Want a testimony on how much of an impact a good coach can have a roster. Let's look at a very similar talented team in Flyers. They were horrible at the start of the year with their previous coach. They didn't make any big moves and with their new coach they were able to make the playoffs. Sometimes, you have to just accept that internal promotions don't always work. After failing 4-5 times straight under Murray, I think Dorion must establish his pace... he has no choice to go for a very big name out there. Someone like Claude Julien... he's from Ottawa right?
- PtotheY

So basically what Cameron did with this team last year?

I've said it before and again I will repeat: The Sens overachieved the last two seasons.

This year, they had career offensive years from:
Karlsson
Ceci
Stone
Pageau
Smith
Lazar (not that it means much with him)
Zibby
Hoffman

I know I'm simply repeating myself but it blows my mind that people can blame a coach for a team's defensive issues when the team had three legitimate Dman for 3/4 of the season.

I know I'm simply repeating myself but it blows my mind that people can blame a coach for a team's defensive issues when the team had three legitimate Dman for 3/4 of the season.
- Charliebox

There is enough blame to go around. Players, management, and coaching staff.

You can't possibly think that the coaching staff was blameless in this.

It sucks, but Cameron did need to be moved out. That's not all that needs to be done. However, the coaching and system needs to change. I'm not sure how much player change will be going on, but there will be some. Management has already changed as well ( though I'm not sure how much management is influenced by ownership over ruling ). It's not like reasonable people are saying the coaching staff is the ONLY problem. It definitely WAS a problem though.

Sounds like front runners for Frozen Four MOP Drake Caggiula are (in no order): CHI, EDM, PHI, VAN and OTT. I think BUF is in the mix, too.
- Frank Seravalli ‏@frank_seravalli 18m18 minutes ago

There is enough blame to go around. Players, management, and coaching staff.

You can't possibly think that the coaching staff was blameless in this.

It sucks, but Cameron did need to be moved out. That's not all that needs to be done. However, the coaching and system needs to change. I'm not sure how much player change will be going on, but there will be some. Management has already changed as well ( though I'm not sure how much management is influenced by ownership over ruling ). It's not like reasonable people are saying the coaching staff is the ONLY problem. It definitely WAS a problem though.
- MaxTLimit

Of course I don't think that.. but to me, it goes

Ownership, management, coaching, players.

The last two could be reverseable.

Melnyk comes in and says, 'big changes are coming'. What happens? We promote management from within, which is hardly a big change. We will (likely) have the vast majority of the same players back next season. I don't see the Sens making any blockbuster moves.

So basically 'big changes' = firing the coaching staff.

That means we've had 'big changes' six times in the last decade....but at the end of the day, nothing really changes.

So basically what Cameron did with this team last year?

I've said it before and again I will repeat: The Sens overachieved the last two seasons.

This year, they had career offensive years from:
Karlsson
Ceci
Stone
Pageau
Smith
Lazar (not that it means much with him)
Zibby
Hoffman

I know I'm simply repeating myself but it blows my mind that people can blame a coach for a team's defensive issues when the team had three legitimate Dman for 3/4 of the season.
- Charliebox

you realize that more than half the guys you named are 2nd year players right....not exactly hard to have "career years".

and yes, you can blame the coaches. the coaches put the systems in place, they put the PK and PP systems in place.....and when they realize that those systems aren't working then they change them up. every players ottawa had on teh roster this year (with the exception of cowen) was an NHL calibre player.......maybe not top six/four but good enough to make an NHL roster. there is NO EXCUSE for why our PK and PP were so friggin awful.....except coaching.

you realize that more than half the guys you named are 2nd year players right....not exactly hard to have "career years".

and yes, you can blame the coaches. the coaches put the systems in place, they put the PK and PP systems in place.....and when they realize that those systems aren't working then they change them up. every players ottawa had on teh roster this year (with the exception of cowen) was an NHL calibre player.......maybe not top six/four but good enough to make an NHL roster. there is NO EXCUSE for why our PK and PP were so friggin awful.....except coaching.
- sensarmy_11

Since when is 3 2nd yr players vs 5 3rd or more = 'more than half'?

As I've said before, Cameron said his mandate at the beginning of the year was to 'develop the young guys'.

Maybe he's lying.. who knows.

Based on all those guys having career years, and our young guys progressing fairly well, I would say he fulfilled his mandate.

Just to add.. both Stone and Hoffman avoided the common sophomore slump. So even though it is only their 2nd season, the fact that they had career years after both having such outstanding rookie seasons is actually pretty rare.

There is enough blame to go around. Players, management, and coaching staff.

You can't possibly think that the coaching staff was blameless in this.

It sucks, but Cameron did need to be moved out. That's not all that needs to be done. However, the coaching and system needs to change. I'm not sure how much player change will be going on, but there will be some. Management has already changed as well ( though I'm not sure how much management is influenced by ownership over ruling ). It's not like reasonable people are saying the coaching staff is the ONLY problem. It definitely WAS a problem though.
- MaxTLimit

Since when is 3 2nd yr players vs 5 3rd or more = 'more than half'?

As I've said before, Cameron said his mandate at the beginning of the year was to 'develop the young guys'.

Maybe he's lying.. who knows.

Based on all those guys having career years, and our young guys progressing fairly well, I would say he fulfilled his mandate.

Just to add.. both Stone and Hoffman avoided the common sophomore slump. So even though it is only their 2nd season, the fact that they had career years after both having such outstanding rookie seasons is actually pretty rare.
- Charliebox

I'm sure that his mandate wasn't to strictly "develop the young guys". Of course that was part of his job. A bigger part of his job is winning hockey games and they didn't do that. He didn't put the systems in place for them to win. This was especially noticeable defensively of course, the Senators were just fine in the scoring department.

And yes, it's true that he had to work with Cowen and Wiercioch and Boro all year. Boro was clearly the lesser of those three evils, so he ran with Boro a little more often.

Boro, a guy who I think we all acknowledge is probably at best a #6, and more likely a spot starter at #7. Boro, a guy who this coach chose to pair with the best dman in the world lots of times. Boro, a guy who the coach put at forward when he had perfectly good forwards collecting dust in the press box. Boro, a guy who the coach put on the first line PP instead of rolling his actual scorers out there.

Cameron didn't have a ton of defensive tools available, no one is debating that. But his decisions with some of those tools were completely questionable. Again, part of the problem, as much so as any other problem on the team, and when changes are necessary, him being fired is a necessary and impactful one.

I don't think for one second that anyone is looking at Senators management or the players on the ice and giving them a pass. They've changed the manager, now they've changed the coach, and next they'll change the players who aren't working. They're doing what they said they were going to do. Leaving Cameron et al in their spots would have done nothing to show this fanbase that the team was interested in progressing. The results this year were not acceptable and Cameron played a part in that.

Since when is 3 2nd yr players vs 5 3rd or more = 'more than half'?

As I've said before, Cameron said his mandate at the beginning of the year was to 'develop the young guys'.

Maybe he's lying.. who knows.

Based on all those guys having career years, and our young guys progressing fairly well,
- Charliebox

I would say he fulfilled his mandate.

Just to add.. both Stone and Hoffman avoided the common sophomore slump. So even though it is only their 2nd season, the fact that they had career years after both having such outstanding rookie seasons is actually pretty rare.

I'm pretty sure Melnyk didn't tell Cameron in order to fulfill your mandate:

Please DON'T make the playoffs,
be the team that allows the most shots on goal per game,
be bottom 5 for PP,
be bottom 5 for PK,
Make weird line combo that no other coach would make like putting a #6/7 D on the first line and put your best goal scorer on the 4th line!! Yes Hoff might have some defensive deficiencies but you're not teaching him by strapping him with Neil, Dzirzinski (sp?) & Chiasson that's for sure! He's a 2nd year player for crying out loud! You teach him, you put more responsible players with him but not freaking 4th line players for 5+ games! There's teaching a lesson and there's OVER teaching a lesson...

Like many has said, is the coach the only problem? no! but DEFINETLY a major part of the problem...and the ENTIRE coaching staff is to blame, especially when it stayed the same when Mac was fired...

I'm very happy with our D right now; top 4 D is perfect the way it is. Add a #5 defensive D which should come cheap enough and the D is set. I would keep Wideman and Boro as 6 & 7...bye bye Wier...

Forwards will depend on who stays, who goes and who can still play (Mac?)...If Mac can come back healthy and the Hoff is re-signed( ), then only a top 2 LW is needed...that way if injury happen again (which it will but hopefully not as bad), then Mac, Smith or Pageau (NOT all 3!) can step up to replace the injury on the top 6. Neil is already signed so he's back...Lazar is here to stay (even though I still say he was rushed way back then)... hopefully it's the end with Chiasson and give more time to a newbie or 2...

I don't think for one second that anyone is looking at Senators management or the players on the ice and giving them a pass. They've changed the manager, now they've changed the coach, and next they'll change the players who aren't working. They're doing what they said they were going to do. Leaving Cameron et al in their spots would have done nothing to show this fanbase that the team was interested in progressing. The results this year were not acceptable and Cameron played a part in that.

You know what's crazy?

This exact paragraph has been said six times in the last decade.

"It wasn't only the coaches fault" has been said over and over and over.. six times.. but all that ever changes is the coach.

That's on management and ownership.

You know what's crazy?

This exact paragraph has been said six times in the last decade.

"It wasn't only the coaches fault" has been said over and over and over.. six times.. but all that ever changes is the coach.

That's on management and ownership.
- Charliebox

And for the first time in nearly a decade, they changed management.

Now, if you want to change the owner, that's a different story...

I will admit, we probably do need a change behind the bench.

Thing is, I'm taking this firing with the knowledge of what just happened on Sunday.

We promoted from within. We promoted an assistant GM for god sakes. Dorion has been here forever.. he's the guy that tells us every summer how great our team is and how amazing all our prospects are. I'm starting to wonder if Dorion wasn't just drinking the kool aid, but if he was actually the guy mixing it up.

We were told 'big changes' and all we are getting is a new coach. Management is going to continue on the same course.

If we have hired a new GM from outside the organization and he wanted a new coach, then by all means. Thing is, we promoted a guy who probably had a say in hiring Cameron in the first place. This isn't 'cleaning house'. It's a (frank)ing cop-out.

And for the first time in nearly a decade, they changed management.

Now,
- the_terror

if you want to change the owner

, that's a different story...

PLEASE!!!

I will admit, we probably do need a change behind the bench.

Thing is, I'm taking this firing with the knowledge of what just happened on Sunday.

We promoted from within. We promoted an assistant GM for god sakes. Dorion has been here forever.. he's the guy that tells us every summer how great our team is and how amazing all our prospects are. I'm starting to wonder if Dorion wasn't just drinking the kool aid, but if he was actually the guy mixing it up.

We were told 'big changes' and all we are getting is a new coach. Management is going to continue on the same course.

If we have hired a new GM from outside the organization and he wanted a new coach, then by all means. Thing is, we promoted a guy who probably had a say in hiring Cameron in the first place. This isn't 'cleaning house'. It's a (frank)ing cop-out.
- Charliebox

Ok, holy dude. Just chill for a minute. Do you read this stuff before hitting that submit button?

'...all we are getting is a new coach.' Even if they did nothing else, that's not 'all' we are getting. They fired EVERY coach. That's FOUR new coaches.

Second of all, did GM Dorion not say on that presser today, when asked about the players, that 'changes were coming'? That's EXACTLY what he said. Surely you're not so cynical that you can't appreciate the fact that he's been on the job for literally 48 hours, and that moving players around takes a little wee bit longer than that?

The rhetoric around hiring Cameron when he was hired is that it was all Melnyk's doing, and that the former GM Murray and his staff didn't want him. Now, we've changed that little tale to it being something Dorion was in on? When Cameron was hired he was not even the assistant GM, that was Tim Murray.

And yes they promoted from within. I ask you, what other options were there? They have an important draft coming up in two months and more than half the teams with guys who might be good for this job are still playing hockey. That doesn't leave a lot of time to carry out due diligence. And again, you're crucifying the guy because he was an internal hire.

Sorry bud, all of your responses are coming off as completely reactionary.

As a bit of an update:

Dorion tells @TSN1200 that #Sens are a finalist for FA winger Drake Caggiula, a 5-10, 180pder who had 25 G, 26 A in 39 GP for North Dakota
- Don Brennan ‏@SunDoniB 18m18 minutes ago

and another of interest:

Dorion "we are likely to keep White down, we have a tendency to rush our prospects"
- oh ya he's a Murray parrot for sure.
- management changes
‏@Don_inFarrhaven

Colin White will be left down for a while it seems. Probably for the best.

I will admit, we probably do need a change behind the bench.

Thing is, I'm taking this firing with the knowledge of what just happened on Sunday.

We promoted from within. We promoted an assistant GM for god sakes. Dorion has been here forever.. he's the guy that tells us every summer how great our team is and how amazing all our prospects are. I'm starting to wonder if Dorion wasn't just drinking the kool aid, but if he was actually the guy mixing it up.

We were told 'big changes' and all we are getting is a new coach. Management is going to continue on the same course.

If we have hired a new GM from outside the organization and he wanted a new coach, then by all means.
- Charliebox

Thing is, we promoted a guy who probably had a say in hiring Cameron in the first place.

This isn't 'cleaning house'. It's a (frank)ing cop-out.

Not saying necessarily that Dorion is the best man for the job but we lost the last 2 "next in line" in Chiarelli and Tim Murray so...
And I can GUARANTEE you that Cameron WASN'T Dorion's choice, Melnyk promised Dave a coaching job 4/5 years ago when he was coaching at St. Mike’s and the World Juniors...

As a bit of an update:



and another of interest:



Colin White will be left down for a while it seems. Probably for the best.
- MaxTLimit

Yes, that would be good! We rushed Lazar, even Z...don't want to do that again with newbie prospects...

As a bit of an update:



and another of interest:



Colin White will be left down for a while it seems. Probably for the best.
- MaxTLimit

College players rarely amount to much, but an extra prospect is never a bad thing.

I figured they'd give White a shot at camp, but as you say likely for hte best. When they say "left down", do they mean in the college system or in Bingo? Bingo would likely be best for his development.

Ok, holy dude. Just chill for a minute. Do you read this stuff before hitting that submit button?

'...all we are getting is a new coach.' Even if they did nothing else, that's not 'all' we are getting. They fired EVERY coach. That's FOUR new coaches.

Second of all, did GM Dorion not say on that presser today, when asked about the players, that 'changes were coming'? That's EXACTLY what he said. Surely you're not so cynical that you can't appreciate the fact that he's been on the job for literally 48 hours, and that moving players around takes a little wee bit longer than that?

The rhetoric around hiring Cameron when he was hired is that it was all Melnyk's doing, and that the former GM Murray and his staff didn't want him. Now, we've changed that little tale to it being something Dorion was in on? When Cameron was hired he was not even the assistant GM, that was Tim Murray.

And yes they promoted from within. I ask you, what other options were there? They have an important draft coming up in two months and more than half the teams with guys who might be good for this job are still playing hockey. That doesn't leave a lot of time to carry out due diligence. And again, you're crucifying the guy because he was an internal hire.

Sorry bud, all of your responses are coming off as completely reactionary.
- the_terror

Reactionary? Firing Cameron was reactionary.

As for my comments about Dorion and Cameron, you could be right. I know the rumors were that he was Melnyk's guy. Let's assume you're right. Let's assume that Dorion had nothing to do with it.

What about Dorion and MacLean?
Dorion and Harstberg?
Dorion and Clouston?

Are you saying that the assistant GM had no say in the revolving door of coaches that have come around this team? Were they all on Murray and Melnyk?

Murray said the other day, after Dorion was hired, that they already made all decisions together and he doesn't expect much to change on that front. So, yes.. sure Dorion will be his own man, but he was already Murray's right hand man. Murray is battling cancer remember.. Dorion probably had more say in daily management decisions over the past two seasons than any other assistant GM in the league.

Murray said awhile ago that Dorion is the guy who basically does all the contract stuff.

Simply promoting a GM is NOT the same as bringing someone in from outside the organization. Not even close... especially considering the special circumstances that this teams' management has found itself in since Bryan was diagnosed.

As for the other options? You can hire another GM. There's 3 months till the draft. That's alot of time.

If you don't feel comfortable doing that, you can keep Murray on through the draft and then find someone in the summer. I am sure if Murray was asked by Melnyk, he would have done just that. Since Murray says everything is done as a 'team' anyways, he would have pretty much just been the figure head anyways.

Reactionary? Firing Cameron was reactionary.

As for my comments about Dorion and Cameron, you could be right. I know the rumors were that he was Melnyk's guy. Let's assume you're right. Let's assume that Dorion had nothing to do with it.

What about Dorion and MacLean?
Dorion and Harstberg?
Dorion and Clouston?

Are you saying that the assistant GM had no say in the revolving door of coaches that have come around this team? Were they all on Murray and Melnyk?

Murray said the other day, after Dorion was hired, that they already made all decisions together and he doesn't expect much to change on that front. So, yes.. sure Dorion will be his own man, but he was already Murray's right hand man. Murray is battling cancer remember.. Dorion probably had more say in daily management decisions over the past two seasons than any other assistant GM in the league.

Murray said awhile ago that Dorion is the guy who basically does all the contract stuff.

Simply promoting a GM is NOT the same as bringing someone in from outside the organization. Not even close... especially considering the special circumstances that this teams' management has found itself in since Bryan was diagnosed.

As for the other options? You can hire another GM. There's 3 months till the draft. That's alot of time.

If you don't feel comfortable doing that, you can keep Murray on through the draft and then find someone in the summer. I am sure if Murray was asked by Melnyk, he would have done just that. Since Murray says everything is done as a 'team' anyways, he would have pretty much just been the figure head anyways.
- Charliebox

Dorion was a scout and then director of player personnel less then 2 years ago...he became the assistant GM (along with Randy Lee) after Tim Murray left for the Sabres...

I figured they'd give White a shot at camp, but as you say likely for hte best. When they say "left down", do they mean in the college system or in Bingo? Bingo would likely be best for his development.
- david22

I'm assuming they get that ELC done now that his season is done and he starts in Bingo next year....That's what I'd assume anyhow.

The smartest thing Dorion can do is go out and get an established coach with a winning pedigree and PAY HIM well with term, so the players know he is not going anywhere!
Now let's see who becomes available and see what they do.
The hiring will tell you everything about the Senators.

Dorion was a scout and then director of player personnel less then 2 years ago...he became the assistant GM (along with Randy Lee) after Tim Murray left for the Sabres...
- Raven33

Well ok then.


I take back my comment about the coaches then.

Dorion may do a fantastic job. I may be blinded by my hatred for Melnyk, but to me, promoting from within, after all the blunders that management has made, doesn't strike me as 'big changes'.

Since when is 3 2nd yr players vs 5 3rd or more = 'more than half'?

As I've said before, Cameron said his mandate at the beginning of the year was to 'develop the young guys'.

Maybe he's lying.. who knows.

Based on all those guys having career years, and our young guys progressing fairly well, I would say he fulfilled his mandate.

Just to add.. both Stone and Hoffman avoided the common sophomore slump. So even though it is only their 2nd season, the fact that they had career years after both having such outstanding rookie seasons is actually pretty rare.
- Charliebox

m'eh.....stone, hoff, and lazar are truly in only their 2nd years. ceci and pageau are technically in their 3rd, although both only played 1/2 to 1/3 of the games in their 1st year. so really, this is their 2nd "full year" in the NHL.

either way, we're talking about a poopload of guys with almost no experience....these guys will have a new "career year" almost every year for the first few years. they aren't "career years" they're just natural progression.

and the sophmore slump is just a myth IMO......it only exists when guys have ridiculously unsustainable first years. both stone had hoffman had good first years and stayed about the same in their 2nd year.

finally, none of this has anything to do with coaching......if anything, you could say that these guys maintained their production despite terrible coaching decisions on player deployment.

putting your best goal scorer on the 4th line is terrible coaching.....putting ryan on a line with gomez and dzingel is terrible coaching......putting boro at forward when guys like prince and puempel sit in the press box is terrible coaching......playing cowen at all was terrible coaching.....continuing to run the same PP and PK systems despite being the absolute worst in the league is terrible coaching

finally, none of this has anything to do with coaching......if anything, you could say that these guys maintained their production despite terrible coaching decisions on player deployment.

putting your best goal scorer on the 4th line is terrible coaching.....putting ryan on a line with gomez and dzingel is terrible coaching......putting boro at forward when guys like prince and puempel sit in the press box is terrible coaching......playing cowen at all was terrible coaching.....continuing to run the same PP and PK systems despite being the absolute worst in the league is terrible coaching
- sensarmy_11

Putting Hoffman on the 4th line was punishment. We all know that. It was Cameron's attempt to get him to be defensively responsible....developing players.. it's the same deal with sitting Prince out.

You can't honestly believe that Cameron was putting him there cause that's where he thought Hoffman would score the most goals?

As for where Ryan played, he didn't have many options. He wanted to split Ryan and Zibby up because the two of them had been floating around for weeks on end. He wasn't going to put Ryan with Pageau because Pageau was part of our best line and he didn't want to split them up. So he wasn't left with many options. Put him with Gomez or Lazar.. not much difference, offensively, there.

Never really liked the hiring of Cameron from the beginning. Hard to see huge changes happen when you just promote a guy who was helping preach what the other guy who got canned was. I have the same concern with the Dorian hiring, but it is what it is. I'll let him get to work and hopefully he can prove me wrong.

I don't think coaching was the main problem, but it was a problem. Bigger problems exist, but this was a move that had to be made after the owner basically calls him stupid. Hopefully they bring in an experienced guy for once who has experience taking a team in transition and make them more competitive.

Roster problems do still exist though. We won't be doing much better if we don't add a couple of decent skaters while not letting any of the existing decent ones go. 3 year window to win with this group before contracts get messy.