We are all blaming Q for botching the Daley thing...anyone think that maybe Daley had something to do with it too? Perhaps he didn't like the overall style that Q likes to play. Maybe he didn't fit in with the guys? Maybe he had an attitude? I don't know, but it just seems that ALL the blame for Daley is being put on Q. Perhaps Q did have some give and take and Daley just took. Or Q thought that's what he was doing?

I don't know, speculation is fun until you get 100s of pages of it.

University of southern Palatine would be Harper College right?
- ATXHawksfan

Yep

because sometimes the game of NHL playoffs just sucks..and it doesn't care what your paycheck is....ask stamkos last year vs the hawks = a big goose egg, ask getzlaf and perry combined for 2 goals vs the preds both by getzlaf, ask ovie 1 goal in 4 games vs pens....on and on it goes...

kane had some great chances at least 5 i can recall...and elliot got em....

i just don't by this false narrative that your paycheck means a certain level of goals or points every series or per game...sometimes they dont go in and the other guys were better

look at toews and kanes production over the long haul in the playoffs and consider all the big goals they have had a roll in via assists or finish...
- bogiedoc

IMO part of the reason the Hawks were so good in games 5-7 for all those years is the fact that in games 1-4, the opposing team would do everything in their power to shut down the Toews and Kanes and Hossas and Sharps and whoever their snipers were that year. But, by game 5, Q and the team had done two things:

1) Secondary scoring would open up the game for the primary scorers.
2) Game planning was put in place to get around the traps and whatever the opposing team was doing to stop the top scorers.

This year, there weren't a ton of secondary scorers/no one that would make you scared like TT was last year. Also, Q had an off series of game planning. But, STILL the skill of this team and whatever coaching they got led them to G7 and one double post away from tying the game. THAT'S how good this team is and can be again. They just have to believe it for more than games 5-7.

University of southern Palatine would be Harper College right?
- ATXHawksfan

Are they a hockey powerhouse? Who knew!

IDK if it was Trevor Daley, Trevor Daley's hip, Coach Q, Daley's d-partner, or WHAT THE FRANK was going on the first 20 games of the season, because Trevor Daley looked pretty darn awful. His defensive miscues were frequent, his gap control was nonexistent, and he looked more like a rookie than a 10 NHL veteran. I was very critical of Daley, and I think rightfully so given his performance in the Hawks Indianhead sweater.

We can only guess what happened on/off the ice that resulted in such poor play from Daley. It smells to me like typical Q favorites and goats. I'm assuming Daley came to camp out of shape due to his surgery, never got his skating legs, was on a short leash from Q, and the short leash made him even handle the puck like a hot potato.

I'm watching the playoffs and Daley has been a stud. Playing top pair minutes, driving possession, jumping into the rush to create offense, and making clean breakout/stretch passes. WHAT THE HECK?!?! Missed opportunity this year, especially when you look at the jump Hossa had in games 5-7. I'm at a loss for words about the personnel decisions from Q this year.

Hindsight is 20/20, guys.

Not sure why everyone is tearing Q apart on here. Suddenly Daley is a HoF Defensemen in a lot of guys eyes on here because he rushed up ice and scored? Remember, he wanted the trade out of here. He wasn't happy here. So what if it was Q he didn't like. Doesn't mean Q is a bad coach or to blame. Plenty of guys don't like their coaches but still play/produce.

What could the organization do in that situation? Keep a guy who made it clear he didn't want to be here?

This fan base has become spoiled ,sorry had to say it again .It is hard to continue to read such rubbish .Sure they got beat out in the 1st RD for the 1st time since 2012 .They lost by inches to a team that very well could win the cup . Sometimes when you play hockey it dose not go your way ,sometimes the other team get the bounces ,or your team has INJURIES . Maybe your coach is not infallible and makes the wrong decision ,or there are injuries or personnel conflicts involved . Maybe just Maybe with a hard cap it going to be hard to repeat EVER !! This is still a very good team with any luck would still be playing .And will be again next year . I am taking a break from here for awhile .Enjoy some playoff hockey and my summer ,like I hope the players are .Let you folks solve all the many problems the HAWKS have . I will be just a click away though .. Adios Amigos
- oldduffman

Want to be with you and walk away for a while (i.e. until there's actual news to talk about) but I am just too Hawks obsessed to do it! I am with you fully tho in being frustrated by the rehash of the same things and the certainty being voice by many on this board right now of the end of the Hawks as an elite team. The unqualified "they won't even make the playoffs next year" statements make me want to leave the board for a while. Will they be a bubble team next year? Who knows? No one. That's who. You can't judge next year's team until we know what we have to work with. And we won't know that until September. I am keeping an open mind about things until there are actual facts upon which to base an opinion. I wish more of us would do the same.

Hindsight is 20/20, guys.

Not sure why everyone is tearing Q apart on here. Suddenly Daley is a HoF Defensemen in a lot of guys eyes on here because he rushed up ice and scored? Remember, he wanted the trade out of here. He wasn't happy here. So what if it was Q he didn't like. Doesn't mean Q is a bad coach or to blame. Plenty of guys don't like their coaches but still play/produce.

What could the organization do in that situation? Keep a guy who made it clear he didn't want to be here?
- Hank3Henshaw

The way he performed and then public request of a trade, it was the right call to move him. I am simply questioning WHY this guy was a dog for the Hawks and magically is a stud for the Penguins and has been paramount in their revitalization with Sullivan. We are talking about the team that is 1 game from handling the President's Trophy Capitals in 5 games, and Daley is their #2D behind Letang. He played half the game last night and they beat a desperate Capitals team. Damn right hindsight is 20/20 and they still had to move him once the situation deteriorated to a public trade request. I am just trying to understand HOW/WHY it went down like that. Daley on the left side of the 3rd pair would have been a nice balancing of the defense....if he played even half as well as he is in Pitt....

My only problem with Daley and Q. Is instead of working with guy and trying to help them fit in at times he goes the other way. put Daley with Hammer for 5-10 games in a row and see if you can't get his head right? Instead he puts him with a different guy every game. I'm not a pro hockey player but knowing what your linemate might do is probably a good thing. Same with Dano. Why not put him on the 3rd line RW and let him get his confidence back. instead of forcing him to 1LW or nothing. Heck move Hossa to LW he has played so long it would be easier then a 20 year old.

My only problem wth the daley trade is SCUDS 1.1 cap hit for next year. Dallas gave up a 2nd at the trade deadline for Russell. Daley has the same track record.

In regard to Q its coach's jobs to put player in a spot to succeed and get the most out of players. I don't think any of us would accuse Q of doing that in this case.

The way he performed and then public request of a trade, it was the right call to move him. I am simply questioning WHY this guy was a dog for the Hawks and magically is a stud for the Penguins and has been paramount in their revitalization with Sullivan. We are talking about the team that is 1 game from handling the President's Trophy Capitals in 5 games, and Daley is their #2D behind Letang. He played half the game last night and they beat a desperate Capitals team. Damn right hindsight is 20/20 and they still had to move him once the situation deteriorated to a public trade request. I am just trying to understand HOW/WHY it went down like that. Daley on the left side of the 3rd pair would have been a nice balancing of the defense....if he played even half as well as he is in Pitt....
- EnzoD

I'm not comparing output, but look at Panik. Frequent scratch with the Maple Leafs. He comes here and shows a ton more potential and if he can improve his finishing, hopefully a Top 6 LW which the Hawks so badly need. Sometimes the coach or style don't fit the player. Sometimes the player doesn't fit the room. It just didn't work out.

The way he performed and then public request of a trade, it was the right call to move him. I am simply questioning WHY this guy was a dog for the Hawks and magically is a stud for the Penguins and has been paramount in their revitalization with Sullivan. We are talking about the team that is 1 game from handling the President's Trophy Capitals in 5 games, and Daley is their #2D behind Letang. He played half the game last night and they beat a desperate Capitals team. Damn right hindsight is 20/20 and they still had to move him once the situation deteriorated to a public trade request. I am just trying to understand HOW/WHY it went down like that. Daley on the left side of the 3rd pair would have been a nice balancing of the defense....if he played even half as well as he is in Pitt....
- EnzoD

I hear you, man. I think it just comes down to his attitude and the system.

When he was in Chicago, I think he pretty much knew right away this wasn't a fit for him. I'm sure that affected his attitude, which trickled down to his play. Plus, the Hawks system is far more defensive-minded (or tries to be). Daley was used to having free reign in Dallas to basically be a Forward on Defense. When he came to the Hawks, they didn't want him playing like that. Getting traded to the Pens allows him to play the same game he did with Dallas. I just think he thrives better in a system that encourages their Defensemen to be offensively minded/active.

That's what I think happened.

We are all blaming Q for botching the Daley thing...anyone think that maybe Daley had something to do with it too? Perhaps he didn't like the overall style that Q likes to play. Maybe he didn't fit in with the guys? Maybe he had an attitude? I don't know, but it just seems that ALL the blame for Daley is being put on Q. Perhaps Q did have some give and take and Daley just took. Or Q thought that's what he was doing?

I don't know, speculation is fun until you get 100s of pages of it.
- CanOCorn

I'm sure Daley plays a part in that blame, but is it "blame" per say? Perhaps Daley ultimately just didn't fit in Q's scheme? I think that's part of the problem.

Further, I would have liked to see Q actually pair up Daley with one of Seabrook/Hjalmarsson/Keith just to see if that was the issue. That wasn't tried, or if it was, it wasn't for a long enough span of games to see what Daley could do outside of being paired up with the rotation of the rest of the defensive corps.

As for Gustafsson, I just don't get why the organization thought it was a good idea to hide him away in the press box as long as they did when he could have been playing valuable minutes in Rockford. I just don't get it.

I hear you, man. I think it just comes down to his attitude and the system.

When he was in Chicago, I think he pretty much knew right away this wasn't a fit for him. I'm sure that affected his attitude, which trickled down to his play. Plus, the Hawks system is far more defensive-minded (or tries to be). Daley was used to having free reign in Dallas to basically be a Forward on Defense. When he came to the Hawks, they didn't want him playing like that. Getting traded to the Pens allows him to play the same game he did with Dallas. I just think he thrives better in a system that encourages their Defensemen to be offensively minded/active.

That's what I think happened.
- Hank3Henshaw

Can we just give Mike Sullivan the Jack Adams' award already? The guy is looking like a miracle worker with what he's done. Look at their defense behind Letang...Daley, Maata, Dumelin, Pouliot. I really did not expect the Capitals to fold until the Cup Finals, but this Penguins team is dialed in and their team speed is a problem for the Caps.

So first, let me explain what I meant by my post.

Burying cap hits: This board has been up in arms since Oduya signed with Dallas about David Rundblad's contract, as though Rundblad's deal somehow foreclosed signing Oduya. If only the Hawks had parted ways with Rundblad, Oduya would have returned and we'd be winning the cup. What was Rundblad's cap hit, buried in the AHL and in Europe? A whopping $100k. That's not the reason we didn't sign Oduya. The fallout from the Sharp trade is.

Flipping players for picks: This is another theme that keeps popping up, probably because of the rumor JJ posted around the draft. People seem to think that the Blackhawks were going to be able to trade Sharp for draft picks without taking any salary back. Question: who exactly was going to do that? A low-salary rebuilding team wouldn't. A high-salary contender wouldn't have the cap space to take on $5.9m extra. The only remotely plausible scenario, then, would have been trading Sharp to a contending team that had $6m sitting around that had no better use than to pay for an aging middle-six winger. So which team was that?

If Stan Bowman had the chance to move Sharp for two second-round draft picks -- straight up, no strings attached -- and blew it, he's either a fool or his hands were tied by a fool.

Value in a hard-cap league and opportunity cost: A lot of folks here debate the relative merits of X player vs. Y player, or the absolute merits of Z player. That's absolutely fine for hockey discussion. But when you start talking roster construction, absolute value goes out the window because you have a hard cap. I don't mean just that we have to think about cap hits. I mean that every decision you make has to be based on the number of wins the player is worth relative to the size of that cap hit. Bryan Bickell at $1m is a wash. Bryan Bickell at $4m is a disaster. Artemi Panarin at $3.25m or whatever his hit is when you include his bonuses is a bargain. Artemi Panarin at $7m is close to a wash.

While I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there's a GM or two out there who doesn't get this, most of them surely do. Which is why, going back to Sharp, you'd have to be an idiot* to trade away two second-round draft picks, which represent two decent shots at securing an NHL-caliber player at a very low cost for a few years, for a player costing $6m against your cap who is probably worth more like $3m or $4m.

Now, take opportunity cost into account. If that team acquires Sharp, then it's missing an opportunity to acquire a different player (or different players) who could contribute more on the ice.* Here's the exception to what I just said. If there's a team with the space to take on Sharp, and if Sharp's going to put your team over an important threshhold -- say, playoff team to cup contender -- then it would make sense for you to do it. The Phil Kessel trade is a perfect example of this.

What all of this adds up to is that Patrick Sharp's trade value was not anything near what we might think if we only consider his merits as a hockey player.

Okay. You discussed some specific transactions that I have some thoughts on.



I agree that Leddy was probably worth more than what the Hawks received in return. It would have been a much better idea to move him before July 1, when rosters are not settled and teams have more flexibility. Compare what they got for Leddy to what they got for Saad, and the Saad transaction was RFA rights only. Leddy still had a year left at a relatively low hit.



Chicago got absolutely fleeced there. I have no idea what anybody was thinking. This trade would have been horrible even if it had cost the Hawks only one second-round pick.



If you can do it, that's great, but you run into the problem, again, of trading a player with a $4m or so hit who isn't quite worth that. Especially after July 1, you're virtually guaranteed to have to take salary back, which is...



...exactly why this trade happened the way it did.



When the Hawks traded for Ehrhoff, I breathed a sigh of relief because that was Scuderi's cap hit off the books. Then they retained salary. Um, okay. Who exactly in the organization wanted Ehrhoff, anyway? Completely bizarre.



This is simply not true. They had two very serious and very pressing cap issues: they needed to open space for deadline acquisitions, and they needed to open space to absorb Panarin's bonus overages. They also needed to open space for the contract extensions kicking in the following summer, but they could have moved Daley after the season for that.



As I explained above, Rundblad on the Blackhawks might be a $1.05m cap hit, but off the Blackhawks, he's only a $100k hit. Less, potentially, if the minimum salary increases in the offseason.If Rundblad is good enough to be on the NHL roster, a $1m hit is fine for a bottom-pair defenseman. If he's not, then you can bury him without creating an issue for yourself.



The first two may very well be true.

The Saad-Anisimov trade was neither slow nor overconfident. The Leddy trade was slow. The Sharp trade may have been overconfident.

As for long-term vision... I think he's acting in accordance with one, just not a very good one.

He's identified his "core" and locked them up. His intent is to build the rest of the roster around them. That's a perfectly fine strategy, assuming you have a good enough value in your core.

Unfortunately, the Hawks don't. Keith and Hjalmarsson are on excellent contracts. Everybody else is a wash or slightly worse. Seabrook in particular is going to be a major problem, I think. It is very unfortunate that they don't really have an in-house replacement for him, because I think it would have been much better in the long term for them to have let him walk after this past season. I know some people think that their in-house replacement is in Dallas now. I don't have an opinion on that because I don't know anything about prospect projection.



We can speculate about the latter, but trading away an apparently good, young player on an ELC for two players on expiring contracts who aren't even given the opportunity to contribute, really, is a major mistake. This trade is going to cost the Blackhawks going forward.



No doubt about that. Just an awful trade under the circumstances.



This is true only if you think that those players were going to be able to stay in Chicago. They weren't.

The Sharp trade -- part of the price of which was Stephen Johns, which should not be forgotten -- has ultimately opened roughly $4m in cap space. I think that just about pays for the extensions that are kicking in this summer.

The Leddy trade returned Ville Pokka.

We may think those are BAD values, but it's not nothing.

This is the type of reasoning I was talking about when I mentioned production versus cap hit. It's not enough to say that a player is high caliber. How much are they getting paid? How long is their contract? How much do they contribute relative to their cap hit? Those are the kinds of questions that need to be answered before you can evaluate a player's trade value.



When was the last time a player with a cap hit measurably above what he brought to the table as a player was traded for draft picks without taking salary back? For that matter, when was the last time ANY player with a significant cap hit was dealt with no salary coming back?

Nobody in the NHL is able to dump their cap problems on other teams AND come out with shiny high-round draft picks. Maybe that was true in the past -- I haven't paid close enough attention to know -- but it's certainly not happening right now. This isn't NHL 16.



I agree with you that these trades have chipped away at the Blackhawks' depth. But they were the product of mistakes that had already been made. Bickell's disaster of a contract comes to mind. Roszival's unnecessary prior deal. A pair of $10.5m contracts do, too, though I think the jury's still out on whether they were worth it.

This cap system punishes you harshly for overvaluing players if you're fielding a roster full of quality veterans, as the Hawks are. Don't mistake the consequences of the mistake -- the cap forcing your hand in a trade -- for the mistake itself, which may be as little as $2m too much committed to a couple players.



Out of curiosity, why does Bowman get the blame for trades you think were bad but not the credit for signing quality players that his scouting department unearthed?

Also, I'm not sure exactly who you think the Hawks should have picked up in free agency, hell, I'm not sure why you think the Hawks had ROOM to sign free agents, but free agent contracts are generally poor values.



No. You were able to move the RIGHTS to a 23-year-old top-six power winger -- who signed for $6m/6y, which was pretty much what he was worth -- in exchange for a very good prospect who had seen success in limited NHL player time and a middle-six center who you were able to lock up with a contract paying him probably about what he's worth and possibly somewhat less than you would have paid on the open market. Was that trade a steal? Heck no. Could a case be made that the Hawks came out of it worse? I don't think so, because they sure weren't going to be able to afford Saad. I guess it could be argued that the Jackets ultimately got more out of it than the Hawks did, but who cares?



One hole filled opens up another one. The cap sucks. I hate it.



Not as long as mine!

Also, pre-emptive apologies if I'm coming off as a Richard. I'm just... passionate.
- darklighter

Hahaha! Yours is a well thought out and you make very valid points that I agree with. Mine was a rambling stream of conscious rant because I was bored at work. My concern is the end game/net results from trades. A lot of talent leaving the Hawks with nothing to show in return at the end of the day. I want to see this run we are on last as long as possible. If cap space is the end goal then the front office needs to have a better big picture view and move guys preemptively. Similar to the way the Patriots move players. I don't want to end up like the Penguins. My gut tells me that is where we are headed unless we make some bold moves or hit the jack pot again with unsigned Free Agents from college or Europe.

This fan base has become spoiled ,sorry had to say it again .It is hard to continue to read such rubbish .Sure they got beat out in the 1st RD for the 1st time since 2012 .They lost by inches to a team that very well could win the cup . Sometimes when you play hockey it dose not go your way ,sometimes the other team get the bounces ,or your team has INJURIES . Maybe your coach is not infallible and makes the wrong decision ,or there are injuries or personnel conflicts involved . Maybe just Maybe with a hard cap it going to be hard to repeat EVER !! This is still a very good team with any luck would still be playing .And will be again next year . I am taking a break from here for awhile .Enjoy some playoff hockey and my summer ,like I hope the players are .Let you folks solve all the many problems the HAWKS have . I will be just a click away though .. Adios Amigos
- oldduffman

One man's trash is another man's treasure...

That being said, I personally enjoy seeing the discussion of the team from many different perspectives, especially the ones that interject something outside of the mainstream line of thinking.

Enjoy your summer.

Hahaha! Yours is a well thought out and you make very valid points that I agree with. Mine was a rambling stream of conscious rant because I was bored at work. My concern is the end game/net results from trades. A lot of talent leaving the Hawks with nothing to show in return at the end of the day. I want to see this run we are on last as long as possible. If cap space is the end goal then the front office needs to have a better big picture view and move guys preemptively. Similar to the way the Patriots move players. I don't want to end up like the Penguins. My gut tells me that is where we are headed unless we make some bold moves or hit the jack pot again with unsigned Free Agents from college or Europe.
- bhawks2241

Exactly Bhawks! That is why I am strong advocate for trading 50 this summer. Otherwise, StanBo is backed into a corner again and will either give away Crow for NOTHING, or have to trade Panarin/let him walk for nothing. Get ahead of the Cap or else it will continue to eat away at this championship roster....

Can we just give Mike Sullivan the Jack Adams' award already? The guy is looking like a miracle worker with what he's done. Look at their defense behind Letang...Daley, Maata, Dumelin, Pouliot. I really did not expect the Capitals to fold until the Cup Finals, but this Penguins team is dialed in and their team speed is a problem for the Caps.
- EnzoD

He's done a great job. I also think Gallant has done a fantastic job in Florida.

To your point about the Pens defense and team as a whole...you don't always need a roster of super stars to win. A lot of times it just takes a locker room of guys who all buy in. Everyone is on the same page and willing to do whatever it takes. Guys selling out to block shots, willing to throw the body, etc.

I said it yesterday, but I sometimes think Hawk fans believe that if a player is not on the same level as a Kane, Toews, Panarin, Keith, etc. that they can't be on the Hawks roster. We know that's not true. You need guys of different skill sets to bring balance and different looks. But most importantly, you need guys in the right mindset.

Daley played better this year than in almost any of his previous 10 seasons.
- etchtech

?

Can we just give Mike Sullivan the Jack Adams' award already? The guy is looking like a miracle worker with what he's done. Look at their defense behind Letang...Daley, Maata, Dumelin, Pouliot. I really did not expect the Capitals to fold until the Cup Finals, but this Penguins team is dialed in and their team speed is a problem for the Caps.
- EnzoD

Maata was out also, which makes it even worse.

In reality, the Pens have been outplayed in 3 of the 4 games. In game 3, the Caps pounded the Pens with 50 SOG to 23, and still lost, this with a 21 year old goalie making $620K.

Thats the great thing about hockey, you just never know. Conventional wisdom would have told you that after putting up 50 shots the game before and the Pens playing without Letang and Maata the Caps would be the prohibitive favorite to win game 4 going away, but it just wasn't the case.

Gustav Forsling is probably not ready for prime time but it is clear he can shoot that biscuit as well as most.
I will temper my excitement as I did with Panarin, but of every move throughout Bowman history, this one for Adam Clendening (and his father), excited me the most.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LpH-V7CJ08


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3o56YbCbRs


It surprises me thatb they were able to yet again , acquire a quick up ice good passing skill guy with a cannon...that fits their idea of press attack defenders over slug concussion seeking ones.

Maata was out also, which makes it even worse.

In reality, the Pens have been outplayed in 3 of the 4 games. In game 3, the Caps pounded the Pens with 50 SOG to 23, and still lost, this with a 21 year old goalie making $620K.

Thats the great thing about hockey, you just never know. Conventional wisdom would have told you that after putting up 50 shots the game before and the Pens playing without Letang and Maata the Caps would be the prohibitive favorite to win game 4 going away, but it just wasn't the case.
- TheTrob

I expected a convincing win from the Capitals last night, but Backstrom and Kuznetsov are being dominated by Crosby+Malkin at the center ice position. Capitals appear to be choking, yet again. With Letang back and Murray playing on his head, I now expect the Caps to fold like a chair in game 5

Maatta was out also, which makes it even worse.

- TheTrob

What is truly worse is that you could make a case that Orprik, the horsefeather Cap defender, purposefully targets guys with concussion history.

I am gonna go back to a 1933 movie quote to describe the Capitals in the same way you could make a case to describe Blackhawks playoff forwards:

"It wasn't the airplanes, it was beauty that killed the beast!"

What is truly worse is that you could make a case that Orprik, the horsefeather Cap defender, purposefully targets guys with concussion history.
- wiz1901

Orpik is a POS and has always been so.

University of southern Palatine would be Harper College right?
- ATXHawksfan

Correct, well-played.

Obscure NW Suburb references for a thousand, Alex!!