make an argument without bringing up production

lots of guys can put the puck in the net.... but lots of those guys also play relentless defense.

if all you do is score... (frank) off... you arent a complete hockey player... you are a high level pond hockey player

much rather have guys who back check like nuts and make sure their job is done without the puck as well

thats not kessel
- Dozzer

Did Bure backcheck?

Does Kane backcheck?

Did Selanne backcheck?

Did Tkachuk backcheck?

Did LeClair backcheck?

Did Mogilny backcheck?

Did Lafleur backcheck?

scoring goals is how you win games lol
- daeth

no

playing defense is how you win games

i dont disagree... however salary vs role is huge in a cap system

the pens are going for it... i get that... bu moving forward they are going to have to do some clever cap work... especially if they are paying that much for a 3rd line winger.
- Dozzer

I really feel that they need to start thinking about moving Malkin for some good NHL youth and picks. They have to start replenishing the system at some point. Malkin snd Fleury could be a great jump start for that regardless of what happens these playoffs.

Did Bure backcheck?

Does Kane backcheck?

Did Selanne backcheck?

Did Tkachuk backcheck?

Did LeClair backcheck?

Did Mogilny backcheck?

Did Lafleur backcheck?
- Atomic Wedgie

kane: yes

selanne and tkachuk: absolutely yes

bure mogilny and lafleur... all played in a different time

for them to have the same success nowadays they would have to play relentless defense as well.

I think that with the right combination of scoring, defense and goaltending, a team can ensure that they put the puck in more times than the opposing team by scoring goals while at the same time defending and making sure that the opposing team scores less total goals.

kane: yes

selanne and tkachuk: absolutely yes

bure mogilny and lafleur... all played in a different time

for them to have the same success nowadays they would have to play relentless defense as well.
- Dozzer

Kane floats.

Tkachuk was the most selfish player in the history of the game - on ice and off.

It's hilarious that you are defending Tkachuk. If he was a Leaf during his prime, your head would have exploded.

The fans nicknamed him GSP - that stood for Gravy-Sucking Pig.

Laine's gonna just poop on everyone who's talking poop to him in the 1st period.

I think that with the right combination of scoring, defense and goaltending, a team can ensure that they put the puck in more times than the opposing team by scoring goals while at the same time defending and making sure that the opposing team scores less total goals.
- TheMussel

It's people like you, with your complex systems, who are killing the game of hockey.

Just let the kids play!

no

playing defense is how you win games
- Dozzer

if nobody scored goals we'd still be waiting for OT to finish in the first sudden death OT game in NHL history

Sorry step in here but why is this a debate?

Can we not agree were in a great position going forward and that trading Kessel and Phaneuf helped get us here?

Sure Kessel looks great on the pens. But on the Leafs he wouldn't even be playing a playoff game. So why bother bringing his playoff performance up?

I for one want either the Sharks or Kessel to win a cup. Love Kessel and miss kessel, never was a hater, but we're in a better position without him. And the wallet.
- systemtool

We wont remember Kessel's name in 3 years.

I think that with the right combination of scoring, defense and goaltending, a team can ensure that they put the puck in more times than the opposing team by scoring goals while at the same time defending and making sure that the opposing team scores less total goals.
- TheMussel

The problem is that opposing teams know to pressure and pinch on Kessel's wing. They know they will almost always get to the puck first on the right half boards, and they know Kessel won't hit them. This allows them to keep the pressure on and take a second or two to reset and keep the cycle going. Kessel will mostly just stand there waiting for the puck to magically land on his stick (magically = his line mates working their asses off to cover his lazy d-zone play and passing the puck to him).

if nobody scored goals we'd still be waiting for OT to finish in the first sudden death OT game in NHL history
- daeth

scoring today is based out of being able to transition out of playing defense quickly and fluidly

everything today starts with good defense... everything

without it you can have all the offensive talent in the world and still fail miserably if you have below average defense and a poor transition game

see: edmonton oilers

make an argument without bringing up production

lots of guys can put the puck in the net.... but lots of those guys also play relentless defense.

if all you do is score... (frank) off... you arent a complete hockey player... you are a high level pond hockey player

much rather have guys who back check like nuts and make sure their job is done without the puck as well

thats not kessel
- Dozzer

I don't agree.

Patrick Kane play defense or block a shot? No

Mike Bossy? No

It's great to have guys who can play defense but you also need guys to generate something out of nothing.

Kessel is one of those guys.

Kane floats.

Tkachuk was the most selfish player in the history of the game - on ice and off.

It's hilarious that you are defending Tkachuk. If he was a Leaf during his prime, your head would have exploded.

The fans nicknamed him GSP - that stood for Gravy-Sucking Pig.
- Atomic Wedgie

tkachuk was a Richard... but he played hard and aggressive.

personality has nothing to do with this.

Sweden/Russia getting a little nasty. Backlund nailed Kuznetsov apparently.

I don't agree.

Patrick Kane play defense or block a shot? No

Mike Bossy? No

It's great to have guys who can play defense but you also need guys to generate something out of nothing.

Kessel is one of those guys.
- Rang

kane isnt third line.... and there is reason panik is on that line... to compensate for kane.. (i still think his back checking is fine and far better than kessel either way)

bossy... once again... the game was completely different when he played... you cant use those guys from that era as a comparison.

scoring today is based out of being able to transition out of playing defense quickly and fluidly

everything today starts with good defense... everything

without it you can have all the offensive talent in the world and still fail miserably if you have below average defense and a poor transition game

see: edmonton oilers
- Dozzer

But the Pens might win the cup with Kessel.

You pretty much need a balanced team but there's absolutely room for pure offense guys in the NHL right now. Your entire team doesn't have to be filled with Toews type guys. You need guys who can score. You need guys who can play defense. You need guys who can do both too.

Kessel was a point a game as the go-to player on the Leafs. He's now the top playoff point producer on a legitimate cup contender in the ECF in a lesser role. The guy is just good. Really good. This is why I always said you can win with Kessel. If you build a team right he's fine on your roster.
- daeth

I agree that he's fine when he's a complimentary piece as he is in Pitts. He's a guy you add when you want to get over the hump.

Not the guy you start a rebuild with.

tkachuk was a Richard... but he played hard and aggressive.

personality has nothing to do with this.
- Dozzer

He played hard and aggressive from the red line in.

scoring today is based out of being able to transition out of playing defense quickly and fluidly

everything today starts with good defense... everything

without it you can have all the offensive talent in the world and still fail miserably if you have below average defense and a poor transition game

see: edmonton oilers
- Dozzer

See: New Jersey Devils the last few years. Great team defense but no offensive creativity.

Same with St. Louis until this year.

In my opinion you don't trade proven offensive talent. It's too hard to come by.

Sweden/Russia getting a little nasty. Backlund nailed Kuznetsov apparently.
- Phenom

i hope russia gets embarrassed on home ice, agian...

Talbot.

I agree that he's fine when he's a complimentary piece as he is in Pitts. He's a guy you add when you want to get over the hump.

Not the guy you start a rebuild with.
- Aaron_85

You probably don't draft Matthews if Kessel is in the lineup so there's that. I wouldn't mind having Kessel on the team now that they seem to have their #1C but that's obviously not possible.

See: New Jersey Devils the last few years. Great team defense but no offensive creativity.

Same with St. Louis until this year.

In my opinion you don't trade proven offensive talent. It's too hard to come by.
- Rang

well thats the leafs model..

draft the guy with the most skill.. trade for other things later..

i hope russia gets embarrassed on home ice, agian...
- Arctic_AARDVARK

They're up 3-0.