If you're already convinced after five games and one period of Couturier being used as the center of a 2nd scoring line that he's not up to it, surely the move would be to put BSchenn in the middle on the 2nd line?
- Feanor

I'm not taking shots but if I defend a Schenn, I have to be in love with them or related somehow. Just because a name tag I made the summer prior to the lockout. You defend Couturier, by clearly being a fan by having a photo of him as your aviator, nobody says a thing. It really depends who the collective majority has agreed they like more as a jury.

My opinion of Couturier is, he plays small for his size and might only his 20 goals once in his career, which admittingly might be due to how he's used. I think he has above average skill with the puck and fantastic vision but my hopes aren't high for his offensive upside. Being used to check never stopped a Jordan Staal, Mike Richards, Mike Peca or even a Michel Handzus. I wouldn't move Couturier for anything but he's been below average on the PP when given a shot. This is year 5 and regardless of how he's used, it's time to put up. Regardless of Brayden Schenn's role, he's a 20 goal guy.

BSchenn has scored 20 goals once. Even if you pro-rate the lockout year and his first season where he was injured he wasn't getting to 20. Last year he had 18 and Couturier had 15. Is Brayden going to get to 20 this year with Raffl stealing his top unit PP time?

No, I'm convinced of that based on about the last 100-125 games. You look at the stats, I look at the player.
- TheGreat28

Nah, you're just looking at point totals and ignoring usage and teammates.

It's genuinely hilarious how the response from some people to a six game stretch of terrible results without Couturier in the lineup are about how the Flyers need to reduce his role.

I personally think Couturier deserves more then 5 games to show what he can do in a more offensive role.

Do I think that he is going to produce at a higher rate then he has to this point in his career, no I personally do not and that is what I think makes him such a perfect 3 line center.

Again those who think he will be a great second line center and those who disagree need to have this conversation after the season ends but right now I do wish we had a few more dynamic players in the shape of another first line wing and a different second line center. Regardless of that like I said I am more than okay with letting him get a legit chance to prove what role he should play.

When a goaltender has a .938 save percentage on a given night but yields three goals and is charged with a regulation loss...
- bmeltzer

Flyers have tough decisions. the reality is your young D in the system may all be on the team in the next year or 2 but they are probably closer 3-4 years away from hopefully being good to great. So why not trade Giroux? get a package that inlcudes probably plus more, first round pick, a young roster player and top prospect. If the Jets offered. Hellybuck, first rounder 2016, Kyle Conner and Nic Petan. Would you not have to consider it?

Flyers have tough decisions. the reality is your young D in the system may all be on the team in the next year or 2 but they are probably closer 3-4 years away from hopefully being good to great. So why not trade Giroux? get a package that inlcudes probably plus more, first round pick, a young roster player and top prospect. If the Jets offered. Hellybuck, first rounder 2016, Kyle Conner and Nic Petan. Would you not have to consider it?
- Ross77

Giroux has an NMC, and possible a NWC as well.

Never been an analytics guy, but when you can't generate any shots and add that to the 6 turnstiles we've had on defense these past few games allowing our goalies to take more shots to the face than Lisa Ann equals a 5 game road losing streak .

I wonder how much longer Hextall will remain "patient "?
- Pelle31Forever

Yeah, that's another way in which this team is exatly the same as last year..I had forgotten that. They're once again putrid on the road.

(frank)ing Manning. Can't do anything right.
- Streit2ThePoint

should be suspended indefinitely imo

I cannot believe that people are actually blaming Hakstol for this teams inability to play.
- redcoat75

It's chrstal clear IMO that the issue is the players he's been dealt.

Last 5 games:
GF - 8
GA - 19


- Streit2ThePoint

They could use some man hands right about now.

should be suspended indefinitely imo
- BulliesPhan87

I'm thinking 70 NHL games should be enough. The suspension does not affect his AHL eligibility, though.

What are they suppose to do? Flyers need help up front but cant fign any FAs because of Vinny, Umberger and AMac. Flyers need better D but noting we can do until the young D blossom into top 4 Dmen. To make a trade you have to give to get. Flyers don't have much to give. To get rid of key pieces is just going to make the process longer. The team wont be any better.
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

This.

All we can do is sit here and be patient.

For three years.

Nah, you're just looking at point totals and ignoring usage and teammates.

It's genuinely hilarious how the response from some people to a six game stretch of terrible results without Couturier in the lineup are about how the Flyers need to reduce his role.
- Feanor

OK, to reiterate I'm not making a decision based on a six game stretch without Couturier. Nor is my opinion impacted by the handful of games he has played this year.

The difference is that you are using a very small sample size and an incomplete model, one that only has a couple of variables, to forecast a player's future production in a different scenario.

There is no statistical data to correlate what each additional percentage point in offensive zone starts will yield in offensive production, normalized across the entire league for players comparable to Couturier.

Even if there were, there is error. How many standard deviations is Couturier from the projected totals? To minimize the error, you bring in more variables.

Advanced stats are a leading indicator, at best.

Giroux has an NMC, and possible a NWC as well.
- Feanor

Flyers have tough decisions. the reality is your young D in the system may all be on the team in the next year or 2 but they are probably closer 3-4 years away from hopefully being good to great. So why not trade Giroux? get a package that inlcudes probably plus more, first round pick, a young roster player and top prospect. If the Jets offered. Hellybuck, first rounder 2016, Kyle Conner and Nic Petan. Would you not have to consider it?
- Ross77

Trading Giroux is an admission that this team is in a serious rebuilt and management refuses to want to admit it, at least publicly probably for fear of lost ticket sales. Also Giorux is the face of the franchise. At lot of fans would be upset if he was moved believing that he is one of the top 5 players in the league. These fans also delude themselves into thinking he will remain a top player #1 center in the league well into his thirties when the Flyers will be good again. So moving him could risk ticket sales.

Personally I have no issue trading anyone off of this team depending on the return. The odds are against Voracek and Giroux being elite 1st line talent by the time the team is good again. So a full tank rebuild doesn't scare me because the Flyers are going to have to draft elite players to get out of this mess so they might as well pick higher in the draft.

I personally think Couturier deserves more then 5 games to show what he can do in a more offensive role.

Do I think that he is going to produce at a higher rate then he has to this point in his career, no I personally do not and that is what I think makes him such a perfect 3 line center.

Again those who think he will be a great second line center and those who disagree need to have this conversation after the season ends but right now I do wish we had a few more dynamic players in the shape of another first line wing and a different second line center. Regardless of that like I said I am more than okay with letting him get a legit chance to prove what role he should play.
- opeth_pa

I agree, it's an end-of-year discussion. But we'll be having a lot of end-of-year discussions because the in-year discussions are going to suck

Oh, if they only had a big center in the lineup, who was responsible defensively, yet, still helped drive possession! That would be something, wouldn't it?

I cannot believe that people are actually blaming Hakstol for this teams inability to play.
- redcoat75

Well we certainly can't blame Holmgren. Who do we blame? The Easter Bunny?

should be suspended indefinitely imo
- BulliesPhan87

Oh, if they only had a big center in the lineup, who was responsible defensively, yet, still helped drive possession! That would be something, wouldn't it?


- johndewar

Well, I think that's a big reason we've been so bad without him.. 1-4-1 now. I know he doesn't score a ton, but the loss of his contribution seems clear with the record. This is not a deep team at all because of the big money we pay sad players like Vinny and Mac. We lose cooter, we basically plug someone in and absorb losses.

Oh, if they only had a big center in the lineup, who was responsible defensively, yet, still helped drive possession! That would be something, wouldn't it?


- johndewar

He'll be back.

Well, I think that's a big reason we've been so bad without him.. 1-4-1 now. I know he doesn't score a ton, but the loss of his contribution seems clear with the record. This is not a deep team at all because of the big money we pay sad players like Vinny and Mac. We lose cooter, we basically plug someone in and absorb losses.
- Hextall271

I think it shows how valuable a guy like Couturier is, who can do multiple positive things for your team even when he's not scoring.

I'm not taking shots but if I defend a Schenn, I have to be in love with them or related somehow. Just because a name tag I made the summer prior to the lockout. You defend Couturier, by clearly being a fan by having a photo of him as your aviator, nobody says a thing. It really depends who the collective majority has agreed they like more as a jury.

My opinion of Couturier is, he plays small for his size and might only his 20 goals once in his career, which admittingly might be due to how he's used. I think he has above average skill with the puck and fantastic vision but my hopes aren't high for his offensive upside. Being used to check never stopped a Jordan Staal, Mike Richards, Mike Peca or even a Michel Handzus. I wouldn't move Couturier for anything but he's been below average on the PP when given a shot. This is year 5 and regardless of how he's used, it's time to put up. Regardless of Brayden Schenn's role, he's a 20 goal guy.
- SuperSchennBros

But for the most parts when you consider usage and the fact that the leading scorer in the league last year had 87 points, his point totals are not all that different when compared to the league average for when they played. Plus Staal and Richards got plenty of PP time.

There has to be perspective.

Trading Giroux is an admission that this team is in a serious rebuilt and management refuses to want to admit it, at least publicly probably for fear of lost ticket sales. Also Giorux is the face of the franchise. At lot of fans would be upset if he was moved believing that he is one of the top 5 players in the league. These fans also delude themselves into thinking he will remain a top player #1 center in the league well into his thirties when the Flyers will be good again. So moving him could risk ticket sales.

Personally I have no issue trading anyone off of this team depending on the return. The odds are against Voracek and Giroux being elite 1st line talent by the time the team is good again. So a full tank rebuild doesn't scare me because the Flyers are going to have to draft elite players to get out of this mess so they might as well pick higher in the draft.
- psuhockey

Very good points. As much as I hate seeing this team suck, I think hexy has them on the right path with the prospects they have. The issue that concerns me as you mention is that the timing might not work out. Some of the core guys including Jake G, Mase Simmonds will most likely be moving out of their prime in 3-4 years when the D prospects are really contributing. That's a huge problem and they may need to switch gears somewhat to balance things.

That sucks. You could tell the way he was holding his shoulder skating off there was a problem.

Just an unfortunate play all around. One I am amazed doesn't happen more often with the speed of these players and the lack of ability to obstruct.
- MBFlyerfan

He's pretty tough. He was in pain, but he got up and skated off and actually took a seat on the bench before he left.

Not gonna name names, but I don't think we'd have seen the same thing with a different "generational player" when he was 18.