I really dont think 20 games in a brand new system sandwiched around a stint in the minors is enough time to evaluate a former top 5 pick who is still 26 and has shown some offensive ability. yea the points arent being racked up but neither was it for voracek. but because he has a pedigree people can be patient, and look what happened. gagner DOES NOT, and please dont think im comparing gagner to voracek, he does not have that same pedigree, but he has potential. and why not leave no stone unturned and really see what we have instead of assuming we have nothing?

i mean does it really hurt us this year? ur telling me youd rather have umberger out there?
- sjk540

Let's paint a picture here. Let's think about Voracek's game, and what it looked like when he was in a scoring slump, compared to what Gagner's game looks like when he's not scoring. See the difference? I've seen enough of Gagner
We're talking about different kinds of player, in different roles. In Umberger's role, I'd rather have Umberger than Gagner. I'm not going to play Umberger on a top scoring line, or on the PP.

Gagner is not a creative center, he's an offensive player who can't produce. Gagner has put up one assist in his last 15 games. Those changes are not going to propel the Flyers into the playoffs. That is grossly overrating Gagner as a player.
- MJL

I think your grossly underrating him. and although the stats agree with you, i still dont want to give up on a guy who may have potential somewhere in there and we got for basically nothing. the fact that hak plays umberger every night and not gagner, instantly takes the argument out that hakstol obv sees something about gagner's game he doesnt like. he cant see umbergers flaws so what makes us think he has a sense of gagners. because umbergers cap hit is more? bull

i would be more than happy to fully agree with you that he's grossly overrated, given that he actually gets a shot. we are 47 games in, hes played 20 games and has 5 points. prorated over a full season thats 21 ish points. thats after being shuffled all over the lineup, given zero power play time, with horrid linemates.

youre telling me you couldnt see him capable of maybe 30-40 points as a third line center, given decent 2nd unit pp time, with linemates who have a little offensive skill to them? if you can say no which im sure u will thats fine, but as someone who has played, watched, and worked in hockey, i can tell you chemistry is a huge thing for players (not that this isnt obvious, but it is true in this scenario), especially players who came into this league with such huge expectations and never living up to them. its a lot of pressure and i am all for giving him a solid chance, playing him every game till the end of the year and see what we have. if hes as bad as u think he is, then we let him walk. are we really winning the cup this year? does it hurt to play him and see what we have over guys like umberger(who is absolutely done) and laughton(who actually does have a future here it just doesnt seem it is right now)?

Let's paint a picture here. Let's think about Voracek's game, and what it looked like when he was in a scoring slump, compared to what Gagner's game looks like when he's not scoring. See the difference? I've seen enough of Gagner
We're talking about different kinds of player, in different roles. In Umberger's role, I'd rather have Umberger than Gagner.
- MJL

Amen to that!

Seriously dont understand why people want to keep giving Gagner playing time with the idea that he is some offensive force.

He has provided next to no offense for us, and thats really his only real form of contribution. At least RJ plays a solid two way game and is pretty strong on the boards.

I don't think the Manning/Medvedev decision is all that bad. Manning is actually playing legitimate #6 style hockey while Medvedev is horribly inconsistent: one day he looks like a legit top-4, the next day he looks like a middle tier AHLer.

However, I'm not opposed to replacing Umberger with Gagner, which is more of an indictment of Umberger than praise for Gagner. That said, I don't think it would change much, as you'd get slightly more offense for slightly worse defense. It likely won't make a major difference.
- jmatchett383

i think with more consistent playing Medvedev works out more and more kinks in his game. what we should be doing is giving hiom the time this year to iron out his problems so come next year he can be a solid contributor. guy has played his whole 32 years on a different continent, with a different style of hockey, on different ice. hes played in what, 30ish games in North America in his whole life? i dont understand why Hak doesnt give him the benefit of the doubt to allow him to work out his issues. unless we dont have any interest in keeping him next year, which i feel is a gross misuse of talent that we have under team control, especially the back end. the guy wont be playing the next 10 years, hes here for another 2/3, perfect timing for when our young guns on the blue line come up.

- sjk540

Clear your afternoon schedule

Clear your afternoon schedule
- YuenglingJagr

Yeah, being in the top 20 scorers in the entire league, over a stretch of 5 plus years makes a guy an elite player, by any rational person's standards.
- Jsaquella

You know what elite is to me? Not collecting a pile points over a number of seasons of your choosing. The best example I can give to my idea of elite. Tyler Seguin and Jamie Benn have been within the top 5 to 10 on the leaderboards every season since Seguin was traded there. Elite is completing for a title in points every season, which Giroux has done over the course of a number of seasons. Elite is an exclusive group. To me there are only 5 elite quarterbacks in the NFL.

Savvy??

Amen to that!

Seriously dont understand why people want to keep giving Gagner playing time with the idea that he is some offensive force.

He has provided next to no offense for us, and thats really his only real form of contribution. At least RJ plays a solid two way game and is pretty strong on the boards.
- jak521

wow, youd rather have umberger, and not only that you say amen? guy hasnt had a goal in a year. has played in 12 more games as gagner and has 1 more point. u guys seem to forget that we have been outscored by every team in the league minus the ducks. thats pathetic. imagine if we were middle of the pack in scoring, we would surely be in a playoff spot. im not saying that would single-handedly be gagner, but it would help a little. umberger is done. hes slow, he has no offensive anymore. he drags everyone down and even the advanced stats prove it. gagner can skate somewhat, hes a right handed stick which means on the 2nd unit pp he can kinda play the giroux role on the far half boards, and he may gain some confidence being placed as a center again instead of on the wing. u guys can say hes done nothing to show u anything all u want, but i dont believe hes had the chance. if he played every game so far and still had these numbers i wouldnt be saying anything. give the guy a chance, build some kind of sample size, then grade him.

Clear your afternoon schedule
- YuenglingJagr

?

You know what elite is to me? Not collecting a pile points over a number of seasons of your choosing. The best example I can give to my idea of elite. Tyler Seguin and Jamie Benn have been within the top 5 to 10 on the leaderboards every season since Seguin was traded there. Elite is completing for a title in points every season, which Giroux has done over the course of a number of seasons. Elite is an exclusive group. To me there are only 5 elite quarterbacks in the NHL.

Savvy??
- SuperSchennBros

Let's all just agree to disagree and move on

Re: the all star game
I would love to see the players treat it like the joke it is. Perhaps they can just step aside and let Scott score 10 goals as a big (frank) you to Bettman. I'm no fan of his, but no player deserves to be treated as disrespectfully as John Scott was.

You know what elite is to me? Not collecting a pile points over a number of seasons of your choosing. The best example I can give to my idea of elite. Tyler Seguin and Jamie Benn have been within the top 5 to 10 on the leaderboards every season since Seguin was traded there. Elite is completing for a title in points every season, which Giroux has done over the course of a number of seasons. Elite is an exclusive group. To me there are only 5 elite quarterbacks in the NHL.

Savvy??
- SuperSchennBros

Who is the best kicker in the NHL? Serious question...what makes you pick Hossa and Jagr as elite now? You use that they have posted lots of points throughout their career, but are they really one of the best each year? I think that is where the flaw is. Players have good years, bad years...whatever. If a player ranks at or very near the top statistically for a couple years, isnt he currently an elite player?

I have no problem with you saying Jake isnt elite, but when you say that and then include the guys you did I am just so confused

Let's all just agree to disagree and move on
- PhillySportsGuy

This post was needed about 25 pages ago!

Re: the all star game
I would love to see the players treat it like the joke it is. Perhaps they can just step aside and let Scott score 10 goals as a big (frank) you to Bettman. I'm no fan of his, but no player deserves to be treated as disrespectfully as John Scott was.
- BiggE

Agreed. I love that they used his kids and he just threw down and dug in. Do not (frank) with someones kids

I am sure he will be a fan favorite during the game and some of the guys are probably rooting for him too

This post was needed about 25 pages ago!
- BiggE

Then we would have to do work

Let's all just agree to disagree and move on
- PhillySportsGuy

No problem. The fact of the matter is, it's a perception. For me though, if you look for reasons to make every player you think is special and call them elite, the word loses meaning and becoming elite becomes less special.

Agreed. I love that they used his kids and he just threw down and dug in. Do not (frank) with someones kids

I am sure he will be a fan favorite during the game and some of the guys are probably rooting for him too
- YuenglingJagr

I'd like to see Bettman suit up for one shift against John Scott.

Then we would have to do work
- YuenglingJagr

Good point

No problem. The fact of the matter is, it's a perception. For me though, if you look for reasons to make every player you think is special and call them elite, the word loses meaning and becoming elite becomes less special.
- SuperSchennBros

But he is statistically proven to be elite. As in the very top at his position.

That is a statistical fact.

FYI: new blob

Who is the best kicker in the NHL? Serious question...what makes you pick Hossa and Jagr as elite now? You use that they have posted lots of points throughout their career, but are they really one of the best each year? I think that is where the flaw is. Players have good years, bad years...whatever. If a player ranks at or very near the top statistically for a couple years, isnt he currently an elite player?

I have no problem with you saying Jake isnt elite, but when you say that and then include the guys you did I am just so confused
- YuenglingJagr

Hossa isn't elite anymore. I jumped the gun, his name entered my mind off the top of my head. However, you have to take into account all abilities and what a player has achieved in terms points, goals, can they dominate a game singlehandedly and what they have won.

Let's all just agree to disagree and move on
- PhillySportsGuy

This. Nobody is going to change anyone else's mind and they're boring the frank out of me. lol

Gagner has put up one assist in his last 15 games.
- MJL

Every player has cold streaks. You could fixate on a small sample, or you could look at his career and see that he's been producing at a league-average 2nd-line level for a long time now.

Your way of looking at Gagner is the reverse of those people who are crying Vinny-mismanagement over a few early goals scored w/ the Kings.

Last 3-seasons > handful of games.

Re: the all star game
I would love to see the players treat it like the joke it is. Perhaps they can just step aside and let Scott score 10 goals as a big (frank) you to Bettman. I'm no fan of his, but no player deserves to be treated as disrespectfully as John Scott was.
- BiggE

I agree. The fans disrespected Scott. The NHL further disrespected Scott. The whole thing is just one more embarrassment for the NHL.

No problem. The fact of the matter is, it's a perception. For me though, if you look for reasons to make every player you think is special and call them elite, the word loses meaning and becoming elite becomes less special.
- SuperSchennBros

Agreed.

Can we talk about the word "super" now?