There are certain things you just don't joke about. Trading Coots is one.
- Mononoke

Plus we all know he's faking the injury to avoid a trade

How did we do earlier in the season without Couturier?
- SuperSchennBros

Turrible

How did we do earlier in the season without Couturier?
- SuperSchennBros

Flyers are 1-5-1 without Couturier this season

Plus we all know he's faking the injury to avoid a trade
- funmaster18

Toronto must be looking to trade JVR.

Depending on the cost, if Hextall sees an opportunity to improve the team now without giving up the future, I think he would make it.

We knew since day 1 that this team has holes, and that the season would be full of ups and downs. The Pens game was the latter. Flyers have played some strong games lately against good team, such as the last time they played the Isles, even though they had some injuries. Hextall is going to improve this team, but it is going to take some time. Umberger is not part of the future, which is why I won't get worked up over him day after day. We know why that trade was made. I'm sure Hextall was expecting to get more out of Umberger, but that's not happening. When this team is ready, Umberger will be a distant memory.
- MJL

amen

Didn't the Pittsburgh game show that the loss of Couturier is about far more than goals?
- MJL

It did, but are you implying that Umberger is a defensive stalwart like Couturier? If RJ brought something, anything to the table remotely clos to the other 11 forwards on game day, I wouldn't be saying anything

they probably win that game with him in the lineup. at the very least, it probably goes into extra time.
- stayinthefnnet

long time no visit, how have you been?

Awful deal from the start. There were signs of many steps lost before the trade was even made.
- SuperSchennBros

He had a bad season in Columbus before the trade, arrived injured and was largely ineffective or just flat out bad last season. Started off good this season, got dinged again, has been pretty much worthless since the end of October.

He's not playing that well in any facet of the game. He's a plus player-at plus 1-but that's likely more due to usage (he's among the most sheltered players on the team) and limited ice time than anything he's done himself.

I'd play weal A: just for the simple reason you have NOTHING to lose B: why not let the kid cut his teeth on some weal minutes and just maybe he either improves his trade value or you find he's a diamond in the rough.... I'm just tired of watching old slugs like umberger. Been saying this for a while; if we're gonna be mediocre let's do so because young players are learning on the job, not because some good old boy needs to get his ego stroked.

It did, but are you implying that Umberger is a defensive stalwart like Couturier? If RJ brought something, anything to the table remotely clos to the other 11 forwards on game day, I wouldn't be saying anything
- Pelle31Forever

How am I implying anything about Umberger in a post about Couturier?

is this 3rd liner a wing or a center? or it doesn't matter? i think they need at least 3 new players in the bottom 6. where they'll get them, and how, i don't know.

they're not generating any scoring from the bottom group. they're at the bottom of league in scoring for a reason. given umberger's performance, i see no harm in using weal for a few games to see what's there. or scratch white or vdv or bellemare or laughton...what difference does it really make?
- hammarby31

Just looked at the even strength goal ratios around the league. Flyers are 0.91 (23rd). The Caps are 1.49, which is absurd. By far the best in the league. They also have the best power play and good PK. They've gotta be the Cup favorites right now.

Couturier out for more than a couple games and you can kiss the playoffs goodbye.

He had a bad season in Columbus before the trade, arrived injured and was largely ineffective or just flat out bad last season. Started off good this season, got dinged again, has been pretty much worthless since the end of October.

He's not playing that well in any facet of the game. He's a plus player-at plus 1-but that's likely more due to usage (he's among the most sheltered players on the team) and limited ice time than anything he's done himself.
- Jsaquella

you think he is playing hurt again, like last year?

you think he is playing hurt again, like last year?
- Marc D

I don't think he's hurt, I just think he has completely lost his offensive game.

You'd think that after being a head coach in the NCAA for over a deacade, who was very successful, enough to be hired as an NHL coach, that Hakstol would understand a simple concept that the fans know!

I think coaches have more information that the fans do, in terms of the players. If he's not playing Weal, I'm sure he has his reasons. I'd like to see Weal in the lineup also, because as a fan, I'm operating from the perspective of why not. Hakstol is not, and is operating on far more information than what a fan has.
- MJL

That is absolutely ridiculous -- Craig Berube played Umberger last season, and he looked terrible, and he knew that he was injured. So what does that tell you? Fans knew that Umberger was ineffective, the coach still played him. It doesn't mean that was the right decision then.

Sometimes, it's just a bad call. A blind spot. Sometimes coaches just play guys, or won't play guys. Ken Hitchcock simply would not play Patrick Sharp. Fans at the time wanted Sharp to play more.

Who was right on that one?

I think if he could pick up a 3rd liner with size who can skate, he should consider it strongly. More likely see something like this over the summer. I know they shouldn't probably be in the buying vets at the TDL but they really are a playoff bubble team and I could see them doing this, especially if they could pull it off for a reasonable price.

I kind of see Bill's point in that there isn't any huge upgrades coming from within their system this year. Cousins may be a borderline upgrade over White/VDV in some aspects but he would get caved in going against Malkin too. Who know with Weal, except that it makes them smaller and faster. Leier I think needs more time.
- Marc D

Ideally, they could add a guy with size who can be a good two way player and make the third line an actual third line as opposed to having two 4th lines.

My issue is, they have a kid like Weal just sitting there. They can't send him down without risking waivers and haven't played him, despite the struggles of the guys they are dressing.

Umberger's just the most egregious case of it. I fully agree that when this team turns the corner and is a real contender, Umberger will be a distant memory. The trouble is, can Weal possibly be a part of the future? How do they know without giving him a shot? What's to lose? The difference is instead of a $4.5mm player playing 7 minutes and having zero impact, he's not playing 7 minutes and you're getting a look at a kid who was MVP of the AHL playoff last season.

Hell, if Weal comes in and plays well, but doesn't seem like a fit for the future, maybe he catches another team's eye and can be flipped for a third rounder, like Tye McGinn or Zac Rinaldo were. Think another team sees Umberger and thinks he's worth trading for?

Regardless of the coach seeing players practice or "knowing" more, the bottom line is you have a guy in Umberger that is bringing you absolutely nothing.

you think he is playing hurt again, like last year?
- Marc D

Possibly. If he is, it's simply more reason why he should be sitting. If he's not hurt, then he's completely washed up and no longer a NHL level player.

Either way, he's bringing nothing to the table. There are young players that they are facing decisions on (in terms of pending RFAs). I'd want more data than AHL play & practice viewings.

How am I implying anything about Umberger in a post about Couturier?
- MJL

I was talking about Umberger in my original post. I think you and I are on different subjects and it's gettinga little confusing.

I agree with your original post of losing Couturier is more than about goal scoring. I originally meant to say that replacing RJ's 0 goals this season shouldn't be hard.

That is absolutely ridiculous -- Craig Berube played Umberger last season, and he looked terrible, and he knew that he was injured. So what does that tell you? Fans knew that Umberger was ineffective, the coach still played him. It doesn't mean that was the right decision then.

Sometimes, it's just a bad call. A blind spot. Sometimes coaches just play guys, or won't play guys. Ken Hitchcock simply would not play Patrick Sharp. Fans at the time wanted Sharp to play more.

Who was right on that one?
- AllInForFlyers

I didn't comment on whether it was the right decision or not. Coaches are not infallible. What I commented was on this idea of what a coach has to understand. I find that line of thinking ridiculous. I think if we could sit down and ask him why he's making the decisions he is making, and what it's based on, truthfully, we'd find that there are legitimate reasons for why a coach or GM makes the decision they make. They may not be right in the long run, and we may not agree with it, but an NHL coach doesn't make decisions based on why not, let's give it a try. He has some reason why he has not played Weal to this point. Right or wrong.

I was talking about Umberger in my original post. I think you and I are on different subjects and it's gettinga little confusing.

I agree with your original post of losing Couturier is more than about goal scoring. I originally meant to say that replacing RJ's 0 goals this season shouldn't be hard.
- Pelle31Forever

I was replying to this post.

"I've never been one who fully understood analytics or fancy stats, but even I know it shouldn't be hard to replace 9 goals after 50 some odd games. "

Ideally, they could add a guy with size who can be a good two way player and make the third line an actual third line as opposed to having two 4th lines.

My issue is, they have a kid like Weal just sitting there. They can't send him down without risking waivers and haven't played him, despite the struggles of the guys they are dressing.

Umberger's just the most egregious case of it. I fully agree that when this team turns the corner and is a real contender, Umberger will be a distant memory. The trouble is, can Weal possibly be a part of the future? How do they know without giving him a shot? What's to lose? The difference is instead of a $4.5mm player playing 7 minutes and having zero impact, he's not playing 7 minutes and you're getting a look at a kid who was MVP of the AHL playoff last season.

Hell, if Weal comes in and plays well, but doesn't seem like a fit for the future, maybe he catches another team's eye and can be flipped for a third rounder, like Tye McGinn or Zac Rinaldo were. Think another team sees Umberger and thinks he's worth trading for?

Regardless of the coach seeing players practice or "knowing" more, the bottom line is you have a guy in Umberger that is bringing you absolutely nothing.
- Jsaquella

It is amazing to me how anyone can argue this point. Coaches and organizations are notoriously stubborn. It happens all the time, where coaches fall in love with guys or dislike guys and play them or don't play them based on whim, not reality.

John Tortorella decided Ryan Johansen wasn't his kind of player. Almost from Day One. Should people not question that one, either, just because Tortorella "saw him in practice?"

It is amazing to me how anyone can argue this point. Coaches and organizations are notoriously stubborn. It happens all the time, where coaches fall in love with guys or dislike guys and play them or don't play them based on whim, not reality.

John Tortorella decided Ryan Johansen wasn't his kind of player. Almost from Day One. Should people not question that one, either, just because Tortorella "saw him in practice?"
- AllInForFlyers

Columbus traded Johansen, so obviously there is something there more than Tortorella not liking him. Unless you think Columbus management is going to let Tortorella dictate their future.

Ideally, they could add a guy with size who can be a good two way player and make the third line an actual third line as opposed to having two 4th lines.

My issue is, they have a kid like Weal just sitting there. They can't send him down without risking waivers and haven't played him, despite the struggles of the guys they are dressing.

Umberger's just the most egregious case of it. I fully agree that when this team turns the corner and is a real contender, Umberger will be a distant memory. The trouble is, can Weal possibly be a part of the future? How do they know without giving him a shot? What's to lose? The difference is instead of a $4.5mm player playing 7 minutes and having zero impact, he's not playing 7 minutes and you're getting a look at a kid who was MVP of the AHL playoff last season.

Hell, if Weal comes in and plays well, but doesn't seem like a fit for the future, maybe he catches another team's eye and can be flipped for a third rounder, like Tye McGinn or Zac Rinaldo were. Think another team sees Umberger and thinks he's worth trading for?

Regardless of the coach seeing players practice or "knowing" more, the bottom line is you have a guy in Umberger that is bringing you absolutely nothing.
- Jsaquella

I'm all for seeing what Weal can do.

I think this is a good season to do this, try out some of the older "kids" and see. Like the Manning experiment. They gave him significant playing time and they know what he can do.

I figured Weal would get a shot when a top six player went down, but they recalled Sam Gagner instead. So maybe he could give Weal a shot with Laughton and Read. If that line is too "small", then switch Read and Raffl to give more size and grit with Raffl on the line with Read and Weal.

I'm all for seeing what Weal can do.

I think this is a good season to do this, try out some of the older "kids" and see. Like the Manning experiment. They gave him significant playing time and they know what he can do.

I figured Weal would get a shot when a top six player went down, but they recalled Sam Gagner instead. So maybe he could give Weal a shot with Laughton and Read. If that line is too "small", then switch Read and Raffl to give more size and grit with Raffl on the line with Read and Weal.
- Marc D

I want to see Weal play also. From a fan perspective, we want to see him play, and if he can make a difference or not. That's normal. I'm not prepared or not to state what a coach, who has a lot more information, not to mention knowledge and experience, doesn't understand.

It is amazing to me how anyone can argue this point. Coaches and organizations are notoriously stubborn. It happens all the time, where coaches fall in love with guys or dislike guys and play them or don't play them based on whim, not reality.

John Tortorella decided Ryan Johansen wasn't his kind of player. Almost from Day One. Should people not question that one, either, just because Tortorella "saw him in practice?"
- AllInForFlyers

I'm sure Hakstol has reasons for continuing to play Umberger. I'm sure he could sit here and give a rationale for the decision he's made and tell us exactly why he's decided to continue to run Umberger out there.

We've covered most of the obvious ones in discussion here: Veteran presence & leadership. Few mistakes that are the result of trying to do too much or taking unnecessary risks. Having decent size. Being adequate defensively.

The trouble is, none of those reasons are especially valid. Sure he's a veteran, but his level of play is poor. That mitigates the impact his veteran presence can have. Lecavalier wasn't just a veteran, he's a former team captain, Stanley Cup winner and Hart Trophy winner. The trouble is, his play had dropped to the point where he was a liability. Umberger has reached that point. There's no metric for him that shows a good level of play. Even the not being a defensive liability part of the equation has been invalidated the last two games, where he was repeatedly caught flat footed and blowing coverages.