Bennett blows too. Glad you are back.
- Oneonta Penguin

Beau is such an enigma to me, he looks bigger this year; physically bigger. Which is what he needed to do, but his game doesn't reflect him being stronger. I just don't get it, I wonder how long they give him to make a mark.

I'm the last person to report anyone guy
- rangerdanger94

I can only go by what I was straight out told, so take a hike. It's October tool, stay in your own yard.


F

I can only go by what I was straight out told, so take a hike. It's October tool, stay in your own yard.


F
- freeBartley

Missed you too Barts

F Kessel

I haven't discredited all stats if that's what you are saying (which you have). I have & am discrediting Corsi & all stats generated from Corsi as invalid. I've said this many times.

Now why is a scoring stat accepted - because it is a real event. A player that shoots the puck on goal - again an actual event. A player hits another player - yes once again a real event. A positive Corsi event is not a 'real' event for 4 of the 5 players on the ice. It's a false economy, it's the same as plus minus. If you want to build a team around players that were on the ice when another player shot the puck then be my guest.

Stats from last season assists you how exactly if the team has changed, the players are not the same as the previous season, & they may not be playing the same way? Stats from 2 seasons ago help in what way? 3 seasons? Etc etc???

The games most recent define how players are playing now. They give the best indication of who is playing to what ability. Who was playing injured last season? How did that affect the play? Who played injured last game? Sidney Crosby has a gastro bug (for example - I don't know if he has or not), for the last 2 games & is still relatively weak from it for next game. Who will the D watch the most Sid or a fighting fit Philbo Baggins? I can go on but do you get where I'm coming from. If you want to win in a team sport, it is very dangerous to rely on historic data. The most recent data usually gives you the best information to win now.

Nash for the Rags scored a million last season then disappeared. He hasn't scored yet this season, are the Rags going to look at trading him or keep him due to his hero chart if he can't score this season?
- Aussiepenguin

While I agree with a lot of what you said which the exception of a corsi event not being a real event. A shot attempt is rarely generated solely by the person taking the shot on goal, even actual goals are not solely generated by the player scoring or even the players assisting, all 5 players on the ice can have a direct or indirect effect on the shot or goal being generated. Sometimes its a great defensive play at the other end that started the chain of events that generated a positive result, sometimes is a player driving a lane that opened up the space for the positive event to occur, we all know what a good screen on the goalie can do but unless that player tips the puck in he will never show up on the scoresheet even though he probably had a greater effect on the goal being scored than the player who shot the puck. There's no denying that Corsi is an abstract stat and should never be used as a sole determination of performance but much of the success in hockey is also created in the abstract by what happens away from the puck that allows the action with the puck to occur, there will never be a truly accurate way to measure the abstract effects in hockey but because the abstract has such a huge impact on the tangible results in hockey any little clue we can get to help understand that can be immeasurably valuable if used properly.

Touching on what I was talking about last night, just imagine if Tangers D had the element of fear, of getting crushed every once in a while coming through center; besides by Letang himself.

Obviously Lovejoy has been trying to be more physical but it just looks awkward and unnatural and will often result in 2 min or being trapped. So MJ obviously wants some level of physicality from his blue line, he just doesn't have the right tools for that. One physical Dman would change the dynamic of our blue line.

Having a physical presence back there would have helped so much last year in the playoffs, Tanger going down and losing Despres really killed our D. last year Letang was a piece of Paul•Marts D; a very important part but still just a part. things have changed Tangers D could be and should be very impressive.

Touching on what I was talking about last night, just imagine if Tangers D had the element of fear, of getting crushed every once in a while coming through center; besides by Letang himself.

Obviously Lovejoy has been trying to be more physical but it just looks awkward and unnatural and will often result in 2 min or being trapped. So MJ obviously wants some level of physicality from his blue line, he just doesn't have the right tools for that. One physical Dman would change the dynamic of our blue line.

Having a physical presence back there would have helped so much last year in the playoffs, Tanger going down and losing Despres really killed our D. last year Letang was a piece of Paul•Marts D; a very important part but still just a part. things have changed Tangers D could be and should be very impressive.
- freeBartley

We only want skill. No intangibles they are outdated. No need for knuckledraggers on this team.

#chasethecorsi

We only want skill. No intangibles they are outdated. No need for knuckledraggers on this team.

#chasethecorsi


- Reverend Killtaker

I'm not asking for Doug Murray, but we lost our first 2 games because we could not clear the crease or slow down quick teams in the neutral zone.


F Tim Hortons

I'm not asking for Doug Murray, but we lost our first 2 games because we could not clear the crease or slow down quick teams in the neutral zone.


F Tim Hortons
- freeBartley

You know that and I know that, but we are all supposed to drink the kool-aid of that which is skill. intangibles cough is a dying commodity and its soooo three years ago.

You know that and I know that, but we are all supposed to drink the kool-aid of that which is skill. intangibles cough is a dying commodity and its soooo three years ago.
- Reverend Killtaker

It will happen, MJ and Good Ole JR will bring the Cup home. It was obvious to me that MJ asked Lovejoy to be more physical in the Cyotes game. MJ is obviously searching for physicality which is great to see.

It will happen, MJ and Good Ole JR will bring the Cup home. It was obvious to me that MJ asked Lovejoy to be more physical in the Cyotes game. MJ is obviously searching for physicality which is great to see.
- freeBartley

Wait, shouldn't this be in italics, aka the "sarcasm font"?

Touching on what I was talking about last night, just imagine if Tangers D had the element of fear, of getting crushed every once in a while coming through center; besides by Letang himself.

Obviously Lovejoy has been trying to be more physical but it just looks awkward and unnatural and will often result in 2 min or being trapped. So MJ obviously wants some level of physicality from his blue line, he just doesn't have the right tools for that. One physical Dman would change the dynamic of our blue line.

Having a physical presence back there would have helped so much last year in the playoffs, Tanger going down and losing Despres really killed our D. last year Letang was a piece of Paul•Marts D; a very important part but still just a part. things have changed Tangers D could be and should be very impressive.
- freeBartley

I still struggle trying to figure out where people get this idea that hitting and physicality has any impact on winning or losing hockey games, the results in the wins/loss column surely don't point to them having any effect. Last season only 1 of the top 5 teams in total hits made the playoffs(LA #2, Tor #3, Phil #4 and CLB #5 all missed) while the 3 worst teams in the league(Minn, Chic, Det) all made the playoffs, actually 8 of the 10 worst teams in total hits made the playoffs, out of the final 4 teams last year only Anaheim ranked in the top 10 in hits(Ana #10, NYR #19, TB #22, Chic #29). Even looking at the early part of this season, 3 of the top 5 teams in hits/gm have yet to win a game(NYI, Phil, Bos). There's more than enough evidence out there to show that hitting has absolutely no effect on the outcome of games and if anything the less physical teams are actually fairing better and winning more games.

I still struggle trying to figure out where people get this idea that hitting and physicality has any impact on winning or losing hockey games, the results in the wins/loss column surely don't point to them having any effect. Last season only 1 of the top 5 teams in total hits made the playoffs(LA #2, Tor #3, Phil #4 and CLB #5 all missed) while the 3 worst teams in the league(Minn, Chic, Det) all made the playoffs, actually 8 of the 10 worst teams in total hits made the playoffs, out of the final 4 teams last year only Anaheim ranked in the top 10 in hits(Ana #10, NYR #19, TB #22, Chic #29). Even looking at the early part of this season, 3 of the top 5 teams in hits/gm have yet to win a game(NYI, Phil, Bos). There's more than enough evidence out there to show that hitting has absolutely no effect on the outcome of games and if anything the less physical teams are actually fairing better and winning more games.
- jaydogg1974

Wait please tell me your kidding me??

You don't think that being hit coming through the neutral zone would lessen teams chances of getting rush goals?

Or that clearing bodies in the crease would lessen chances of getting garbage rebound goals???

Maybe you misunderstand me, I'm not asking for a line up of bangers ( which I would love), but you can't possibly deny we need some physicality on our back end.

sweet fancy Moses I've been gone too long obviously.

Wait please tell me your kidding me??

You don't think that being hit coming through the neutral zone would lessen teams chances of getting rush goals?

Or that clearing bodies in the crease would lessen chances of getting garbage rebound goals???

Maybe you misunderstand me, I'm not asking for a line up of bangers ( which I would love), but you can't possibly deny we need some physicality on our back end.

sweet fancy Moses I've been gone too long obviously.
- freeBartley

I did take your original post as saying we needed more bangers and I'm not saying that some level of physicality isn't necessary. I was just pointing out how "hitting" has no direct correlation on winning/lossing. Some level of physicality is necessary in the game since it is a contact sport but both of those issues you mentioned can just as easily be solved by good play and proper positioning, taking away time & space with good gap control and body position is more effective slowing down the rush than hitting is because in most cases looking for the hit ends in taking the hitter out of position, gap control and proper body position also is the best way to defend against the cycle which is what usually leads to a team having to clear their net front, both of those aspects require contact and some level of physicality to accomplish but don't require "hitting" to be effective. Clearing the crease does require a bit more physicality but can be accomplished just as effectively by a smaller player as a bigger player with again proper body positioning. A level of physicality will always be necessary in the NHL but as the game gets faster by the year, skill as in skating and positioning will continue to widen the gap between skill and physicality because at the end of the day you can't hit something you can't catch.

I still struggle trying to figure out where people get this idea that hitting and physicality has any impact on winning or losing hockey games, the results in the wins/loss column surely don't point to them having any effect. Last season only 1 of the top 5 teams in total hits made the playoffs(LA #2, Tor #3, Phil #4 and CLB #5 all missed) while the 3 worst teams in the league(Minn, Chic, Det) all made the playoffs, actually 8 of the 10 worst teams in total hits made the playoffs, out of the final 4 teams last year only Anaheim ranked in the top 10 in hits(Ana #10, NYR #19, TB #22, Chic #29). Even looking at the early part of this season, 3 of the top 5 teams in hits/gm have yet to win a game(NYI, Phil, Bos). There's more than enough evidence out there to show that hitting has absolutely no effect on the outcome of games and if anything the less physical teams are actually fairing better and winning more games.
- jaydogg1974

Not all teams can win on skill alone or physicality alone. There needs to be a balance. Case in point pittsburgh since players like Orpik Bortuzzo or Despres left the team Pitts skill has rarely taken over a game and it's especially proven this season the last playoff set and the last quarter of last season. If our skill players can't put anything together then this oh so amazingly put together team built on skill alone is going to flounder until Crosby malkin Letang Maatta get their offensive heads out of their arses.

Wait please tell me your kidding me??

You don't think that being hit coming through the neutral zone would lessen teams chances of getting rush goals?

Or that clearing bodies in the crease would lessen chances of getting garbage rebound goals???

Maybe you misunderstand me, I'm not asking for a line up of bangers ( which I would love), but you can't possibly deny we need some physicality on our back end.

sweet fancy Moses I've been gone too long obviously.
- freeBartley

You sure have. Good with another sane person or rather insane in a good way

I did take your original post as saying we needed more bangers and I'm not saying that some level of physicality isn't necessary. I was just pointing out how "hitting" has no direct correlation on winning/lossing. Some level of physicality is necessary in the game since it is a contact sport but both of those issues you mentioned can just as easily be solved by good play and proper positioning, taking away time & space with good gap control and body position is more effective slowing down the rush than hitting is because in most cases looking for the hit ends in taking the hitter out of position, gap control and proper body position also is the best way to defend against the cycle which is what usually leads to a team having to clear their net front, both of those aspects require contact and some level of physicality to accomplish but don't require "hitting" to be effective. Clearing the crease does require a bit more physicality but can be accomplished just as effectively by a smaller player as a bigger player with again proper body positioning. A level of physicality will always be necessary in the NHL but as the game gets faster by the year, skill as in skating and positioning will continue to widen the gap between skill and physicality because at the end of the day you can't hit something you can't catch.
- jaydogg1974

I have stubbornly come around to 4 skill lines, which was kicking heroin hard for me. But Lovejoy is the epitome of what you described, atleast that's how he is perceived by the Pens. I would be happy if the Rev played a little
more like Cole, quick but can hit; Lovejoy really just can't hit at all, neither can Scuds, and Maatta is far more valuable skating than he would be if he hit more often. I just want a slight balance to the skill we have with some
Neutral zone and net front toughness.

Not all teams can win on skill alone or physicality alone. There needs to be a balance. Case in point pittsburgh since players like Orpik Bortuzzo or Despres left the team Pitts skill has rarely taken over a game and it's especially proven this season the last playoff set and the last quarter of last season. If our skill players can't put anything together then this oh so amazingly put together team built on skill alone is going to flounder until Crosby malkin Letang Maatta get their offensive heads out of their arses.
- Reverend Killtaker

I completely disagree. Pittsburgh's biggest issue over the last couple of seasons has been their stubbornness to be balanced and not commit to one side or the other. Their attempts to have skill in the top 6 and with half their D corp and have physicality in their bottom 6 and other half of their D corp has left the team with no identity, they end up with skill players try to be physical players to match the rest of the roster or physical players trying to play a skill game to match the stars on the roster. Even now they continue that mindset by keeping Lovejoy and Scuderi in the lineup for their "defensive abilities". Until the organization finally commits to either being a skill team or being a physical team the will continue to struggle finding an identity and with a core that consists of Crosby, Malkin, Kessel and Letang trying to be a physical team would be a mistake.

I have stubbornly come around to 4 skill lines, which was kicking heroin hard for me. But Lovejoy is the epitome of what you described, atleast that's how he is perceived by the Pens. I would be happy if the Rev played a little
more like Cole, quick but can hit; Lovejoy really just can't hit at all, neither can Scuds, and Maatta is far more valuable skating than he would be if he hit more often. I just want a slight balance to the skill we have with some
Neutral zone and net front toughness.
- freeBartley

Lovejoy is nothing like what I'm describing, he's actually the epitome of what I describe as what's wrong with the current setup. Neither Lovejoy nor Scuderi has the skating ability to play as this team wants to play and their continued use in the lineup will just further the issues from season past. If this team is going to focus on a skill game, I strongly believe with their core the should, then they need to have players in the lineup that can play that type of game, not players who are a complete contradiction to that style of game. Paul Martin would be the epitome of the type of player I'm talking about, couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat but extremely effective against the rush and the cycle because his skill and skating ability allowed him to always have good body position and strong gap control. I actually believe Lovejoy could probably survive in a sheltered 3rd pairing role with either Dumoulin or Clendening but the other needs to be in the top 4 and Scuderi(who I don't think is nearly as bad as most make him out to be, he just doesn't fit with how this team needs play) needs to be in the box watching.

The sooner the Pens fully commit to be a skilled team and getting their D pairs set up properly, the sooner this team will start dominating play and winning games. he D pairs should be Letang/Maata, Cole/Clendening or Dumoulin, Lovejoy/Clendening or Dumoulin.

The D pairs should be Letang/Maata, Cole/Clendening or Dumoulin, Lovejoy/Clendening or Dumoulin.
- jaydogg1974

I respectfully disagree ... I think they should be:

Letang/Scuderi
Maatta/Scuderi
Cole/Scuderi
Scuderi/Scuderi

We need that veteran presence and shot suppression excellence on every pairing.

I still struggle trying to figure out where people get this idea that hitting and physicality has any impact on winning or losing hockey games, the results in the wins/loss column surely don't point to them having any effect. Last season only 1 of the top 5 teams in total hits made the playoffs(LA #2, Tor #3, Phil #4 and CLB #5 all missed) while the 3 worst teams in the league(Minn, Chic, Det) all made the playoffs, actually 8 of the 10 worst teams in total hits made the playoffs, out of the final 4 teams last year only Anaheim ranked in the top 10 in hits(Ana #10, NYR #19, TB #22, Chic #29). Even looking at the early part of this season, 3 of the top 5 teams in hits/gm have yet to win a game(NYI, Phil, Bos). There's more than enough evidence out there to show that hitting has absolutely no effect on the outcome of games and if anything the less physical teams are actually fairing better and winning more games.
- jaydogg1974

Hockey, is a game w/ on-ice spatial dynamics - players either defend or claim areas of the ice. Defending your blue-line, or in front of your net, requires a physical presence. These are fundamentals of the game. The two most highly successful ways of scoring at the NHL level are controlled zone entries and 2nd chance goals. How better to deter them than a physical presence on D? If a team lacks said physical attributes, then opponents are going to exploit it. Imagine playing a game against an appointment that doesn't generate a single ounce of fear in your team. How do you think that venture is going to turn out? Your squad is going alpha dog mode. Checking serves it's rightful place in the game.

Hockey, is a game w/ on-ice spatial dynamics - players either defend or claim areas of the ice. Defending your blue-line, or in front of your net, requires a physical presence. These are fundamentals of the game. The two most highly successful ways of scoring at the NHL level are controlled zone entries and 2nd chance goals. How better to deter them than a physical presence on D? If a team lacks said physical attributes, then opponents are going to exploit it. Imagine playing a game against an appointment that doesn't generate a single ounce of fear in your team. How do you think that venture is going to turn out? Your squad is going alpha dog mode. Checking serves it's rightful place in the game.
- out_of_market

100% on point there is not one player with the exception of 72 in the opposing blue painter that as an opponent that I am concerned with. Nobody to keep the opposing team honest. Lackluster attempts to control the blue line little to no protection in front of the net minder forcing 29 to be acrobatic when he shouldn't have to be and no fear going into the dirty areas. If Lovejoy is going to change his game to be that type of player I'm laughing with cynicism this entire season because that will be the only joy to have with this all skill team

#chasingthecorsi

I still struggle trying to figure out where people get this idea that hitting and physicality has any impact on winning or losing hockey games, the results in the wins/loss column surely don't point to them having any effect. Last season only 1 of the top 5 teams in total hits made the playoffs(LA #2, Tor #3, Phil #4 and CLB #5 all missed) while the 3 worst teams in the league(Minn, Chic, Det) all made the playoffs, actually 8 of the 10 worst teams in total hits made the playoffs, out of the final 4 teams last year only Anaheim ranked in the top 10 in hits(Ana #10, NYR #19, TB #22, Chic #29). Even looking at the early part of this season, 3 of the top 5 teams in hits/gm have yet to win a game(NYI, Phil, Bos). There's more than enough evidence out there to show that hitting has absolutely no effect on the outcome of games and if anything the less physical teams are actually fairing better and winning more games.
- jaydogg1974

If you have a high number of hits the chances are you don't have the puck. Hitting brings a physical intimidation element into the game. You don't have to be the highest hitting team but when your opponent knows if he is in a corner & going to get slammed he 99% of the time will play a different game to a game where he knows he won't get hit.

While I agree with a lot of what you said which the exception of a corsi event not being a real event. A shot attempt is rarely generated solely by the person taking the shot on goal, even actual goals are not solely generated by the player scoring or even the players assisting, all 5 players on the ice can have a direct or indirect effect on the shot or goal being generated. Sometimes its a great defensive play at the other end that started the chain of events that generated a positive result, sometimes is a player driving a lane that opened up the space for the positive event to occur, we all know what a good screen on the goalie can do but unless that player tips the puck in he will never show up on the scoresheet even though he probably had a greater effect on the goal being scored than the player who shot the puck. There's no denying that Corsi is an abstract stat and should never be used as a sole determination of performance but much of the success in hockey is also created in the abstract by what happens away from the puck that allows the action with the puck to occur, there will never be a truly accurate way to measure the abstract effects in hockey but because the abstract has such a huge impact on the tangible results in hockey any little clue we can get to help understand that can be immeasurably valuable if used properly.
- jaydogg1974

I agree that some shots like goals have assists. I would take the Corsi stat a little better if only the players involved with the play received a positive result (the same way assists are given for goals). Majority of the time there are players on the ice that have absolutely zero impact in the play. Just being on the ice is a presence yes, but that doesn't always translate into active participation.

Your last point is important because you're right, at the moment the results don't show the true impact certain players have on the play bacause the data hasn't been extracted (yet), but all the Analytics people are just accepting Corsi due to it being the only thing you have - even though it's fatally floored as an accurate statistic.

Yay scuderi