I'm not sure you lost out too much on Johns. I watched him play at ND. Yeah he was probably our best defenseman, but he was as undisciplined as they come and always tried to do too much with the puck despite not having great hands. He could bust playing against NHL competition. It does suck that that's all you got for Sharp though
- Victoro311

I'm starting to think that way too. He's been remarkably injury prone for a big guy and hasn't gotten a sniff yet for a somewhat suspect Dallas D, though they seem to have a bit of a logjam of young D prospects that wouldn't clear waivers.

Nill made a big deal about him when the trade went down, but maybe that was CYA spin in case Sharp's play in Dallas proved to be age related decline instead of the prolonged slump it now appears to have been, though playing with Benn and Seguin hasn't hurt lol.

No it is suspect, but that has also probably brought down his price and if you can get a guy with Drouin's potential for cheap you take the gamble.
- Victoro311

At his age and pedigree, I'd expect him to be a nearly PPG player at that level regardless of how bad his team is. I know that doesn't translate perfectly, but I'm not so sure I would all in on him without having proven he can produce in the AHL.

I'm starting to think that way too. He's been remarkably injury prone for a big guy and hasn't gotten a sniff yet for a somewhat suspect Dallas D, though they seem to have a bit of a logjam of young D prospects that wouldn't clear waivers.

Nill made a big deal about him when the trade went down, but maybe that was CYA spin in case Sharp's play in Dallas proved to be age related decline instead of the prolonged slump it now appears to have been, though playing with Benn and Seguin hasn't hurt lol.
- Davewn

No I can see someone being completely and genuinely enamored with Johns. He ha a prototypical build that you'd want from a defensive defenseman and plays with a mean streak. Thing is that he has really bad hockey sense which is easy to overlook if you're not too familiar with a prospect or if you think he can pick up on that type of stuff as he matures. He's very undisciplined and takes a (frank) ton of unessisary penalties and is very turn over prone because he was an above average puck mover in the NCAA, but he just doesn't have the talent in his hands to play that way against better competition.

You're just looking at end game results. This team has battled from multiple deficits to make it to OT and get a point. Yes it sucks to not get both points but the battle is back. Too me that's a result of hard work and not giving up or giving in. This simply wasn't happening with Johnson. The second last Canes game was a cosmic bounce away from being 2 points too.
- MattStrat

They were heading the wrong way fast under Johnston. Then MAF went down (the one player they absolutely couldn't afford to lose) as soon as Sully was hired. Frankly, if not for MAF Johnston get's canned sooner.

I hate to use the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" excuse, but the Pens were (to varying degree's) the better team in at least a few of those losses. 2 Cains games, 2nd Kings game, 1st Chicago game and the Lightning game were all a bounce away from going in our direction. If we get half of those points we're tied with the Isle for 2nd in the division.

Of course the only thing that matters are wins and losses, but I think we're heading in the right direction. The most positive development is the East is mediocre at best.

At his age and pedigree, I'd expect him to be a nearly PPG player at that level regardless of how bad his team is. I know that doesn't translate perfectly, but I'm not so sure I would all in on him without having proven he can produce in the AHL.
- jfkst1

His lack of production in the AHL could be due to an attitude problem too. As in not giving 100% because he doesnt want to and/or feel he should be there.

They were heading the wrong way fast under Johnston. Then MAF went down (the one player they absolutely couldn't afford to lose) as soon as Sully was hired. Frankly, if not for MAF Johnston get's canned sooner.

I hate to use the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" excuse, but the Pens were (to varying degree's) the better team in at least a few of those losses. 2 Cains games, 2nd Kings game, 1st Chicago game and the Lightning game were all a bounce away from going in our direction. If we get half of those points we're tied with the Isle for 2nd in the division.

Of course the only thing that matters are wins and losses, but I think we're heading in the right direction. The most positive development is the East is mediocre at best.
- madmike71

If Pens didn't get top 10 goaltending this year the season would already be over and Johnston would have been fired a month earlier.

There's only two games where I thought the Pens were clearly outplayed under Sullivan (CHI and BOS games). 50+% of the games under Johnston this season the Pens were clearly outplayed IMO.

If Pens made one decent win streak and went back to being a .500 team, they could easily make the playoffs.

I'd say the Pens won the scuderi trade. Couldn't the hawks have shipped daley out without taking on scuds? Traded Daley for a 7th?

My gut feeling is the Pens can't be a champ without moving Fleury and hoping Murray replicates his production. Use the cap/assets in a fleury trade to put all the pieces together around our core.

I'd say the Pens won the scuderi trade. Couldn't the hawks have shipped daley out without taking on scuds? Traded Daley for a 7th?

My gut feeling is the Pens can't be a champ without moving Fleury and hoping Murray replicates his production. Use the cap/assets in a fleury trade to put all the pieces together around our core.
- sditulli

I love Daley's skating and he has a decent shot. Hasn't really been a defensive liability as I feared (yet) either. Not sure why the Hawks hated on him so much. The difference between him and Scuderi is almost night and day.

You're just looking at end game results. This team has battled from multiple deficits to make it to OT and get a point. Yes it sucks to not get both points but the battle is back. Too me that's a result of hard work and not giving up or giving in. This simply wasn't happening with Johnson. The second last Canes game was a cosmic bounce away from being 2 points too.
- MattStrat

Yes because the end game results are what counts, everything else is subject to personal opinion and bais, you view it as a sign of hard work that they've come back from multiple deficits to get a point in OT but I look at it and ask why they needed to come back from a deficit in the first place? Coming out flat and falling behind mediocre teams before battling back to push the game to OT is my a sign of only working hard for portions of the game than it is a sign of overall hard work in my eyes. When the season ends the end game results will be all that determines the fate of the team, not how they got to those end game results.

I'd say the Pens won the scuderi trade. Couldn't the hawks have shipped daley out without taking on scuds? Traded Daley for a 7th?

My gut feeling is the Pens can't be a champ without moving Fleury and hoping Murray replicates his production. Use the cap/assets in a fleury trade to put all the pieces together around our core.
- sditulli

No on the MAF thing. Very curious who you think Pittsburgh could get back for him.

I'd say the Pens won the scuderi trade. Couldn't the hawks have shipped daley out without taking on scuds? Traded Daley for a 7th?

My gut feeling is the Pens can't be a champ without moving Fleury and hoping Murray replicates his production. Use the cap/assets in a fleury trade to put all the pieces together around our core.
- sditulli

You may be right, but that is a huge risk and I'm not sure you get the kind of return that makes it worth it. Murray may pan out, he might not. For every young goalie that turns into Pecca Rinne, you have a whole host that turn into Jonathan Bernier, or Al Montoya. And most importantly, I don't trust Rutherford enough to make a move with one of the core pieces of this team (87/71/58/29).

They were heading the wrong way fast under Johnston. Then MAF went down (the one player they absolutely couldn't afford to lose) as soon as Sully was hired. Frankly, if not for MAF Johnston get's canned sooner.

I hate to use the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" excuse, but the Pens were (to varying degree's) the better team in at least a few of those losses. 2 Cains games, 2nd Kings game, 1st Chicago game and the Lightning game were all a bounce away from going in our direction. If we get half of those points we're tied with the Isle for 2nd in the division.

Of course the only thing that matters are wins and losses, but I think we're heading in the right direction. The most positive development is the East is mediocre at best.
- madmike71

You basically took the time to expand on my point. I obviously agree with all that. I really believe they are trending upward. Those OT/Shoot out points wouldn't even of happened if Johnston was still here. Pretty confident of that.

No on the MAF thing. Very curious who you think Pittsburgh could get back for him.
- Oneonta Penguin

They might not have a choice but to take that huge risk. If the cap stays stagnant, they aren't going to be able to compete anyway.

Say STL goaltending flounders in the playoffs again, I could see MAF for Shattenkirk straight up.

You may be right, but that is a huge risk and I'm not sure you get the kind of return that makes it worth it. Murray may pan out, he might not. For every young goalie that turns into Pecca Rinne, you have a whole host that turn into Jonathan Bernier, or Al Montoya. And most importantly, I don't trust Rutherford enough to make a move with one of the core pieces of this team (87/71/58/29).
- Emperor Filonius

Who would even need a goalie with pieces we'd want back? EDM comes to mind but they just extended Talbot. Yak would have to be part of the package coming back.

They might not have a choice but to take that huge risk. If the cap stays stagnant, they aren't going to be able to compete anyway.

Say STL goaltending flounders in the playoffs again, I could see MAF for Shattenkirk straight up.
- jfkst1

Allen wasn't the issue last year. The only player to show up for the playoffs is Tarasekno, which is partially why oshie was dealt. Blues would move Shatty for a top prospect but are not wanting long term contract money back.

Allen wasn't the issue last year. The only player to show up for the playoffs is Tarasekno, which is partially why oshie was dealt. Blues would move Shatty for a top prospect but are not wanting long term contract money back.
- Gerk

Its true that Oshie is known to disappear in the playoffs...

EDIT: 9 points in 30 playoff games

Allen wasn't the issue last year. The only player to show up for the playoffs is Tarasekno, which is partially why oshie was dealt. Blues would move Shatty for a top prospect but are not wanting long term contract money back.
- Gerk

I only watched one of their games so you should know better than me, but Allen had a .904 save% last year in the playoffs. That makes it hard to win when the league average save% is .918.

Allen wasn't the issue last year. The only player to show up for the playoffs is Tarasekno, which is partially why oshie was dealt. Blues would move Shatty for a top prospect but are not wanting long term contract money back.
- Gerk

Untrue. Shattenkirk showed up in the playoffs last year as well. Another reason not to move him.

I see adding a D-man as a bad move at this point. Looking at it long term. Unless Cole is traded there isnt much room in the D next year if Pouliot is half as good as people think he is.
Maatta-Letang
Dumo-Daley
Pouliot-Cole
Thats likely the D for next season. Really it doesn't look bad. So why trade assets to improve what isn't that bad?

They were heading the wrong way fast under Johnston. Then MAF went down (the one player they absolutely couldn't afford to lose) as soon as Sully was hired. Frankly, if not for MAF Johnston get's canned sooner.

I hate to use the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" excuse, but the Pens were (to varying degree's) the better team in at least a few of those losses. 2 Cains games, 2nd Kings game, 1st Chicago game and the Lightning game were all a bounce away from going in our direction. If we get half of those points we're tied with the Isle for 2nd in the division.

Of course the only thing that matters are wins and losses, but I think we're heading in the right direction. The most positive development is the East is mediocre at best.
- madmike71

I'm really not disagreeing with any of that, my point was simply that at some point the shoulda, coulda, woulda excuse just isn't enough and they have to jump from heading in the right direction to being there and honestly other than pointing to some positives with the hope that they become more common, the end results haven't really shown that they are any closer to being there then they were a month or 2 months ago.

Untrue. Shattenkirk showed up in the playoffs last year as well. Another reason not to move him.
- Antilles

I was speaking mostly of forwards, Petro had a decent series.

No idea what we can get for MAF right now, but he has a reasonable costs and is playing well. Maybe a top 10 pick like Schneider?

But my main reason for trading MAF is simply cap constraints. I don't see how we put together a full team without replacing a $6 million a year player with a 800k a year a player.

That cap room would let us add a Lucic this offseason or find a way to add a legit 3D.

Allen wasn't the issue last year. The only player to show up for the playoffs is Tarasekno, which is partially why oshie was dealt. Blues would move Shatty for a top prospect but are not wanting long term contract money back.
- Gerk

78 gp 7-12-19.

No idea what we can get for MAF right now, but he has a reasonable costs and is playing well. Maybe a top 10 pick like Schneider?

But my main reason for trading MAF is simply cap constraints. I don't see how we put together a full team without replacing a $6 million a year player with a 800k a year a player.

That cap room would let us add a Lucic this offseason or find a way to add a legit 3D.
- sditulli

But you're making the huge assumption that Murray will be good enough right away. MAF is good enough right now and will be for a while so he is the obvious choice. Goaltender isnt something you risk to win the cup. You need to take the safe bet and thats MAF any day over an unproven prospect. Now if you're talk 2-4 years down the road and Murray develops how we think he will it ll be very different. But by then he will be making more than 800k.

I'd say the Pens won the scuderi trade. Couldn't the hawks have shipped daley out without taking on scuds? Traded Daley for a 7th?

My gut feeling is the Pens can't be a champ without moving Fleury and hoping Murray replicates his production. Use the cap/assets in a fleury trade to put all the pieces together around our core.
- sditulli

I'm really trying to comprehend the rational behind the "can't be a champ without moving Fleury" mindset unless it's simply just an attempt to hold on to the resentment from Fleury's past struggles that seem to be far behind him. The cap/assets arguement just doesn't hold water when teams like Chiacgo & LA have had no problems putting pieces around their cores while still paying the franchise goalie more than Fleury makes.