Couturier is not Giroux. He has shown the potential already. Here is why he hasn't been placed in better situations. This team, with the way it's been constructed, has very little chance of winning, if they don't use Couturier like this coach, the coach before him, and the coach before that used him. Personally, I'd like to see the matchups put aside on occasion, and put Couturier in some better situations, and with better players, and see what happens.
- MJL

Right, three NHL coaches have looked at this guy and determined that this is how he should be used.

One reason I don't buy the struggles of Simmonds or Read being due entirely to playing with Couturier is because they're getting scoring chances. Couturier is dominating possession and generating chances when he is on the ice. Simmonds is playing with a top playmaker on the PP, and he's struggled to score there, too.

I'm not saying one way or another who the issue is, I'm saying that no matter what anyone's pet view is, they need more talent. Lack of offense is a team wide epidemic, and it's not just at 5 on 5.

I don't know if Couturier can be a scoring second line guy. There's evidence that he can, and evidence that he can't. He's still carrying a fairly heavy defensive role, which compounds the issue. Even if he is capable of doing it, the Flyers still need more talent.
- Jsaquella

Fair points all around. It's really a wonder they can skate on that ice with all the sawdust from the sticks they've been squeezing.

on that same note, what does Medvedev need to do to get back in?
- Jsaquella

Pass Russian secret intelligence to US security officials

Send a hooker to Hak's room and get pictures
- TheGreat28

I'll never understand it when a guy is basically buried while others who aren't as good or play as poorly as he did keep getting opportunities

My justification to it would be simple: nobody is scoring, and at some point not making a change is lunacy. Maybe it gets Voracek going. Maybe playing with Giroux gets Simmonds hot. It's not about rewarding Couturier, but simply trying an easy option to get guys going.
- Jsaquella

Yeah, agreed. Don't know if you backread, but splitting them up, trying Schenn at 2C or trying Schenn on Couturier's line are all three things I would immediately try.

And give Straka a chance.

I'll never understand it when a guy is basically buried while others who aren't as good or play as poorly as he did keep getting opportunities
- Jsaquella

Sadly, that was a staple of Berube's tenure as well. Or at least last year. I'm still not at the ripping Hak stage...but not really impressed either.

Fair points all around. It's really a wonder they can skate on that ice with all the sawdust from the sticks they've been squeezing.
- TheGreat28

Confidence is a huge issue. As soon as the second goal was scored, I noticed a dip in play.

Yeah, agreed. Don't know if you backread, but splitting them up, trying Schenn at 2C or trying Schenn on Couturier's line are all three things I would immediately try.

And give Straka a chance.
- TheGreat28

There's other options, but I haven't been happy with Schenn's play overall, and I'd try Simmonds with G before moving Schenn to C

Sadly, that was a staple of Berube's tenure as well. Or at least last year. I'm still not at the ripping Hak stage...but not really impressed either.
- TheGreat28

Quite a few coaches do it, I just don't get it.

If they do everything you say....give him offensive starts with Jake and another great offensive winger, take away some of his defensive responsibilities, play him with offensive dman and on the powerplay....maybe he becomes a top center in the league.

Maybe.

But then is the team better off as a whole? Because you also have then taken away the greatest area of contribution he makes to the team.

And, there is opportunity cost as well. Meaning, if you take Jake away from G, then you are hurting G's line. Or another offensive minded center.


- TheGreat28

No, I'll guarantee you that he won't become a top center in the league, that's not going to happen. He certainly can become a better offensive player and a fine 2 way 2nd line center that the Flyers can build around.
There is no way around it, he cannot, and will not reach the level you want him to reach, unless the situations he plays in are changed. You also cannot say he is not good enough to be a better scorer, unless he is given a legitimate chance to show that he can. This isn't about what's best for team, my point of view is about what is best for Couturier, and flawed perspective that most are looking at him from.

At some point, aren't you just forcing a role on him that hurts both the team and Couts because he's just not the man for it?


- TheGreat28

Don't know that he's not the man for it, he's never been given a consistent chance to show that he can be the man for it.

See, you are calling me (and others) out saying we're not being fair because we expect him to be a big producer AND also a shutdown center.

That's wrong. I'm not asking him to be a big point producer. I'm asking him to be a shutdown center, playing with above average wingers and having a very good offensive showing...for a third line center.

In other words, keep the same line - Read, Simmonds and Couturier - but slot them 3rd with a really good 2nd line and the G line basically as configured, and I think that actually HELPS Couturier because he'd have less pressure and would be within his comfort zone.
- TheGreat28

Well then you need to back up, because he has already been a shutdown center, and put up better than 3rd line center numbers at ES. He's put up 2nd line center numbers at ES, while being placed in an extreme shutdown role. That's how good he has been in the past.

Right, three NHL coaches have looked at this guy and determined that this is how he should be used.
- Dkos

Not based on his offensive ability or lack of, based on putting the team needs before Couturier's needs. That's what you're missing.

Sadly, that was a staple of Berube's tenure as well. Or at least last year. I'm still not at the ripping Hak stage...but not really impressed either.
- TheGreat28

my impression is that Hak is trying to make a point about playing the guys he feels are making the most effort. From his comments, about Manning, after last night's game it seems that Hak feels that the kid is busting his ass. I guess he values effort over performance?

Splitting up your skill is great when you have enough skill to split . right now you have 2 high end talents . split them up and it's even easier to shut them down until someone else starts producing.

Also Couturier should not be mentioned with Kane or Toewa and you know that.
- opeth_pa

It's the other way around, spreading your top line talent around makes it harder to get matchups, not easier.

Making the comment that Couturier should not be mentioned with Kane or Toews badly misses the point being made. The point is that a team's top all star winger does not have to play with it's #1 center.

Quite a few coaches do it, I just don't get it.
- Jsaquella

I understand how he must be pulling his hair out: the lines look good and can't score. Do you keep them together knowing this or split them apart thinking this might be more of a problem than "looking good"? Considering this has been a season long problem with the worst offense in the NHL, I don't know if you can just hope they start scoring. This isn't a couple week stretch. This is a season long stretch. Try something radical.

Not based on his offensive ability or lack of, based on putting the team needs before Couturier's needs. That's what you're missing.
- MJL

and what you are missing is that if he was a better offensive player he'd get more opportunity in that area. If he had the offensive ability that you feel he has why wouldn't the coaches give him the opportunity to use it? They don't want him to score goals? You can't tell me that they can't find another checking center to replace him. Maybe if they gave Schenn a chance to be a shut down center he'd be better at it than Couturier....they just haven't given Schenn a chance

I understand how he must be pulling his hair out: the lines look good and can't score. Do you keep them together knowing this or split them apart thinking this might be more of a problem than "looking good"? Considering this has been a season long problem with the worst offense in the NHL, I don't know if you can just hope they start scoring. This isn't a couple week stretch. This is a season long stretch. Try something radical.
- Mononoke

That part I get...if you had guys scoring near their career norms, the Flyers are actually in the playoff picture. But with the lack of finish, despite the recent streak of giving good overall play, it's got to be maddening

and what you are missing is that if he was a better offensive player he'd get more opportunity in that area. If he had the offensive ability that you feel he has why wouldn't the coaches give him the opportunity to use it? They don't want him to score goals? You can't tell me that they can't find another checking center to replace him. Maybe if they gave Schenn a chance to be a shut down center he'd be better at it than Couturier....they just haven't given Schenn a chance
- Dkos

That's false. I'll put it another way. Couturier is used how he is, because that is what's best for the team, not because they don't think he's a good offensive player. Of course they want him to score goals, but they need him to check top lines in a defensive role. His usage is a detriment to offensive success. The comment about Schenn is badly flawed logic. Schenn has shown zero signs of being a good defensive player, or a shutdown checker.

That's false. I'll put it another way. Couturier is used how he is, because that is what's best for the team, not because they don't think he's a good offensive player. Of course they want him to score goals, but they need him to check top lines in a defensive role. His usage is a detriment to offensive success. The comment about Schenn is badly flawed logic. Schenn has shown zero signs of being a good defensive player, or a shutdown checker.
- MJL

the comment about Schenn is a joke...thus the

There's no question in my mind that there is a physical issue with Medvedev, and it's not a coaches decision to not play him, despite what Hextall says. He may be medically cleared to play, but they're keeping him out for a reason. They just don't want to talk about it for some reason.

No, I'll guarantee you that he won't become a top center in the league, that's not going to happen. He certainly can become a better offensive player and a fine 2 way 2nd line center that the Flyers can build around.
There is no way around it, he cannot, and will not reach the level you want him to reach, unless the situations he plays in are changed. You also cannot say he is not good enough to be a better scorer, unless he is given a legitimate chance to show that he can. This isn't about what's best for team, my point of view is about what is best for Couturier, and flawed perspective that most are looking at him from.
- MJL

This is the basic problem. You keep trying to maximize Couturier's potential. I'm looking at what is best for the team. There just is always an excuse as to why he hasn't performed better. He needs better wingers. He needs offensive zone starts. He needs this, he needs that.

It's funny, the other day you said something that I was exactly going to say. Unfortunately, I was working long hours last week and couldn't really jump into the conversation. But you brought up the "it" factor. It was funny to me because I was going to say that a few days earlier about Couturier.

The reality is...he just doesn't seem to have "it". That certain knack for being in the right place, or making the right pass, that confidence to make the right deke at the right time. That thing that G has, and Jake, and Ghost. Look, a lot of guys on this team are missing "it". But the Flyers need a 2nd line center to have "it", but my reckoning. Maybe I'm wrong...maybe not.

Cout's does some other things really well. He's great at shielding the puck, carrying possession. He showed a little bit of a laser shot...a least in the game where he shut down Malkin and got that hattie. Haven't much of it since.

Well then you need to back up, because he has already been a shutdown center, and put up better than 3rd line center numbers at ES. He's put up 2nd line center numbers at ES, while being placed in an extreme shutdown role. That's how good he has been in the past.
- MJL

37 points may be 2nd line points in the Swedish league. Not on a team that will contend in the NHL.

my impression is that Hak is trying to make a point about playing the guys he feels are making the most effort. From his comments, about Manning, after last night's game it seems that Hak feels that the kid is busting his ass. I guess he values effort over performance?
- Dkos

I've thought the same thing. That seems to be a staple of "Flyers" hockey. That same "Flyers" hockey that has won all those cups in the last 40 years.

I would much prefer a guy who had all the talent in the world and maximized every drop of it every single night.

But I'm willing to live with a few highly-skilled guys who dog a play or two or maybe don't work so hard in practice, but make the three or four plays a game that make a difference come crunch time.

I guess the question comes down to what positions do you want replaced to jump start the guys that you do want to keep in place.

I think we can all agree that for line1 its the LW spot.

Line 2:If you are keeping Coots I think you need two new wingers. Konecny being the RW most likely.

Line 3: Can be greatly improved by guys like Raffl sliding down the depth chart into better suited positions to succeed.

It's a tall order for Hexy but he has quite a few guys to shop between now and the draft. (Read, LSchenn, Streit, Schultz)

This is the basic problem. You keep trying to maximize Couturier's potential. I'm looking at what is best for the team. There just is always an excuse as to why he hasn't performed better. He needs better wingers. He needs offensive zone starts. He needs this, he needs that.



- TheGreat28

Looking at what kind of player Couturier can be, and what he's faced with, and what is asked of him, and discussing the criticisms thrown at him, and what is best for the team, is two different conversations.

It's funny, the other day you said something that I was exactly going to say. Unfortunately, I was working long hours last week and couldn't really jump into the conversation. But you brought up the "it" factor. It was funny to me because I was going to say that a few days earlier about Couturier.

The reality is...he just doesn't seem to have "it". That certain knack for being in the right place, or making the right pass, that confidence to make the right deke at the right time. That thing that G has, and Jake, and Ghost. Look, a lot of guys on this team are missing "it". But the Flyers need a 2nd line center to have "it", but my reckoning. Maybe I'm wrong...maybe not.

Cout's does some other things really well. He's great at shielding the puck, carrying possession. He showed a little bit of a laser shot...a least in the game where he shut down Malkin and got that hattie. Haven't much of it since.


- TheGreat28

Couturier is never going to be a flashy player who stick handles and beats people one on one, or comes down the wing and beats goaltenders top shelf. He's not that kind of player. Doesn't mean he can't be a quality 2nd line center on a top team.

37 points may be 2nd line points in the Swedish league. Not on a team that will contend in the NHL.
- TheGreat28

You missed ES

By the way, Chicago won the Cup last year. Their 2nd line center had 37 points last year.

This is the basic problem. You keep trying to maximize Couturier's potential. I'm looking at what is best for the team. There just is always an excuse as to why he hasn't performed better. He needs better wingers. He needs offensive zone starts. He needs this, he needs that.

It's funny, the other day you said something that I was exactly going to say. Unfortunately, I was working long hours last week and couldn't really jump into the conversation. But you brought up the "it" factor. It was funny to me because I was going to say that a few days earlier about Couturier.

The reality is...he just doesn't seem to have "it". That certain knack for being in the right place, or making the right pass, that confidence to make the right deke at the right time. That thing that G has, and Jake, and Ghost. Look, a lot of guys on this team are missing "it". But the Flyers need a 2nd line center to have "it", but my reckoning. Maybe I'm wrong...maybe not.

Cout's does some other things really well. He's great at shielding the puck, carrying possession. He showed a little bit of a laser shot...a least in the game where he shut down Malkin and got that hattie. Haven't much of it since.



37 points may be 2nd line points in the Swedish league. Not on a team that will contend in the NHL.
- TheGreat28

to me the things he is missing are speed and aggressiveness. He's a good shutdown center. He plays a smart game, but he doesn't seem to have a hunger for goals.

It's the other way around, spreading your top line talent around makes it harder to get matchups, not easier.

Making the comment that Couturier should not be mentioned with Kane or Toews badly misses the point being made. The point is that a team's top all star winger does not have to play with it's #1 center.
- MJL

We can agree to disagree then..splitting your talent works great when you have multiple players that are marginally producing unlike the Flyers this year.

I'm all for splitting them and planning the whole offense around Couturier and if he doesn't produce after that is done I imagine their will be reasons given other than he just isn't a high end talent.