J
The other team I think could be CC going to TOR who will have a TON of cap room, Matthews and other young players (Marner, Nylander) in the fold. A vet goalie can go a long way there

You may be able to do a bigger deal with them -
Rights to RFA Shaw (2mil last year)
CC - 6mil
Bickell (4mil)

for -
Bernier (last year of 4.15)
JVR - (4.25 x 2)


The Bernier for Bickell is a wash of 4mil/last year of bad contracts...and Hawks get a backup

So it's essentially Shaw's rights and Crow for JVR.

For TOR...they get the goalie. While they lose JVR (old regime trade), they have a young top 6 next year of Matthews, Kadri, Marner, Nylander, Kapanen....and Stamkos

Lamoriello has always been a Crawford fan and this is a trade that can help both teams
- PatShart

Honestly, I don’t hate the deal. But…

Andersen, a TB goalie or even fleury might also be available. I'd rather see picks/prospects traded for a goalie and jvr held on to or traded for a dman.

I think Bickell probably does negate anything additional

Would CC waive for Toronto? Or I wonder if Stamkos ending up there would make him more likely to do so?
- maria_wyeth

That is the kicker, for sure. Def tough to say, but Toronto (as a hockey market) certainly has its added benefits to potentially outweigh what will likely be another year or two of less than ideal records (though their depth and adding Matthews and possibly Stamkos could accelerate that a bit)... One of the largest and wealthiest franchises in NHL (purely by cash assets) and a very strong hockey market where he'd come in as a multi-cup Vezina quality CANADIAN goaltender and would immediately be one of the big names in Toronto (behind Stamkos)... Endorsement money alone could be a deal changer. Certainly an interesting trade... We shall see what ultimately happens.

Some sense? It makes no sense for the Flyers. It may for the Blackhawks if they're trying to lower their cap hit, but that's about it.

I have no idea what Mason and Neuvirth did before they got to Philly, but I'll accept that neither has ever won a series. But now you accept that it wouldn't have mattered who the Flyers had in net this last series because when you get shut out twice and score 1 goal twice...odds are you're going to lose. Which, using logic, should mean that it makes more sense to upgrade somewhere else.

Crawford won 2 cups. He's good. But they didn't win those cups because of him. And they also won 1 with Nieme (?). They won 2 out of the 3 with low dollars allocated to goalie. Who are the highest paid goaltenders in the league? Have any of them won a cup while at that high salary? Your whole article just assumes that other teams want the Blackhawks pieces that they can't afford anymore. High priced goalies are not worth it anymore. Not just Crawford...anybody. I'd rather have an elite defense with an average goalie than the other way around. And he's not even elite.

And I just went over to more of my sources that are in the offices. They also agreed. Tomorrow I'll check the the cafeteria guy, but him and I are usually on the same page.
- wolphnuts12

I would say that the 2015 cup was in LARGE part because of Crawford. 2013 had a stronger team in front of him but it's arguable whether they win that year with a lesser goalie (I think Kane even said that Crawford should have gotten the Conn Smythe that year instead of him)

Crawford is elite. If you don't think he is, which goalies would you say are?

That is the kicker, for sure. Def tough to say, but Toronto (as a hockey market) certainly has its added benefits to potentially outweigh what will likely be another year or two of less than ideal records (though their depth and adding Matthews and possibly Stamkos could accelerate that a bit)... One of the largest and wealthiest franchises in NHL (purely by cash assets) and a very strong hockey market where he'd come in as a multi-cup Vezina quality CANADIAN goaltender and would immediately be one of the big names in Toronto (behind Stamkos)... Endorsement money alone could be a deal changer. Certainly an interesting trade... We shall see what ultimately happens.
- Frenchy4488

That's the wrench in all of this - would Crow waive to go? The Leafs need a couple more years to be in contention... I wonder what he would do?

Some sense? It makes no sense for the Flyers. It may for the Blackhawks if they're trying to lower their cap hit, but that's about it.

I have no idea what Mason and Neuvirth did before they got to Philly, but I'll accept that neither has ever won a series. But now you accept that it wouldn't have mattered who the Flyers had in net this last series because when you get shut out twice and score 1 goal twice...odds are you're going to lose. Which, using logic, should mean that it makes more sense to upgrade somewhere else.

Crawford won 2 cups. He's good. But they didn't win those cups because of him. And they also won 1 with Nieme (?). They won 2 out of the 3 with low dollars allocated to goalie. Who are the highest paid goaltenders in the league? Have any of them won a cup while at that high salary? Your whole article just assumes that other teams want the Blackhawks pieces that they can't afford anymore. High priced goalies are not worth it anymore. Not just Crawford...anybody. I'd rather have an elite defense with an average goalie than the other way around. And he's not even elite.

And I just went over to more of my sources that are in the offices. They also agreed. Tomorrow I'll check the the cafeteria guy, but him and I are usually on the same page.
- wolphnuts12

Too bad the Flyers have a 1 good NHL defenseman (The Ghost) and two sieves in the blue paint. Good luck!

The difference between any one year high to low is 50% so If you pay 1 mil one year the most you can pay him any other year is 2 MIL. IE k and T being paid 13.5 mil this year but only 6.75 in there last year. If stan does Bick at 5, 5, 2.5,2.5 do you think we would have a hard time getting a taker. I can't blame him for giving the contract but on a team up against the Cap you have to front load to the max to A get them to take a lesser $ amount and B to make it easier for a budget team to take.

the turning points of the franchise were:
Trading leddy instead of Roz, Which made us give up 2 seconds for someone that was horrible.
Not moving, Bick, Steeg, sharp at the draft which forced us to lose SAAD for a guy that is only making 1.5 less and we lose Johns, and Palliota, Danult, because of the problems with the roster. so now we have no depth to move anyone else.

I don't mind trades not working out to our favor but I do mind is having a 100 person front office and looking back and look like they did not have a plan.
- kmw4631

Correct but Hossa's contract at the time dropped off a ledge more than any other before or since. It was extreme but like I said it was a loophole and I would have done the same.

The choice wasn't Leddy or Rozsy it was Oduya or Leddy....They were the more similar cap hit after Leddy's deal was up. They still won the Cup though that season...

Bickell's deal I feel the same...It was the perfect storm they didn't sign sooner and then he was great. If he was 4 inches shorter and 30 pounds lighter it would have been a different story. Then he has physical issues, which may likely mean he will never be the same.

Honestly, I don’t hate the deal. But…

Andersen, a TB goalie or even fleury might also be available. I'd rather see picks/prospects traded for a goalie and jvr held on to or traded for a dman.
- Tumbleweed

For TOR...I don't think you should go for Vasivleski, simply because I think you guys got burned by Bernier with the "backup ready to take the reigns"

Anderson....will be 35....not sure I'd be sold on him as part of an anchor for TOR

Fleury at 3yrs @ 5.75 (who i just realized has already been in the league 12yrs) or Craw at 4yrs @6mil (who has 6 full NHL seasons) - both are nearly the exact same age

Both could be fits. For some reason, I see MAF ending up in CAL...different conference then PITT

That's the wrench in all of this - would Crow waive to go? The Leafs need a couple more years to be in contention... I wonder what he would do?
- 93Joe

That's just it... Def some monetary incentive to go (though he already has a very strong market in Chi already), but really the timing may not quite lineup. I think Leafs understand they are a top-notch goalie, a true cornerstone center, some defensive depth and ideally an elite goal-scorer away from being Cup Contenders (in saying that I truly believe they have done a very nice job so far in this rebuild and between their current prospects and the haul they will bring in this draft they will be a very strong team in a few years and will be looking for a few final pieces)...

1. Stamkos, though ideally brought into the mix a year or two down the rebuild line from where they are in the rebuild, is young enough that he finishes out his massive contract he likely gets and they have enough money that paying him $10 mil per season for a year or two of non-playoff caliber teams is still chump change in the grand scheme of their monetary assets and worth locking in a rare talent now.
2. Can JVR net you a better return of a D-Man than what he brings from the Hawks? Probably... A young cost-controlled d-man developed for 2-3 years would be huge for Leafs
3. Crawford... Similar timing issue... Does adding Crawford/Elite goalie now make them any more likely to contend for the cup the next 2-3 years? Probably not... If it's 2-3 years into the build and they are an elite goalie away from cup aspirations it's a completely different story. Who knows, maybe crow has 5-6 strong years in him.. Unfortunately he may be on the wrong side of 30 at this point in their rebuild.
4. Matthews will be taken 1 overall and solves their elite center need by the time they are making cup runs. Matthews comp is often times Toews... Certainly would be a nice piece for the Leafs in a few years if that was the case.
5. Shaw is a huge weight in this deal, IMO, and for sure helps them 2-3 years from now and likely would finish out his career on a strong team.
6. Bickell and Bernier are added pieces that help seal the deal and make both teams better in their seperate ways.

I still love the trade and don't think it'd be far off by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just spit balling on whether the Leafs are quite to the stage where they make that trade. Maybe...

Another goalie that could hit the market could be one of the Ducks two? Either would bring a ton of interest.

Another goalie that could hit the market could be one of the Ducks two? Either would bring a ton of interest.
- kwolf68

Decent chance you see one of St Louis' goalies as well id say... Also Jimmy Howard

Re: exploring AA as a trade option to reduce cap problems (Al/JJ)...

Do either of you think that Stan alluded to having more Russians on the team when Panarin was signed last spring? Not sure if it is totally relevant, but after one year in the league, do you think Panarin's prospects of resigning are better if the team retains AA through his current contract?

My argument is that (beyond TT), AA could be the most expendable trade chip to finding that coveted #4D. I would think $4M - $4.5M would land you a solid #4D, either in the DFD or OFD mold. Yes, I love AA's game and all of the things he does to free up 72/88. Losing AA would probably end 88's chances of repeating as a scoring champ.

In terms of relative value and accepting deficiences on your roster, would you rather 1) retain the pivot that anchored the NHL's best regular season scoring line or 2) generate better 5v5 possession with 4 solid D-men?

Myself, I would bet that 72/88 will continue to generate pressure with a band-aid center (TT, Ras, Kruger, or cheap vet centerman a-la Richards). I do not see this team going anywhere in the postseason without a significant upgrade to the D corps.
- phantasmo

For now the Hawks are in control of Panarin...He has no choice as an RFA unless he signs an offer sheet or sits out....Otherwise he plays for the Hawks....But....
After a player is here for awhile having another countryman on the roster doesn't matter as much.

That's just it... Def some monetary incentive to go (though he already has a very strong market in Chi already), but really the timing may not quite lineup. I think Leafs understand they are a top-notch goalie, a true cornerstone center, some defensive depth and ideally an elite goal-scorer away from being Cup Contenders (in saying that I truly believe they have done a very nice job so far in this rebuild and between their current prospects and the haul they will bring in this draft they will be a very strong team in a few years and will be looking for a few final pieces)...

1. Stamkos, though ideally brought into the mix a year or two down the rebuild line from where they are in the rebuild, is young enough that he finishes out his massive contract he likely gets and they have enough money that paying him $10 mil per season for a year or two of non-playoff caliber teams is still chump change in the grand scheme of their monetary assets and worth locking in a rare talent now.
2. Can JVR net you a better return of a D-Man than what he brings from the Hawks? Probably... A young cost-controlled d-man developed for 2-3 years would be huge for Leafs
3. Crawford... Similar timing issue... Does adding Crawford/Elite goalie now make them any more likely to contend for the cup the next 2-3 years? Probably not... If it's 2-3 years into the build and they are an elite goalie away from cup aspirations it's a completely different story. Who knows, maybe crow has 5-6 strong years in him.. Unfortunately he may be on the wrong side of 30 at this point in their rebuild.
4. Matthews will be taken 1 overall and solves their elite center need by the time they are making cup runs. Matthews comp is often times Toews... Certainly would be a nice piece for the Leafs in a few years if that was the case.
5. Shaw is a huge weight in this deal, IMO, and for sure helps them 2-3 years from now and likely would finish out his career on a strong team.
6. Bickell and Bernier are added pieces that help seal the deal and make both teams better in their seperate ways.

I still love the trade and don't think it'd be far off by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just spit balling on whether the Leafs are quite to the stage where they make that trade. Maybe...
- Frenchy4488

Me thinks...you do the trade with CHI.

Right now, your D is essentially Gardiner, Reilly...with really nothing out there in UFA land. Yandle? Not with the two you already have, I don't think Yandle helps.

With my phenomenal trade offer, the following season - Robidas,Bickell, Laich and Michalek all fall off you books - 15+mil.

The 2017 UFA D class - Burns, Hedman, Shattenkirk, Kulikov, Alzner, Rob Scuderi - all are set to "hit the market" and you can build more that year on D than this one

The Rundblad comparison doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. Though, he was acquired for Adam Clendening, so any type of NHL contribution would be a bonus.
- EnzoD

Body type more like Clendenning I think.

Me thinks...you do the trade with CHI.

Right now, your D is essentially Gardiner, Reilly...with really nothing out there in UFA land. Yandle? Not with the two you already have, I don't think Yandle helps.

With my phenomenal trade offer, the following season - Robidas,Bickell, Laich and Michalek all fall off you books - 15+mil.

The 2017 UFA D class - Burns, Hedman, Shattenkirk, Kulikov, Alzner, Rob Scuderi - all are set to "hit the market" and you can build more that year on D than this one
- PatShart

I like it

Me thinks...you do the trade with CHI.

Right now, your D is essentially Gardiner, Reilly...with really nothing out there in UFA land. Yandle? Not with the two you already have, I don't think Yandle helps.

With my phenomenal trade offer, the following season - Robidas,Bickell, Laich and Michalek all fall off you books - 15+mil.

The 2017 UFA D class - Burns, Hedman, Shattenkirk, Kulikov, Alzner, Rob Scuderi - all are set to "hit the market" and you can build more that year on D than this one
- PatShart

Those are some pretty big name UFAs coming that year (minus Scuds). I wonder how many don't get locked up by their current team

Another goalie that could hit the market could be one of the Ducks two? Either would bring a ton of interest.
- kwolf68

One of their young D-men would be an appealing add.

See Brendan Gallager - just to go with your point.
- 93Joe

Gallagher plays Big
Shaw Plays Big
I don't think Kruger does. Especially @ 3 million ...

Me thinks...you do the trade with CHI.

Right now, your D is essentially Gardiner, Reilly...with really nothing out there in UFA land. Yandle? Not with the two you already have, I don't think Yandle helps.

With my phenomenal trade offer, the following season - Robidas,Bickell, Laich and Michalek all fall off you books - 15+mil.

The 2017 UFA D class - Burns, Hedman, Shattenkirk, Kulikov, Alzner, Rob Scuderi - all are set to "hit the market" and you can build more that year on D than this one
- PatShart

I pass.

Cap savings in 2017 for the leafs are there regardless of the trade.

Leafs can ride out bernier for one more year and wait for expansion. There should be a younger/cheaper goalie to found on the trade market. I think they wait for that if the cost of a goalie now is jvr.

I can’t see how you predicate a move now based on who might be available next year through free agency. All of those ufa dman (except for scuderi) might be locked up by the time free agency comes around...then like edmonton, we'll be left standing with our Richards in our hand wondering why we still suck.

Gallagher plays Big
Shaw Plays Big
I don't think Kruger does. Especially @ 3 million ...
- Colbyboy

Kruger may not hit people, but he competes. He goes to the high traffic areas, cycles, and is not afraid to take a hit to make a play. Plays great defense also.

I pass.

Cap savings in 2017 for the leafs are there regardless of the trade.

Leafs can ride out bernier for one more year and wait for expansion. There should be a younger/cheaper goalie to found on the trade market. I think they wait for that if the cost of a goalie now is jvr.

I can’t see how you predicate a move now based on who might be available next year through free agency. All of those ufa dman (except for scuderi) might be locked up by the time free agency comes around...then like edmonton, we'll be left standing with our Richards in our hand wondering why we still suck.
- Tumbleweed

Sure, cap savings will be there. But will a 2x Cup winning goalie and versatile forward 2x winner that'll be 25yrs old be available?

Haven't you guys gone the younger, cheaper, no experience goaltender enough?
Reimer, Bernier, Scrivens, Gustavsson, Toskala, Gerber, Pogge, Raycroft, Clemmenson....with JS Gigure getting a cup of coffee

If you think that next time you'll get it right with the hopeful backup vs 2 Cup winners in Crawford or MAF....good luck with that.

Sure, cap savings will be there. But will a 2x Cup winning goalie and versatile forward 2x winner that'll be 25yrs old be available?

Haven't you guys gone the younger, cheaper, no experience goaltender enough?
Reimer, Bernier, Scrivens, Gustavsson, Toskala, Gerber, Pogge, Raycroft, Clemmenson....with JS Gigure getting a cup of coffee

If you think that next time you'll get it right with the hopeful backup vs 2 Cup winners in Crawford or MAF....good luck with that.
- PatShart

I prefer Crawford/maf … but not at the cost of jvr.

Chicago is under cap pressure to make some moves. Pitts will have goalie controversy/expansion draft pressure to make a move.

Both of those guys have limited NTC's which will hamper value.

I’d expect to pay a package of quantity for crawford, not a high quality asset like jvr.

Al &JJ, both of you guys have a pulse on this stuff, What do YOU see playing out in a nut shell come 4th of July?

I prefer Crawford/maf … but not at the cost of jvr.

Chicago is under cap pressure to make some moves. Pitts will have goalie controversy/expansion draft pressure to make a move.

Both of those guys have limited NTC's which will hamper value.

I’d expect to pay a package of quantity for crawford, not a high quality asset like jvr.
- Tumbleweed

While there's no doubt JVR has been a better regular season player than Shaw, Shaw has been better in the post season.

I'd be curious of who/what you expect for a winger (not the same value as a center) that avg's 50pts per season (.62ppg)?

I figured you were, but didn't want to assume and come across like a real bumhole

I think Hossa is still worth is cap hit currently (his hit is only $725,000 more than Anisimov's), the question is whether he will still be worth it next year and the year after

ETA: OT, its kind of weird that the filter lets you say "ass" but changes it to "bum" when you combine it with "hole"
- maria_wyeth

They had the foresight to know that donkeys would come up a lot in hockey talk.

Matt Murray at $550K taking his team to the ECF may pour some cold water on the high priced goalie market.