Bernier and Pittsburgh's 1st rounder back to them for MAF.

Bernier and Pittsburgh's 1st rounder back to them for MAF.
- Kinger34

That's fair actually.

That's fair actually.
- hipcheck_goalie

I don't know. Bernier is a pending UFA in 2017 and the expansion is probably next offseason. Assuming partial NMCs are exposed, like that article indicates, we'd lose either MAF or Bernier in the 2017. So the question becomes what's more valuable to this team? A late first and less than 2 mil in cap savings for one year, or an elite goalie tandem for one year? I'd rather have the tandem.

I don't know. Bernier is a pending UFA in 2017 and the expansion is probably next offseason. Assuming partial NMCs are exposed, like that article indicates, we'd lose either MAF or Bernier in the 2017. So the question becomes what's more valuable to this team? A late first and less than 2 mil in cap savings for one year, or an elite goalie tandem for one year? I'd rather have the tandem.
- Victoro311

Great points... I make the trade only if we can't shed salary in other places... Kunitz for any thing, Scuderi retirement ( we still carry salary on his deal), or MAF for picks...

Great points... I make the trade only if we can't shed salary in other places... Kunitz for any thing, Scuderi retirement ( we still carry salary on his deal), or MAF for picks...
- hipcheck_goalie

I'm still in playoff mode so I haven't studied our cap situation for next year too hard yet, but I know off the top of my head that we're fine. Pretty much everyone's still on contract and the only thing we have to make room for is the Maatta extension, which the rising cap will almost completely cover. We only have to make one minor move or so to stay cap compliant, and I think that move will be Kunitz. Unfortunately, he just doesn't have a roster spot anymore. I hope he retires, but I know that's unlikely. He didn't have a terrible season, but he's looked done and invisible all playoffs, so its up in the air whether or not we can dump him. Worst case scenario I think if we buy him out we're under the cap.

If Scuderi retired that'd be awesome, but I'm not going to count on it. LA seems to have a lot of faith in him. If he's getting a 3+ mil paycheck and has a role within an organization he's not going to walk away.

that's the stupidest comment I have ever heard. Fleury is a top notch goalie and any team would give their 1st round pick plus, plus.
- allaboutpens

Nope.

I'm still in playoff mode so I haven't studied our cap situation for next year too hard yet, but I know off the top of my head that we're fine. Pretty much everyone's still on contract and the only thing we have to make room for is the Maatta extension, which the rising cap will almost completely cover. We only have to make one minor move or so to stay cap compliant, and I think that move will be Kunitz. Unfortunately, he just doesn't have a roster spot anymore. I hope he retires, but I know that's unlikely. He didn't have a terrible season, but he's looked done and invisible all playoffs, so its up in the air whether or not we can dump him. Worst case scenario I think if we buy him out we're under the cap.

If Scuderi retired that'd be awesome, but I'm not going to count on it. LA seems to have a lot of faith in him. If he's getting a 3+ mil paycheck and has a role within an organization he's not going to walk away.
- Victoro311

Trying to fit Shultz in will be tricky, & replacing Lovejob & Culldog. Hopefully Culldog has a Stanley hangover & signs again for the same $, maybe Lovejob likes the team & knowing what he's in for. Shultz is the big question??

Trying to fit Shultz in will be tricky, & replacing Lovejob & Culldog. Hopefully Culldog has a Stanley hangover & signs again for the same $, maybe Lovejob likes the team & knowing what he's in for. Shultz is the big question??
- Aussiepenguin

This is true. Cullen I think has a very capable in house replacement in Sundqvist. Sundqvist won't be as productive as Cullen, but to be fair Cullen has been outstanding. If Cullen wants to resign at the same 800k, though, I'd welcome him back in a heart beat. Lovejoy is easily replaceable. Not worried there.

If we want to retain Schultz then yes, we will need to do some finagling, but trading Fleury isn't an absolute must to get it done. It's just one way to do so. So my point still remains: we don't have to trade the Flower. Because of that we're not going to accept some lowball offer. A team isn't doing us a favor by taking him.

Yes true. But Matt Murray will not be available for the number 6 pick. Just look at the #6 picks since 2000 - scott hartnell,mikko koivu,scottie upshall, milan michaelek,al montoya,carey price,derrick brassard, sam gagner, nikita filatov,OEL, Brett Connolly, Mika Zibanejad, Hampus Lindholm, Sean Monahan, Jake virtanen, pavel zacha

Tell me how many guys on that list you would trade for what Matt Murray is showing right now. OEL and Carey Price. And Murray has the potential to match the career of those guys. 6th pick is too late in the draft to get a sure thing can't miss prospect. Something like a 1/8 chance of getting a franchise player. And of the rest of a little over half are filling important roles but not franchise roles.
- sditulli

Murray has Price potential now? He is good, but come on... Price was a starter for 3 seasons already when he was Murray's age. Nobody has the potential to be Price, the guy is on another planet.

I think it's hard to discount any of the next tier. MAF has won a Cup and has consistently put up above-average goalie numbers for 10 years, Crawford and Quick have 2 Cups each, Bishop is an absolute wall, and Luongo is among the best regular season goalies of his generation with 15 years as a starter putting up above-average to elite numbers.
- MaximumBone

Damn, there are a lot of really good goalies in the league right now. I hadn't really thought about it recently.

I don't believe in the "doing us a favor (proper spelling)" thing. There would be other organizations interested. Why trade a pretty good goalie for a pile of crap like you are suggesting. Doesn't make it worthwhile.

Believe it or not, there are other organizations in this league aside from Toronto. The standings prove that.
- Oneonta Penguin

Yes, but what ones have the cap room and want Fleury? Which of those would Fleury want to go to? Based on this forum, a lot of people are going to be really disappointed with the return for Fleury. That's not saying he's not a worthy goalie, I'm a fan of his, but the market just isn't there for him.

Murray has Price potential now? He is good, but come on... Price was a starter for 3 seasons already when he was Murray's age. Nobody has the potential to be Price, the guy is on another planet.
- SolidGoldBricks

Actually Murray is only one year older than Price was when he was a starter at 20 years old his rookie season. The OP never claimed he is or will be as good as Price but he certainly has the potential to do so. All organizations are different and in this one Murray is/was behind a very good goaltender in MAF. If we had someone of lesser caliber, Murray would have been called up and maybe even won the crease as soon as last year with the numbers he was putting up. He's been putting over .930 save percentages consistently for two years now, even if it was in the AHL last year and in a limited span this year. Its definitely not outlandish to think he could be one of the elites one day.

Actually Murray is only one year older than Price was when he was a starter at 20 years old his rookie season. The OP never claimed he is or will be as good as Price but he certainly has the potential to do so. All organizations are different and in this one Murray is/was behind a very good goaltender in MAF. If we had someone of lesser caliber, Murray would have been called up and maybe even won the crease as soon as last year with the numbers he was putting up. He's been putting over .930 save percentages consistently for two years now, even if it was in the AHL last year and in a limited span this year. Its definitely not outlandish to think he could be one of the elites one day.
- Victoro311

Price was 19 at the end of his rookie season, and played 41 games that year. So I guess he wasn't the starter, but that's damn close. Two years, not three, that's my blunder. My post wasn't to hate on Murray... I think Murray might be one of the elites sooner than later. He definitely will be if he keeps playing like he is right now.

My post was mostly to say that Price is ridiculous. He's the guy I want to hate so bad, but can't help loving.

This is true. Cullen I think has a very capable in house replacement in Sundqvist. Sundqvist won't be as productive as Cullen, but to be fair Cullen has been outstanding. If Cullen wants to resign at the same 800k, though, I'd welcome him back in a heart beat. Lovejoy is easily replaceable. Not worried there.

If we want to retain Schultz then yes, we will need to do some finagling, but trading Fleury isn't an absolute must to get it done. It's just one way to do so. So my point still remains: we don't have to trade the Flower. Because of that we're not going to accept some lowball offer. A team isn't doing us a favor by taking him.
- Victoro311

As you put your hard earned on my prediction , I think JR would have already taken calls on both Muzza & Flower. I still believe we start with both for 'justin', & then by deadline Flower is gone - I'm thinking they will see how Jarry comes along, & make sure Muzza doesn't regress with the grind. Flower to a team with a possible back up coming back (depending on how Jarry is), with either a high pick & solid player + the back-up (that has salary), or throw a high prospect lower pick & another player, something along those lines. In saying that I think there's a glut of back up tenders running around next year so Jarry may not be even looked at.

As you put your hard earned on my prediction , I think JR would have already taken calls on both Muzza & Flower. I still believe we start with both for 'justin', & then by deadline Flower is gone - I'm thinking they will see how Jarry comes along, & make sure Muzza doesn't regress with the grind. Flower to a team with a possible back up coming back (depending on how Jarry is), with either a high pick & solid player + the back-up (that has salary), or throw a high prospect lower pick & another player, something along those lines. In saying that I think there's a glut of back up tenders running around next year so Jarry may not be even looked at.
- Aussiepenguin

My original thought process was that Flower won't be traded until Murray thrives in at least a 60-40 split for an entire season, which couldn't have happened until at the very earliest next season. I didn't take into account that MAF would be sidelined for the first round of the playoffs and Murray would make himself unpullable. I also didn't really take the possibility of expansion very seriously which does change things whether I like it or not. I still think that in a perfect world without expansion we wouldn't look to deal Flower until next offseason, but now who knows.

Yes, but what ones have the cap room and want Fleury? Which of those would Fleury want to go to? Based on this forum, a lot of people are going to be really disappointed with the return for Fleury. That's not saying he's not a worthy goalie, I'm a fan of his, but the market just isn't there for him.
- SolidGoldBricks

So which teams have a better goalie? I would throw the Oil, Sabres, Flames, Canucks, Stars, Sharks, & Leafs out there as teams that don't at the moment to name a few without thinking about it too much.

So of those how many can afford him & have something they would trade? Maybe I am expecting too much for him in my previous comment - I'm optimistic , but there would definitely be a market for a very good goalie (elite at times).

My original thought process was that Flower won't be traded until Murray thrives in at least a 60-40 split for an entire season, which couldn't have happened until at the very earliest next season. I didn't take into account that MAF would be sidelined for the first round of the playoffs and Murray would make himself unpullable. I also didn't really take the possibility of expansion very seriously which does change things whether I like it or not. I still think that in a perfect world without expansion we wouldn't look to deal Flower until next offseason, but now who knows.
- Victoro311

The longer Flower goes having to split any time with Muzza, I think he is reducing his value. I have zero doubt that the future Pens goalie is Murray, so we need to maximise the return Flower gets, without putting the expansion pressure into the equation, which will be another factor in decreasing Flowers value. Next season we need to trade to maximise return.

So which teams have a better goalie? I would throw the Oil, Sabres, Flames, Canucks, Stars, Sharks, & Leafs out there as teams that don't at the moment to name a few without thinking about it too much.

So of those how many can afford him & have something they would trade? Maybe I am expecting too much for him in my previous comment - I'm optimistic , but there would definitely be a market for a very good goalie (elite at times).
- Aussiepenguin

You gotta take into account diminishing returns. The question isn't what teams out there have a worse goalie than MAF. The question out there is how many teams out there would stand to gain from upgrading their goalie position to MAF while taking on his 5.75 mil contract. The Flames, Canucks and Leafs for sure. Buffalo probably, but they gave up a lot for Lehner. The Oilers maybe, but adding MAF's hit to a 4.15 mil over three years investment in Cam Talbot is a lot tied up in goalies. The Stars have way too much tied up in goalies to make that move and Lehtonen should be impossible to move at this point. The Sharks are better off going with the cheaper Marvin Jones.

The longer Flower goes having to split any time with Muzza, I think he is reducing his value. I have zero doubt that the future Pens goalie is Murray, so we need to maximise the return Flower gets, without putting the expansion pressure into the equation, which will be another factor in decreasing Flowers value. Next season we need to trade to maximise return.
- Aussiepenguin

It depends what the return is. If the return as a lot of people are suggesting is a second round pick, a cap dump, and a meh prospect, it's worth more to the organization to have an elite goalie tandem than that return and then just get 6 mil in free cap space when he's exposed in the expansion draft. If the return is a mid to high 1st rounder, a B+/A- prospect, a good roster player at a position of need, or some combination of good assets, then I'll start to listen.

You gotta take into account diminishing returns. The question isn't what teams out there have a worse goalie than MAF. The question out there is how many teams out there would stand to gain from upgrading their goalie position to MAF while taking on his 5.75 mil contract. The Flames, Canucks and Leafs for sure. Buffalo probably, but they gave up a lot for Lehner. The Oilers maybe, but adding MAF's hit to a 4.15 mil over three years investment in Cam Talbot is a lot tied up in goalies. The Stars have way too much tied up in goalies to make that move and Lehtonen should be impossible to move at this point. The Sharks are better off going with the cheaper Marvin Jones.
- Victoro311

I think if an organisation wants to win, they try & get what they need. Oilers will have to start thinking about competing 1 of these days, & I just can't see Talbot being their guy. Stars are in win now mode, if they get knocked out this round I think their first port of call is looking at their goalies. Sharks similar situation although Jones looks better than the others I've mentioned. Flames are waiting to be slapped in the face to wake up from their nightmare that was this season. Plus they have tradable pieces. As I said before I really think there is a market for Flower.

So which teams have a better goalie? I would throw the Oil, Sabres, Flames, Canucks, Stars, Sharks, & Leafs out there as teams that don't at the moment to name a few without thinking about it too much.

So of those how many can afford him & have something they would trade? Maybe I am expecting too much for him in my previous comment - I'm optimistic , but there would definitely be a market for a very good goalie (elite at times).
- Aussiepenguin

It's not about who has a better goalie, necessarily. I don't think the Leafs, Canucks or Oil (unless they make some other, big moves this offseason) have any delusions about being competitive next season, so overpaying for Fleury isn't in their best interests. He'd be very useful for all three down the road, but if it's not an immediate need, then they are going to pay less.

I think the Sharks are happy with Jones, and expect him to be the starter for some time. He looked great last night for the most part.

The Sabres, I'm not entirely sure about, honestly. I know they got sub-par goaltending this season, but have they given up on Lehner being the future for them? I just don't know enough about their situation.

Dallas is in win now mode, and Calgary a lot further into their rebuild than the others I mentioned above. I think these would both be solid places for Fleury.

I think if an organisation wants to win, they try & get what they need. Oilers will have to start thinking about competing 1 of these days, & I just can't see Talbot being their guy. Stars are in win now mode, if they get knocked out this round I think their first port of call is looking at their goalies. Sharks similar situation although Jones looks better than the others I've mentioned. Flames are waiting to be slapped in the face to wake up from their nightmare that was this season. Plus they have tradable pieces. As I said before I really think there is a market for Flower.
- Aussiepenguin

The Sharks just got done looking at their goalie situation this offseason. They're not going to give up on a young goalie they really like and showed continued improvement over the course of the year and was in the crease when the Sharks got past LA for the first time in what feels like franchise history. They're not in the market for a 'tender.

I'm sure the Stars would love to upgrade the goalie position, and Niemi might even be moveable if they want to make a change, but Lehtonen is a 6 mil albatross. Even if some team agreed to take Niemi, its not feasible to pay two goalies 6 mil. They are not in the market unless something gives with Lehtonen.

The Oilers are a possibility, but MAF would never waive his NTC to go there until they shed their dumpster fire reputation. It's really only Calgary, Toronto, and Buffalo, and Toronto might be too young and too far from the playoffs for MAF to make sense.

It's not about who has a better goalie, necessarily. I don't think the Leafs, Canucks or Oil (unless they make some other, big moves this offseason) have any delusions about being competitive next season, so overpaying for Fleury isn't in their best interests. He'd be very useful for all three down the road, but if it's not an immediate need, then they are going to pay less.

I think the Sharks are happy with Jones, and expect him to be the starter for some time. He looked great last night for the most part.

The Sabres, I'm not entirely sure about, honestly. I know they got sub-par goaltending this season, but have they given up on Lehner being the future for them? I just don't know enough about their situation.

Dallas is in win now mode, and Calgary a lot further into their rebuild than the others I mentioned above. I think these would both be solid places for Fleury.
- SolidGoldBricks

The (frank)ed up thing is that I do think Vancouver has delusions that they'll be contenders next year. Every move that Jim Benning has made over the past year suggests that he is unwilling to initiate a rebuild.

The (frank)ed up thing is that I do think Vancouver has delusions that they'll be contenders next year. Every move that Jim Benning has made over the past year suggests that he is unwilling to initiate a rebuild.
- Victoro311

Pretty sure Canucks have a gun prospect coming through. Flower could be a great role model that can be traded by the time the prospect is ready to take over.

The (frank)ed up thing is that I do think Vancouver has delusions that they'll be contenders next year. Every move that Jim Benning has made over the past year suggests that he is unwilling to initiate a rebuild.
- Victoro311

I actually had this same thought right after I posted. "Wait a second, the Canucks actually might think they're poised for a run."

Although, they're in the business of trading away good goalies, not trading a lot for good goalies.