the above is a portion of M-Hawk's latest post

Agree that TVR improved dramatically this season, and agree that he is the Hawks #4 D-man. What he lacks in speed, he makes up for with positioning and good decision making. Offensively, he seems to know when to pass and when to shoot. He has a decent shot that I'm sure will get even better. Here's a high-level summary of his season compared with Oduya's.


- etchtech

This is great!

Could you compare TVR to Oduya in 2015? Or Oduya in 2014 and 2013?

the above is a portion of M-Hawk's latest post

Agree that TVR improved dramatically this season, and agree that he is the Hawks #4 D-man. What he lacks in speed, he makes up for with positioning and good decision making. Offensively, he seems to know when to pass and when to shoot. He has a decent shot that I'm sure will get even better. Here's a high-level summary of his season compared with Oduya's.


- etchtech

I imagine, too, that the Hawks have some internal metric so that they see these numbers. I assume they believe Seabrook's poorer numbers this year are because he had to babysit all the newbies...

>Toews himself admitted he did not put on a pair of skates this summer until 2 weeks (or less) before training camp
>Toews also said that he had things he needed to work on
>Some of things I believe Toews needs to work on are:
>Reestablishing himself as an open ice threat off the rush 5 on 5 -- JT was very dynamic in open ice in his early years -- his game has stagnated into a series of predictable moves below the goal line (The TVR assist in Game 6 in which JT came with serious speed behind the puck has to happen much more)
>And JT needs to be the open ice 1 on 1 threat he was when younger
>I would encourage JT to practice carrying the puck crossing over at the highest speeds possible
>Also work a lot on speed changes -- JT crossed the blueline at the same speed an awful lot -- easy for the defender to gauge his gap control
>Shot creation -- Kane can now create his own shot in any situation from any area on the ice -- JT needs to improve his overall puck protection and "tight-space" movement sequences to do so
>An area of skating Toews excels in but underutilizes is his mohawk moves -- JT would be smart to borrow a page from Crosby on this skating move -- and add some speed to his mohawks -- would help him escape tight quarters, puck protect and create chances
>Shooting -- Toews while a deadly 5-hole shooter -- can improve greatly in many other areas
>JT seldom, if ever. shoots in stride, does not really have a one-timer, and though he did have an awesome top-shelf slapshot goal this year in the regular season his "clapper" is well below par with his superstar level as an overall player
>There are some overall shot mechanics JT can improve on, too -- but I'm not going to mention them now
>Below the goal line play -- JT needs to add new escape moves into his overall "tight quarters" situations with the puck
>One specific move that would benefit JT greatly is the "chuck" of the defender with the free bottom hand
>That is -- JT pushing the defender away from him with his bottom hand (his left) while controlling the puck with his top hand (his right) to escape
>JT can also learn new passes to himself using the back of the net and/or the backboards
>Additionally, JT can work on using head fakes on the defender to set up escape spin moves
>As I said previously: JT is a great player. Rooting for him to become even greater.
- SnapitUpstairs

Thank you for all of this, and I agree on all points. JT is very predictable these days....the biggest take away is the change of speed and shot creation for me.

Not to compare to Kane, as they are very different players - but Kane utilizes options upon crossing the blue line. He can hit the jets and go wide (admittedly not his forte, but still effective) or pump the breaks and walk the line. This gives the D and backcheckers SO much to think amount, and the amount of space they provide him out of respect is incredible. It's like a point guard at the top of the key.

Toews, more often than not will either put his head down and circle the wagon, or predictably weave and look for a drop pass. Not very dynamic.

Haven't heard from my main sources in a month or so, obviously much has changed. So the following are just my opinions based on what I've heard and seen in the past.

Motte and Schmaltz will be given real shots, where the Great Swedish Defense Cavalry will be on a very short leash with Q at least. Svedberg and Gustafsson were the last Swedes who were supposed to solve 5-7 . . . and they're still here.

Mashinter is gone. Panik is here. Shaw tougher to project. Kruger is not going anywhere.

If no NHL ready talent is brought in at a couple of positions, then expect this to be about the 5th best team in the West next year. Again. Expecting otherwise would be diehard fanboy insanity.

The price of bringing in that talent will be higher than three plane tickets from Stockholm. Could be Crawford. Could be TT. Bickell should be bought out.
- John Jaeckel

We can only hope that Schmaltz and Motte are like the 2012 version of Andrew Shaw and the 2013 Brandon Saad. Learn the ropes next year and come back blazing in their second season.

Next year TVR gets more experience, and hopefully they can get some depth defensemen for the third pairing. If this is the case, then maybe there is a legit shot at a Cup in 2018. Yes, the core will be older, but no one (aside from Hossa) will be so old that they are beyond their respective primes.

Squeeze in the Cup in 2010 before the first purge, retool for the second run in 2013-15, and retool for a final run in 2018-20. I would be thrilled to see that.

Thank you for all of this, and I agree on all points. JT is very predictable these days....the biggest take away is the change of speed and shot creation for me.

Not to compare to Kane, as they are very different players - but Kane utilizes options upon crossing the blue line. He can hit the jets and go wide (admittedly not his forte, but still effective) or pump the breaks and walk the line. This gives the D and backcheckers SO much to think amount, and the amount of space they provide him out of respect is incredible. It's like a point guard at the top of the key.

Toews, more often than not will either put his head down and circle the wagon, or predictably weave and look for a drop pass. Not very dynamic.
- Fat_Tony_Amonte

His burst speed is missing this year, for the most part. He used to be able to take 3-4 strides and blow past defenders but not so much anymore.

Dunno if it's injury or what. Didn't look like the same player this year.

According to some of the experts, dealing the UNGODLY GREAT TT for the likes of Jonathan Drouin was LUNACY!!!!
- John Jaeckel

I see a few posts last night about Drouin lighting it up. At some point I turn on the game to have a look see and the NYI had just scored and the color guy is saying something about a back checking breakdown. They replay the goal and who's the lazy back checker? Jonathon Drouin. Small sample I know, but I could see Q not playing this guy for just that reason. And with the kid's attitude I'm not sure I'd blame him.

Haven't heard from my main sources in a month or so, obviously much has changed. So the following are just my opinions based on what I've heard and seen in the past.

Motte and Schmaltz will be given real shots, where the Great Swedish Defense Cavalry will be on a very short leash with Q at least. Svedberg and Gustafsson were the last Swedes who were supposed to solve 5-7 . . . and they're still here.

Mashinter is gone. Panik is here. Shaw tougher to project. Kruger is not going anywhere.

If no NHL ready talent is brought in at a couple of positions, then expect this to be about the 5th best team in the West next year. Again. Expecting otherwise would be diehard fanboy insanity.

The price of bringing in that talent will be higher than three plane tickets from Stockholm. Could be Crawford. Could be TT. Bickell should be bought out.
- John Jaeckel

John appreciate you keeping up here with all that's going on in your home life right now...thx again. And again congrats.

If TT could have been moved for Drouin - yikes once again Stan wouldn't pull the trigger. And you're certainly not going to get close to what you thought for him now with the bloom off the rose.

Bowman's summer of suck as I'm referring to it could have been avoided...

Bickell should have been bought out along with not resigning Runny allowing Oduya to return. We knew their would be cap consequences this summer but this team should have taken one more shot. We all saw how bad the defense was and for Q and Stan to deny it in the presser yesterday was laughable.

Coupled with the Sharp fiasco of a trade the spring early exit was set in motion last summer. Take a look a couple of seasons back when after 13 they knew they should have more center and defensive depth and pffft...we lose to the Kings because of the GMs lack of foresight.

I have low expectations for Stanley this summer which is probably a good thing.

According to some of the experts, dealing the UNGODLY GREAT TT for the likes of Jonathan Drouin was LUNACY!!!!
- John Jaeckel

I would have gladly made the deal last time, even just based on Drouin's small sample size, you could see he can take and give the body, and he has fantastic vision and puck skills. Might not be a sniper, but he'd make his teammates look great with those assists.

I see a few posts last night about Drouin lighting it up. At some point I turn on the game to have a look see and the NYI had just scored and the color guy is saying something about a back checking breakdown. They replay the goal and who's the lazy back checker? Jonathon Drouin. Small sample I know, but I could see Q not playing this guy for just that reason. And with the kid's attitude I'm not sure I'd blame him.
- 6628

Isn't his agent supposed to be difficult to deal with? I wouldn't imagine Y giving into his demands, and how much of this was Drouin being played as a pawn.

I'd still take him for TT, every day of the week. Seen enough of TT getting blasted off the puck, or short stopping when a butterfly crossed his path.

According to some of the experts, dealing the UNGODLY GREAT TT for the likes of Jonathan Drouin was LUNACY!!!!
- John Jaeckel

Was this a real proposed deal that Stan turned down?

has Schmaltz signed yet? Any concern in FO about this

Isn't his agent supposed to be difficult to deal with? I wouldn't imagine Y giving into his demands, and how much of this was Drouin being played as a pawn.

I'd still take him for TT, every day of the week. Seen enough of TT getting blasted off the puck, or short stopping when a butterfly crossed his path.
- howiehandles

I'd feel better with a promise from Q that he'll work with him or I wouldn't bother.

Isn't his agent supposed to be difficult to deal with? I wouldn't imagine Y giving into his demands, and how much of this was Drouin being played as a pawn.

I'd still take him for TT, every day of the week. Seen enough of TT getting blasted off the puck, or short stopping when a butterfly crossed his path.
- howiehandles

6628 raises a valid point, you can't fault TT for his defensive effort as far as getting back and back checking. And you can fault Drouin there at times.

Would be the kiss of death with Q, too.

All that said, Drouin is built much differently and has a very strong lower body and is NHL ready in that regard as you say Howie, he can give and take, where TT wants no part of either.

I think both players have some maturity/attitude issues honestly, that translate into poor effort at times. if I were coaching, i would sit a guy for obviously pulling up and losing pucks to avoid contact, or turning pucks over in that regard leading to goals, I remember one in particular against Salomaki earlier in the season. But Q has given TT lots of rope. And in that regard, his comments yesterday are very telling to me.

I guess the difference I see is Drouin can assert himself in a game at this point and really be a difference maker. TT has not shown that, in spite of the hype. He is OK/good IN SOME WAYS with and without the puck, but he is not a difference maker. And remember, he was drafted the year BEFORE Drouin.

Was this a real proposed deal that Stan turned down?
- StLBravesFan

I heard from two sources putting TT in the deal would have landed Drouin. FWIW.

We can all second guess it now, instead Dano went for Ladd. The rest is history.

But the Hawks would have Drouin going forward at least. And while we're accurately pointing out that Drouin gives marginal/occasional effort on the back check, same was true of Patrick Kane his first 3-4 seasons. Basically spotty until 2013 IMO.

6628 raises a valid point, you can't fault TT for his defensive effort as far as getting back and back checking. And you can fault Drouin there at times.

Would be the kiss of death with Q, too.

All that said, Drouin is built much differently and has a very strong lower body and is NHL ready in that regard as you say Howie, he can give and take, where TT wants no part of either.

I think both players have some maturity/attitude issues honestly, that translate into poor effort at times. if I were coaching, i would sit a guy for obviously pulling up and losing pucks to avoid contact, or turning pucks over in that regard leading to goals, I remember one in particular against Salomaki earlier in the season. But Q has given TT lots of rope. And in that regard, his comments yesterday are very telling to me.

I guess the difference I see is Drouin can assert himself in a game at this point and really be a difference maker. TT has not shown that, in spite of the hype. He is OK/good IN SOME WAYS with and without the puck, but he is not a difference maker. And remember, he was drafted the year BEFORE Drouin.
- John Jaeckel

No question JD is built for the NHL game where TT is built for Europe and that helps a bunch with being a potential difference maker. The Andrew Shaws of this world are few and far between.

I heard from two sources putting TT in the deal would have landed Drouin. FWIW.

We can all second guess it now, instead Dano went for Ladd. The rest is history.

But the Hawks would have Drouin going forward at least. And while we're accurately pointing out that Drouin gives marginal/occasional effort on the back check, same was true of Patrick Kane his first 3-4 seasons. Basically spotty until 2013 IMO.
- John Jaeckel

You're rolling

John appreciate you keeping up here with all that's going on in your home life right now...thx again. And again congrats.

If TT could have been moved for Drouin - yikes once again Stan wouldn't pull the trigger. And you're certainly not going to get close to what you thought for him now with the bloom off the rose.

Bowman's summer of suck as I'm referring to it could have been avoided...

Bickell should have been bought out along with not resigning Runny allowing Oduya to return. We knew their would be cap consequences this summer but this team should have taken one more shot. We all saw how bad the defense was and for Q and Stan to deny it in the presser yesterday was laughable.

Coupled with the Sharp fiasco of a trade the spring early exit was set in motion last summer. Take a look a couple of seasons back when after 13 they knew they should have more center and defensive depth and pffft...we lose to the Kings because of the GMs lack of foresight.

I have low expectations for Stanley this summer which is probably a good thing.
- DK002

I look at three pivotal moves the last two summers:

Leddy, Saad, Sharp/Johns.

What do the Hawks have to show for those three trades? Ville Pokka, Artem Anisimov and indirectly, (Jeremy Morin was re-acquired in the Saad deal) Richard Panik.

Overall, Stan is a net negative on those deals. Fairly substantially although he did save some cap room.

When i look at the deals form 2010-11, again, substantial cap savings, but pretty horrible net player return.

The thing about the trades of the last two summers is there is evidence he waited a LONG time to pull the trigger on Leddy and Sharp/Johns. And it is HARD to believe that he received lesser offers up to the point he dealt them in either case.

The problem with Bowman and this front office (post-Tallon) is they are slow to act and they have a reputation (deserved or not) throughout the NHL that they are difficult to trade with because they never seem to want to finalize anything for do value for value deals (which I have heard from both the Hawk organization and another NHL organization).

Interestingly, you can argue Anisimov, Dano and Morin were the best return of any of the three deals. The difference? Bowman and the FO KNEW he had to act quickly and take the best offer.

Maybe they learn from that and do the same this summer. If they wait, I believe 29 other GMs know you can wait them out and get them to cave for whatever they can get at the last minute (Sharp, Leddy, Bickell, etc).

And then they will talk about the Great Wave of Swedish D-Men coming, TT's brilliant offseason and becoming the Incredible Hulk, etc.

It's put up or shut up time for this FO.

I'd feel better with a promise from Q that he'll work with him or I wouldn't bother.
- 6628

Not unless Drouin:
>is good at washing and waxing a luxury vehicle
>knows where the best cleaners is in every city
>is a good knob polisher
>has a photog friend that can give him those "special" Q pics

With Q, you are either in or out.
There is little, if any patience, for certain players unless see list above.

Would love to hear the inside story on why certain guys ended up in the Q doghouse to never exit, or if they did, only to find themselves back there very quickly.

Personally, would love to REALLY hear the inside scoop from Trevor Daley, that's the one that really pisses me off. A guy with 10 years of NHL experience who apparently feels from the outset he's an outsider?

I need to stop being upset with what happened last summer, But with being out in the 1st round and having no 1st or 2nd it is very hard to be happy.

We move sharp and Steeg for picks early and give up 1st and 2nd, 3rd to get bicks off the books last summer. We would have SAAD 5.5, JO 3.0, JOHNS , PAlliota danult on the team last year and this. and the only person we would be removing from next years team is AA and 2 4th round picks and Maybe we let Seabs walk if he does not do a more reasonable deal. Which is fine.

We would not have needed LADD, and danult would be in for WEISS or FLesch.

Ouside of landing Vesey and CAgguia and and 2 of Zaitsev, Kempny, Hulstrom. I will probably not be able to be excited about anything.



How does a ORG that has that much staff and management be so unprepared for the off season. Look at there 2015 draft. Talk about god awful. At this point we do not even have anyone that would project as a AVG AHL player.

you would like to think they learned from the leddy deal about waiting to long, But the next off season and they did the same thing but even worse. Sharp, Steeg, Ranta, Nillson should have all been moved at the draft, But they waited until there was no market after FA started and got less then nothing in return. As soon as we did not move sharp and Steeg. All the leverage with SAAD and getting a offer sheet was in his corner.

Quick, Holtby and Bishop named for the Vezina.

No Crawford. I guess he had a rough finish to the season.

Well boys and girls it’s that time of year again (albeit much earlier than we would like for sure). The offseason sometimes brings us excitement, sometimes frustration but if anything its always interesting. Someone posted a question of whether we would want to see Crawford or Seabrook traded in order to alleviate some of our cap woes. It got me to thinking. Before I give my suggestion I want to preface it first as I know many of you would just read it and go straight to bashing it. There are many that simply wear the rose colored glasses too tight and many that cannot fathom trading away a piece of this core. I mean after all they won 3 cups in 6 years right?

Well here is the rub, the chances of the Hawks winning another cup are very slim. Whether they trade any of the core of not. This is not me being pessimistic it is simply how things are in a salary cap, parity driven league. I am not saying they can’t or won’t win another (or more) I am just saying the odds are very much against them. That being said I feel like maybe it’s time to think outside the box a little. Maybe do something so bold most of us didn’t see it coming.

Again before I get down to the nitty gritty and you all berate me for this trade idea I will say this- I don’t think the Hawks should do it, I do not want the Hawks to do it and furthermore the chances of them being able to pull it off are slim to none (more on that below). I know the players in this proposal are very important to this team. I know this teams get weakened (at least in the short term) by this trade. But there are some things to consider. This team, as it stands, will most likely lose Shaw this summer. And, unless one of Seabrook or Crawford are traded next summer, will lose Panarin too. That’s two young players gone. This team needs to get younger not older. And with those loses we will STILL be a top heavy team with no room to maneuver. This trade solves a lot of cap issues and allows us to fill some of the bottom six/bottom pairing holes with more than ALH scrubs (Mashinter) or low cost vets way past their prime with nothing to offer (Rosi).

So Crawford or Seabrook? Well…..BOTH! Hear me out!!!!!!!!

I would like to see Stanbo offer up both to Edm for Nurse, Talbot and a pick (2017 1st would be great, we are not getting their 1st this year, but honestly whatever we can get). Again read above, there is no way this can happen as both would need to waive to go to the same place, Edm of all places at that (however maybe they would be willing to play for a young team that has a stud in McDavid? I mean they won cups already not like it will ruin their careers). So I get it, but here is why I would like to see it.

Why Edm would do it- In Seabrook they get what they desperately need which is a proven leader and winner on the blueline to help stabilize it and provide invaluable mentorship to their defense corp. Seabrook can play HEAVY minutes and PP/PK as well. Think of it like Boston getting Chara (and remind me who is Edm’s GM?). In Crawford they get yet another proven winner in net. Teams like to build from the net out, well mission accomplished! Remember Edm is at the point too where they need to do something bold as well. Plus they still have forwards they can trade to help furthermore stabalize their d.

Why Chi would do it-well for one TONS of cap space, like 10M opens up and that does not include buying out Bickel. They get a young dman that can be mentored by Keith and Hammer. I think he can become a much better player learning here than in Edm. They get a decent to good cost controlled goaltender that can not only challenge Darling for playing time but also be someone you won’t cringe to have to put in net if Darling were to get injured (his stats were not great in Edm but they sure were in NY). Plus if they got a 1st out of Edm (doubt they could) that could help replenish the farm a little. This also means Shaw gets signed long term and Panarin as well. It also means we can add another legit #4 or 5 dman in FA or trade (if we got an Edm pick that could be used) and also plug the bottom 6 with better than scrub players.

Again out of the box trade but something I would not be pissed to see happen. The Hawks get younger and cap flexible. To me this would be the perfect retool if it were to happen (and it won’t).

I see a few posts last night about Drouin lighting it up. At some point I turn on the game to have a look see and the NYI had just scored and the color guy is saying something about a back checking breakdown. They replay the goal and who's the lazy back checker? Jonathon Drouin. Small sample I know, but I could see Q not playing this guy for just that reason. And with the kid's attitude I'm not sure I'd blame him.
- 6628

Further, do you know who I see consistently back checking like a banshee?
TT, an early 20's player, he busts back like he's paid to back check.

I heard from two sources putting TT in the deal would have landed Drouin. FWIW.

We can all second guess it now, instead Dano went for Ladd. The rest is history.

But the Hawks would have Drouin going forward at least. And while we're accurately pointing out that Drouin gives marginal/occasional effort on the back check, same was true of Patrick Kane his first 3-4 seasons. Basically spotty until 2013 IMO.
- John Jaeckel

Dano and TT for Drouin?

Tough decision there - three young potential-laden under-21s.

As it all turned out, I would have done it; I think probably yes at the time (Dec/Jan?) not knowing how it all turned out.

But I think a tough decision for Stan at the time.

Instead of acting like a fantasy league owner, we all need to analyze this like actual REAL hockey GMs, players and agents.

Think about the scenario where Seabrook's agent and Seabs are negotiating with the Hawks and during the season sign a forward 8 year, $50+m contract.

Forget about that silly little speed bump called a full No Movement Clause that was negotiated into his contract from now through 2022.

Thinking about this from the perspective of a real player, agent and GM, is there any chance that Seabrook is traded before this new contract even kicks in?

Can someone cite an example in any sport (other than an NBA sign-and-trade where the trade was actually PART OF the signing) where a player signed a big money, long term contract and was traded within 12 months of signing? Within 24 months? (note, the NBA system is weird in this regard, so careful in citing examples there. significant contracts are thrown into a trade because the money needs to be evened up. If you cite an NBA example, make sure the player you're citing wasnt just a lesser player thrown in to even up money. Only cite NBA deals if the player you're citing was the main player in the trade).

Seabrook is not getting traded. Kruger is not getting traded. AA is not getting traded.

I look at three pivotal moves the last two summers:

Leddy, Saad, Sharp/Johns.

What do the Hawks have to show for those three trades? Ville Pokka, Artem Anisimov and indirectly, (Jeremy Morin was re-acquired in the Saad deal) Richard Panik.

Overall, Stan is a net negative on those deals. Fairly substantially although he did save some cap room.

When i look at the deals form 2010-11, again, substantial cap savings, but pretty horrible net player return.

The thing about the trades of the last two summers is there is evidence he waited a LONG time to pull the trigger on Leddy and Sharp/Johns. And it is HARD to believe that he received lesser offers up to the point he dealt them in either case.

The problem with Bowman and this front office (post-Tallon) is they are slow to act and they have a reputation (deserved or not) throughout the NHL that they are difficult to trade with because they never seem to want to finalize anything for do value for value deals (which I have heard from both the Hawk organization and another NHL organization).

Interestingly, you can argue Anisimov, Dano and Morin were the best return of any of the three deals. The difference? Bowman and the FO KNEW he had to act quickly and take the best offer.

Maybe they learn from that and do the same this summer. If they wait, I believe 29 other GMs know you can wait them out and get them to cave for whatever they can get at the last minute (Sharp, Leddy, Bickell, etc).

And then they will talk about the Great Wave of Swedish D-Men coming, TT's brilliant offseason and becoming the Incredible Hulk, etc.

It's put up or shut up time for this FO.
- John Jaeckel

On Leddy: I think you have to say Pokka AND Oduya for one more year.

Otherwise - it seems that either Bowman really misplayed the market the last two purges, or there wasn't a market for Leddy and Sharp - or there was one that had dried up by the time the deals were made.

Had there been a market - even at a late date when Stan was under pressure - demand would have bid the price up and Stan could have gotten more back.