Here's what bothers me about this conversation and why it's so unbearable to even come to these type of sites anymore, fans(and even the bloggers) spend hours bashing, complaining about and blaming things they don't understand for what is happening on the ice. System, system, system is all you hear and it's becoming more evident by the article that most don't truly understand what systems are in hockey yet they blame them non stop. Systems are about positioning on the ice and players responsibilities at each individual position, examples of this are the 2-1-2 forecheck, the box +1 sag, the umbrella etc, things like stretch passes, blocking shots, pinching are philosophies not systems. Going back to game 1 of last season all the way through the last game the Pens have been running basically the same systems, what has changed is the philosophies they're employing within the system and those philosophies were adjusted around the midpoint of last season to compensate for the injuries. People like RW pointing out a heavier emphasis on blocking shots as a change to the "system" are doing nothing more than exhibiting an ignorance to the game, I guess that makes sense though because that won't show up in the stat line or on a graph and apparently that's all you need anymore to know hockey.
- jaydogg1974

So you know it all?

No, and we don't either. We just think with this team and talent they should be playing better and they are not. Plain and simple, they suck and we want something to change. System? Energy? Focus? Surround the puck more and be responsible with the puck?

Probably all of the above. And I for one suspect the players do not care for the style of play or the style of coaching. I know I don't. It's boring as sitting in the doctors office for three hours with bad, old magazines and your phone is dead.

It's either that or get a coach who lets the forwards get out there and go free-for-all and try to make the Penguins "fun to watch" before being destroyed in the Eastern quarters.
- Johnny Wrath

If nothing substantial changes, I'm not sure the Pens will be in the playoffs at all. Which I suppose is better than getting destroyed in the quarterfinals.

I agree with you, hte problem is if the Pens get a hardass and if the players dont respond well, its back to square 1. When you have those levels of talent, can you really coach them at that level? Is Crosby willing to take a Yzerman role?

I just realized the 87/71 era has now lasted longer than the 66/68 era.
- sammy87

The fans of the Penguins really overrate what talent yields. For so many years its been "Pens have Sid and Geno, they can win the cup any year. It's the NHL's fault and puck luck that have stopped the Penguins from being successful."

Just look at some comparables to see how incredibly naive and pompous a Penguin fan may sound if overheard while reassuring themselves of the 87+71=Stanley rhetoric:

Canes have Eric and Jordan. If Cam doesn't lose it for us, we can totally win the Cup.

Man, if only the Canucks could get another winger for Daniel and Henrik, we would have won the Cup for sure.

Stupid NHL keeps letting teams with no talent put their hands all over Thornton and Marleau. They keep losing to the Kings because it's the NHLs fault. Jumbo Joe and Patty are getting short changed. They would have won by now if that wasn't true.

Duchene and MacKinnon are sick! They're fast and they can score. Varlamov is a Vezina candidate. They're going to mow down the Western Conference for sure.

This is what it looks and sounds like. It's incredibly gullible.

The fans of the Penguins really overrate what talent yields. For so many years its been "Pens have Sid and Geno, they can win the cup any year. It's the NHL's fault and puck luck that have stopped the Penguins from being successful."

Just look at some comparables to see how incredibly naive and pompous a Penguin fan may sound if overheard while reassuring themselves of the 87+71=Stanley rhetoric:

Canes have Eric and Jordan. If Cam doesn't lose it for us, we can totally win the Cup.

Man, if only the Canucks could get another winger for Daniel and Henrik, we would have won the Cup for sure.

Stupid NHL keeps letting teams with no talent put their hands all over Thornton and Marleau. They keep losing to the Kings because it's the NHLs fault. Jumbo Joe and Patty are getting short changed. They would have won by now if that wasn't true.

Duchene and MacKinnon are sick! They're fast and they can score. Varlamov is a Vezina candidate. They're going to mow down the Western Conference for sure.

This is what it looks and sounds like. It's incredibly gullible.
- Johnny Wrath

Yep talent does yield results. That sure explains the Blackhawks. Toews and Kane are untalented and thats why the blackhawks are so successful.


Guess the biggest difference between the hawks and pens. Hint its the coaching. The hawks respect their coach because hes worth a poop. It used to be depth but now the pens are great at depth. So rant all you want but the coach is currently the biggest issue for the pens.

The fans of the Penguins really overrate what talent yields. For so many years its been "Pens have Sid and Geno, they can win the cup any year. It's the NHL's fault and puck luck that have stopped the Penguins from being successful."

Just look at some comparables to see how incredibly naive and pompous a Penguin fan may sound if overheard while reassuring themselves of the 87+71=Stanley rhetoric:

Canes have Eric and Jordan. If Cam doesn't lose it for us, we can totally win the Cup.

Man, if only the Canucks could get another winger for Daniel and Henrik, we would have won the Cup for sure.

Stupid NHL keeps letting teams with no talent put their hands all over Thornton and Marleau. They keep losing to the Kings because it's the NHLs fault. Jumbo Joe and Patty are getting short changed. They would have won by now if that wasn't true.

Duchene and MacKinnon are sick! They're fast and they can score. Varlamov is a Vezina candidate. They're going to mow down the Western Conference for sure.

This is what it looks and sounds like. It's incredibly gullible.
- Johnny Wrath

I get what you're doing here but you're missing the mark in favor of trying to make a pretty/witty argument.

Canes: Jordan Staal isn't a super star. Saying the Staal brother should be able to will their team to a cup isn't the same as saying Crosby and Malkin should be able to. Even then, most inteligent fans don't claim that the two headed monster should be able to win a cup on their own. Why else have we been calling for wings for Crosby or capable depth for years? Which brings me to the rest...

Canucks: Sedin 1 is Sedin 2's wing so the situation isn't the same. a Canuck fan arguing that the third piece of the Sedin line is the final piece of the puzzle is much stupider than a Pens fan arguing that wingers not named Dupuis and Kunitz for Crosby is the last piece of the puzzle, but both are missing the bigger issue. It's depth beyond the Sedins that Canuck fans want, which is a valid gripe and one Pens fans share.

The league: the league affects all and inteligent people know that. When a penguins fan criticizes clutch and grab, they are criticizing the state of the league, not using it as an excuse for Crosby's underperformance.

Aves: this is the one you got right. When Pens fans say that Crosby and Malkin are world class and Flowe is an elite goalie so they should be able to win the cup regardless, they are being morons. That train of thought is what lead to years wasted giving out contracts to "gritty" veteran leaders that didn't contribute. That phylospphy has finally changed, but now we have a coaching issue that is making us waste even another season. It's incrediblely frustrating. When the FO finally gets it right, the coaching of the actual team on the ice (frank)s everything up.

The fans of the Penguins really overrate what talent yields. For so many years its been "Pens have Sid and Geno, they can win the cup any year. It's the NHL's fault and puck luck that have stopped the Penguins from being successful."

Just look at some comparables to see how incredibly naive and pompous a Penguin fan may sound if overheard while reassuring themselves of the 87+71=Stanley rhetoric:

Canes have Eric and Jordan. If Cam doesn't lose it for us, we can totally win the Cup.

Man, if only the Canucks could get another winger for Daniel and Henrik, we would have won the Cup for sure.

Stupid NHL keeps letting teams with no talent put their hands all over Thornton and Marleau. They keep losing to the Kings because it's the NHLs fault. Jumbo Joe and Patty are getting short changed. They would have won by now if that wasn't true.

Duchene and MacKinnon are sick! They're fast and they can score. Varlamov is a Vezina candidate. They're going to mow down the Western Conference for sure.

This is what it looks and sounds like. It's incredibly gullible.
- Johnny Wrath

That's because SC winners have top end talent AND depth the Pens have always had top end talent and no depth. Until this season when our coach decided to neuter the top end talent. So now they have zero chance.

The fans of the Penguins really overrate what talent yields. For so many years its been "Pens have Sid and Geno, they can win the cup any year. It's the NHL's fault and puck luck that have stopped the Penguins from being successful."

Just look at some comparables to see how incredibly naive and pompous a Penguin fan may sound if overheard while reassuring themselves of the 87+71=Stanley rhetoric:

Canes have Eric and Jordan. If Cam doesn't lose it for us, we can totally win the Cup.

Man, if only the Canucks could get another winger for Daniel and Henrik, we would have won the Cup for sure.

Stupid NHL keeps letting teams with no talent put their hands all over Thornton and Marleau. They keep losing to the Kings because it's the NHLs fault. Jumbo Joe and Patty are getting short changed. They would have won by now if that wasn't true.

Duchene and MacKinnon are sick! They're fast and they can score. Varlamov is a Vezina candidate. They're going to mow down the Western Conference for sure.

This is what it looks and sounds like. It's incredibly gullible.
- Johnny Wrath

You missed the Stars. This year as they did last year will have 2 of the leagues top scorers. We'll see how they go - so far so good (I personally don't think they can win it but are going pretty good 82 game season).

The points you forgot is we also have a #1 D in Tanger & a top pick goalie in Flower? So the ingredients are more than just 2 players as you have said above. Not sure those other teams have had big impact injuries to their stars either?

To Pittsburgh: Andrew Ladd and Mark Stuart

To Winnipeg: Kris Letang

That's because SC winners have top end talent AND depth the Pens have always had top end talent and no depth. Until this season when our coach decided to neuter the top end talent. So now they have zero chance.
- jfkst1

Good point (to Wrath's point). As far as coach/ style of play is concerned, this team is far too easy to play against. I don't think this group is taxing on their opponents. If you see the Pens on the calendar, you pretty much know it going to be an 'easy' night (IMO). No ice-bags afterwards. The team is not aggressive, they don't play a "heavy" game, they don't grind/ cycle in the OZ, they're not fast enough, and are not overly physical. The lack of these attributes do not translate to PO success (especially moving past R1/ R2). Plenty of time, however, to make adjustments + improvements. Let's see how their game looks Feb/Mar (through last 20-25 games).....

To Pittsburgh: Andrew Ladd and Mark Stuart

To Winnipeg: Kris Letang
- TheUltimateJet

Pens dont need a winger unless they move one too. Especially a rental winger.

Letang and perron for Myers and Ladd.

I'm mostly just dumping Letang becuase Myers is good but not that good. But thatd give you room to sign Buff. Plus Ladd and Perron are both rentals if traded so it only works if pens go full push for the SC this season.

Does anyone here honestly consider us a contender this year? We have a new young D core & half a team of forwards getting to know each other & a new system. Give this team a season together before nominating us the EC reps for the SCF in my opinion. JR has flipped a large portion of talent & the team is fighting for an identity - that's not a recipe for a champion - just look at past champions.

I'd be looking at teams (or majority of), that have been playing together for a few seasons as the candidates. The Pens need this year to sort themselves out & in saying that if MJ's contract is up this year then 1. They either resign him & let him continue his system or ask him to alter to suit the team or 2. Look at replacing him & getting a new system in to go all out next year.

If the players start playing well - forget the system 'faults', individually & start to be cohesive but not getting results then that may be the time for a change either way. At the moment there are too many questions about individual players form to assess the big picture.

Now for years we have complained about secondary scoring. The team has a winning % (don't care how at this stage), & if the goals are coming from 'secondary' scoring then our top players are going to reduce their output if the goal totals remain the same.

It's the old adage about champion teams being better than a team of champions. If the scoring is now covering more players & our top players aren't scoring as many then GREAT that's what wins Stanley as it's harder to shut down!!! If everyone wants depth players scoring & our top 2 winning the scoring titles then that's being unrealistic to say the least.

Someone earlier said Kane was on target for 125 points, name what the other elite scorers from seasons past are on target for - Seigan & Benn are all over it but how are Stamkos, Voracek, Ass grabber, Nash, Toews, Gaborik, Kopitar etc etc going??? All the PPG or close to it players aren't scoring this season as well as previous seasons - as I've said before just look at the standings & see who isn't even in a wold card spot!!!

Let's all stop whinging for a day & look at some positives - Dinger is going well so far now he's been given a go (thanks MJ for showing some confidence in Dinger as I realise it would be very difficult to play as well as Rob!!).

Now let's kick some heads & turn blue into purple!!!

Good point (to Wrath's point). As far as coach/ style of play is concerned, this team is far too easy to play against. I don't think this group is taxing on their opponents. If you see the Pens on the calendar, you pretty much know it going to be an 'easy' night (IMO). No ice-bags afterwards. The team is not aggressive, they don't play a "heavy" game, they don't grind/ cycle in the OZ, they're not fast enough, and are not overly physical. The lack of these attributes do not translate to PO success (especially moving past R1/ R2). Plenty of time, however, to make adjustments + improvements. Let's see how their game looks Feb/Mar (through last 20-25 games).....
- out_of_market

but the skill we have makes them pay in other ways - especially our PP

Does anyone here honestly consider us a contender this year?
- Aussiepenguin

Not even close. Outside of goaltending, this team has nothing better than average. Way below average right now in a number of categories.

Not even close. Outside of goaltending, this team has nothing better than average. Way below average right now in a number of categories.
- jfkst1

Every year till Sid and Geno are both 35 the Pens will be called contenders. Regardless of how incredibly average the team plays.

Every year till Sid and Geno are both 35 the Pens will be called contenders. Regardless of how incredibly average the team plays.
- Zac_O

At least in the other years the Pens were generally getting good play out of their best players.
For an education analogy, Johnston has turned a classroom of special ed and accelerated kids into a classroom that only appeals to the special ed kids at the accelerated kids' expense. Now I understand the frustration of American educators and parents.

How many games into the season was it when Therrien was fired? What the hell are they waiting for with this clown? Sidney Crosby, arguably the best player in the world, isn't scoring or registering points because the coach's system is fatally flawed and he's having to play some form of hockey that has him completely baffled. They're losing to teams they have no business losing to, and everyone on the roster (not named Fleury and Malkin) is playing poorly. What more does ownership need!? The whole world is screaming "THIS ISN'T WORKING!" and Johnston doesn't have a goddamn clue.
- simethos

What team did they lose to that they "had no business losing to?" League parity has never been this strong. Any team can literally beat any team on any given night. That is an illogical statement. If it were true then they would also be beating teams they had no business beating as well. The whole uncertainty of the outcome is sort of the reason why anyone tunes in. Another blog another day of verbal mentrasting on this message board. Same comments from the same people in the same stupid order.

I just found it. They were 27-25-5 when Therrien was fired. They're currently: 12-8-0. At the rate they're going, I'm pretty sure they'll match that record. They're in 5th place in the Conference. 2 points separates 4th place through 10th. The Pens can slip very quickly if they keep playing the way they are. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't want to be holding my breath in April to see if the Penguins make it into the playoffs.
- simethos

So what's the remedy? B!tch and complain on every board like an irrational, temper tantruming child or just stop watching and get into American idol or some bs like that where the outcome is more predetermined and easy on your nerves?

- j.boyd919

Hahahaha

To Pittsburgh: Andrew Ladd and Mark Stuart

To Winnipeg: Kris Letang
- TheUltimateJet

Letang and Kunitz for Buff, Ladd, Lowry

Here's what bothers me about this conversation and why it's so unbearable to even come to these type of sites anymore, fans(and even the bloggers) spend hours bashing, complaining about and blaming things they don't understand for what is happening on the ice. System, system, system is all you hear and it's becoming more evident by the article that most don't truly understand what systems are in hockey yet they blame them non stop. Systems are about positioning on the ice and players responsibilities at each individual position, examples of this are the 2-1-2 forecheck, the box +1 sag, the umbrella etc, things like stretch passes, blocking shots, pinching are philosophies not systems. Going back to game 1 of last season all the way through the last game the Pens have been running basically the same systems, what has changed is the philosophies they're employing within the system and those philosophies were adjusted around the midpoint of last season to compensate for the injuries. People like RW pointing out a heavier emphasis on blocking shots as a change to the "system" are doing nothing more than exhibiting an ignorance to the game, I guess that makes sense though because that won't show up in the stat line or on a graph and apparently that's all you need anymore to know hockey.
- jaydogg1974

It's so much easier for hacks like RW to rouse the herd with negativity nonstop than it is to be the voice of patience and reason. We always knew this was going to take time, this is a group that has no familiarity with eachother because of all the new faces this year and the injuries last year. I just don't see what these people are seeing. Yeah we are giving up to many penalties but we are great on the PK, clean up the discipline just a little bit and we're fine. It is not anywhere near as grave a situation as all these armchair experts claim it to be. All the Crosby is washed up talk is totally assinine too. Take your meds people you're hallucinating.

How close does Pouliot get to landing Tyson Barrie? And would you make that trade?
- YouMeAndDupuis9

I wouldn't make that trade, Barrie overachieved last year, out of nowhere and has hit his ceiling, gone through it actually. The Avs would be smart to move him instead of paying him at this point because he's going to get less and less effective.

Yes, 1 is in the NHL the other is not and gets arrested. Not sure if that trade would ever happen.
- sammy87

Do you work for TMZ or what there drama queen? Pouliot was never arrested. He got a fine for being intoxicated in public. Big deal!! It's on the same level as jaywalking. Ryan Oriely got a DUI a week after signing a huge deal with a new team. Pouliot and his friends took the f'ing bus. Figures YOU make more of a big deal about it than anyone should. You must be as much fun to be around as a herpes flair up. I don't know how anyone could stand to have any kind of conversation with you? You must get told to F off 7 times a day.

I don't think there is a good enough replacement to fire MJ right now. It would have been nice to offer a huge deal to Babcock, but that didn't happen. It would have killed a guy to get Lindy Ruff but that didn't happen either. Carlyle is out there, and so is that Bond-villain looking Boucher. Ron Wilson. Are you getting queasy yet? Craig Berube.

The Penguins are a team that needs a coach which will call attention to obvious things which are hard to say. The stars are all 10+ years into the NHL and think that things should come easier for them. A coach who doesn't use cutesy nicknames for his players. I'm sick of Kooney and Duper. A coach that will tell 87 that his CHL days are behind him in front of his teammates during the second intermission. The men I have in mind which could change this culture enough are still employed by NHL teams.

It's either that or get a coach who lets the forwards get out there and go free-for-all and try to make the Penguins "fun to watch" before being destroyed in the Eastern quarters.
- Johnny Wrath

Is that what happened last year, they go destroyed?? They definitely should have given the fact that 75% of the team was injured but I think they played pretty well and put up a good fight all things considered. The year before that they had not match for a star on the other teams mother dying, if she could have hung on another week they would have won that series and probably the next one and all you doom and gloomers would have to find a different angle to b!tch about.

I wouldn't make that trade, Barrie overachieved last year, out of nowhere and has hit his ceiling, gone through it actually. The Avs would be smart to move him instead of paying him at this point because he's going to get less and less effective.
- dcoms77

30/30 GMs would trade Pouliot for Barrie. IF Pouliot becomes the dman Barrie is it would be considered a good draft pick.

The fans of the Penguins really overrate what talent yields. For so many years its been "Pens have Sid and Geno, they can win the cup any year. It's the NHL's fault and puck luck that have stopped the Penguins from being successful."

Just look at some comparables to see how incredibly naive and pompous a Penguin fan may sound if overheard while reassuring themselves of the 87+71=Stanley rhetoric:

Canes have Eric and Jordan. If Cam doesn't lose it for us, we can totally win the Cup.

Man, if only the Canucks could get another winger for Daniel and Henrik, we would have won the Cup for sure.

Stupid NHL keeps letting teams with no talent put their hands all over Thornton and Marleau. They keep losing to the Kings because it's the NHLs fault. Jumbo Joe and Patty are getting short changed. They would have won by now if that wasn't true.

Duchene and MacKinnon are sick! They're fast and they can score. Varlamov is a Vezina candidate. They're going to mow down the Western Conference for sure.

This is what it looks and sounds like. It's incredibly gullible.
- Johnny Wrath

What a dumb comment top to bottom. I should just know better than to read anything you write. You thought getting Lovejoy for Despres was the best thing ever. You think they need to trade Letang. You think they should play Sid on the wing to " get him going!" What more should I expect?