does it count on the cap?

The big deal, as Sience Jesus pointed out, is cap circumvention. It would allow teams with the most "rich friends" and money at their disposal to buy the best teams. It's why I can't watch sports with no salary cap like the MLB, and why paying athletes would be the death of NCAA football. It destroys parity.
- Victoro311

There are rules & strict regulations controlling it. They are there to give the elite players more money not build teams around the cap limits which we also have.

There are rules & strict regulations controlling it. They are there to give the elite players more money not build teams around the cap limits which we also have.
- Aussiepenguin

Teams aren't allowed to lobby for endorsement deals for their players. Agents are allowed to do so, but teams aren't allowed to be in that business at all. And endorsement deals also require the player to actually DO something. Be it sell his likeness for the front of a product, sell his own endorsement of a product, do commercials for a product or business, etc. and no company, even if they're friends of an owner, is going to product products or commercials or whatever that they can't sell or have no intention of selling/using.

But teams aren't allowed to be involved at all with the endorsement end of the business for athletes. It's cap circumvention & possibly illegal (depending on how it's done to hide it from the league). And any team that got caught even being involved would probably suffer some serious penalties from the league, play any potential legal issues that would go along with it.

I'm using Shultz as an example you putz! Let's say.......Murray or Dumo?

If the Pens organise a sponsorship/endorsement does it count on the cap?
- Aussiepenguin

No endorcements don't count against the cap. To begin with I don't think individual franchises have much pull on firms when it comes to firms making a buisness decision on inducements. Let's say the Penguens call up what ever company makes Matt Murray's goalie pads and tells them that they should sponcer Matt Murray. First of all, if the firm doesn't think Matt Murray is marketable they'll just hang up on the Pens. Second of all, if the firm does decide to sponsor Murray and the player and the firm ink a deal, that deal is not contingent on Murray being a Penguin. He might be thankful to the Penguins for setting up the deal and that might make him want to stay around more, but the Penguins can't lowball Murray and use the reasoning "you're really making X amount of money this year. This much is coming from your paycheck and this much is coming from your enforcement deal." That doesn't work because Murray can say "well I'm gonna make X amount of money from the endorsement wherever I play, so I'm going to go to this team that's going to pay me X more than the Pens."

Teams aren't allowed to lobby for endorsement deals for their players. Agents are allowed to do so, but teams aren't allowed to be in that business at all. And endorsement deals also require the player to actually DO something. Be it sell his likeness for the front of a product, sell his own endorsement of a product, do commercials for a product or business, etc. and no company, even if they're friends of an owner, is going to product products or commercials or whatever that they can't sell or have no intention of selling/using.

But teams aren't allowed to be involved at all with the endorsement end of the business for athletes. It's cap circumvention & possibly illegal (depending on how it's done to hide it from the league). And any team that got caught even being involved would probably suffer some serious penalties from the league, play any potential legal issues that would go along with it.
- ScienceJesus

Ok all good. So contract money is the only money & it's all counted against a teams cap. That's simple & easy. It just gets all (frank)ed up when schleprocks get paid like very good players forcing the salaries up all over the place.

Teams aren't allowed to lobby for endorsement deals for their players. Agents are allowed to do so, but teams aren't allowed to be in that business at all. And endorsement deals also require the player to actually DO something. Be it sell his likeness for the front of a product, sell his own endorsement of a product, do commercials for a product or business, etc. and no company, even if they're friends of an owner, is going to product products or commercials or whatever that they can't sell or have no intention of selling/using.

But teams aren't allowed to be involved at all with the endorsement end of the business for athletes. It's cap circumvention & possibly illegal (depending on how it's done to hide it from the league). And any team that got caught even being involved would probably suffer some serious penalties from the league, play any potential legal issues that would go along with it.
- ScienceJesus

Well I didn't know franchises weren't allowed to help negotiate enforcements, but same general reasoning.

Those days when you wake up and realize the Pens have Carl Hagelin for 3 more years.

Those days when you wake up and realize the Pens have Carl Hagelin for 3 more years.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

And Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Kessel basically until they retire

Well I didn't know franchises weren't allowed to help negotiate enforcements, but same general reasoning.
- Victoro311

Yeah. I'm not 100% sure on if teams are completely not permitted from being involved, but I'm fairly certain. Not only that, but they don't WANT to be involved there. They leave that up to the player's agent to explore. They might tell the agent "we got a call from X company looking for a player that might be interested in endorsing something so we just wanted to pass it on to you" but they don't want to be in that business (if something goes wrong in the deal between company & player). The league doesn't want teams in that business (to prevent cap circumvention). Agents don't want teams in that business (cause that's their job & they don't get their 10% on deals they don't negotiate for their clients).

No endorcements don't count against the cap. To begin with I don't think individual franchises have much pull on firms when it comes to firms making a buisness decision on inducements. Let's say the Penguens call up what ever company makes Matt Murray's goalie pads and tells them that they should sponcer Matt Murray. First of all, if the firm doesn't think Matt Murray is marketable they'll just hang up on the Pens. Second of all, if the firm does decide to sponsor Murray and the player and the firm ink a deal, that deal is not contingent on Murray being a Penguin. He might be thankful to the Penguins for setting up the deal and that might make him want to stay around more, but the Penguins can't lowball Murray and use the reasoning "you're really making X amount of money this year. This much is coming from your paycheck and this much is coming from your enforcement deal." That doesn't work because Murray can say "well I'm gonna make X amount of money from the endorsement wherever I play, so I'm going to go to this team that's going to pay me X more than the Pens."
- Victoro311

An endorsement would be on the condition he stays with the Pens. In Reeboks case they have strategic endorsements throughout the U.S. & Canada with players promoting their equipment. They don't want Murray playing in Detroit when they have another player there sponsored - as an example.

It's pretty clear the $ the players get from their contracts is good coin, & it's different in the fact it's a 'set value' type of salary where there are certain contracts for different levels of players (if my understanding is correct). Lower end players get low end money that is set out in the agreement, middle then top. Not sure what ramifications if any occur when guys like D. Englend get 2.5m per which would exceed his pay grade I imagine??

Those days when you wake up and realize the Pens have Carl Hagelin for 3 more years.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

I remember people complaining about his salary.

I remember people complaining about his salary.
- madmike71

100%, before he proved he could actually shoot!

Amazing the turnaround in a player when you put him in another team.

I remember people complaining about his salary.
- madmike71

I was a Kessel complainer until the last 3 or 4 weeks of the regular season. When the games started really mattering he stepped it up, just like the playoffs. So in saying this, I'll probably start disliking him around Christmas time next season...but now I know that this guy comes to play when things are on the line. His effort levels when things aren't on the line will still frustrate from time to time though, no doubt.

An endorsement would be on the condition he stays with the Pens. In Reeboks case they have strategic endorsements throughout the U.S. & Canada with players promoting their equipment. They don't want Murray playing in Detroit when they have another player there sponsored - as an example.

It's pretty clear the $ the players get from their contracts is good coin, & it's different in the fact it's a 'set value' type of salary where there are certain contracts for different levels of players (if my understanding is correct). Lower end players get low end money that is set out in the agreement, middle then top. Not sure what ramifications if any occur when guys like D. Englend get 2.5m per which would exceed his pay grade I imagine??
- Aussiepenguin

No agent on the planet would let their client sign an endorsement deal with a company that has a clause requiring him to stay in X market or with X team. Not only because it is an automatic-out for the company but also because it limits their client's bargaining power in negotiations with 3rd parties. Plus, it also possibly puts their client & the agent in a position where they're at risk for being sued for breech of contract just because they didn't accept a low-ball playing contract from a team the knew "you can't sign elsewhere because your endorsement deal doesn't let you". Also, pretty sure that's illegal under US employment law.

On the issue of guys getting overpaid? Yeah, it sometimes impacts other signings & arbitration awards, but a guy like Engallend getting wildly overpaid is a situation where everyone can look at it & say "someone made a mistake somewhere" & ignore it. Only the most hard-ball of agents or stubborn arbitrators would think that was an actual data point to use & not a weird outlier.

An endorsement would be on the condition he stays with the Pens. In Reeboks case they have strategic endorsements throughout the U.S. & Canada with players promoting their equipment. They don't want Murray playing in Detroit when they have another player there sponsored - as an example.

It's pretty clear the $ the players get from their contracts is good coin, & it's different in the fact it's a 'set value' type of salary where there are certain contracts for different levels of players (if my understanding is correct). Lower end players get low end money that is set out in the agreement, middle then top. Not sure what ramifications if any occur when guys like D. Englend get 2.5m per which would exceed his pay grade I imagine??
- Aussiepenguin

Big sports equipment companies don't really do that. Local enforcements are useful if you're doing local commercials but big firms aren't going to do that. Big sports equipment firms have their "team" that they use for nationwide advertisement campaigns. They get guys with national appeal, not fan favorites that they can use for small scale local advertisement campaigns.

I was a Kessel complainer until the last 3 or 4 weeks of the regular season. When the games started really mattering he stepped it up, just like the playoffs. So in saying this, I'll probably start disliking him around Christmas time next season...but now I know that this guy comes to play when things are on the line. His effort levels when things aren't on the line will still frustrate from time to time though, no doubt.
- MattStrat

He was playing terrible in ANA and it looked like a bad deal if that continued for the next 3 years. But everyone had him pegged on Malkin's line with Kessel. Nobody thought the HBK line would be a top force in the playoffs.